Braille, how many use it?


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Adriani Botez
 

I used to have a braille disply during my studies and that was really nice
because I had to work with LateX for mathematical content. But also because
sometimes I just wanted to lean back and lern for exams without seating in
front of a machine. But now for my work I am much faster with a screen
reader and in fact I have discovered that I can learn much more in a short
time than I could with a braille display. It is because I use the speech
rate at a quite high level. But I would really be interested in a good
developed multi line braille disply, say like 16 lines or so. That could
display much more braile at once and could show up document structures or
even grafics. So I follow the developments in this sector hoping that there
will be a realistic solution for that anytime.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 13:42
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Mallard
 

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us braille displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do, but on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie

Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



Adriani Botez
 

In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do, but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie

Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.




Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

I've used braille since I got my first braille display 10 years ago. I could probably be without it, but right now, I would not choose to. Adding up, say, three sets of 8 binary digits all having different positions for their binary points is not something I really want to be doing in my head while relying on speech. Perfecting the braille support in NVDA is one of the few major things that really needs to be done to shore up NVDA. I'm glad it's being addressed, but even at that, it's been essentially functional for years.

Best,

Erik

On October 3, 2017 7:42:29 AM "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Damien Sykes-Lindley <damien@...>
 

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Robert Mendoza
 

Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do, but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.








Antony Stone
 

Braille displays are indeed very expensive to buy new, but they remain
manufactured and available because the majority of purchases are by employers
or government education departments who are required to provide funding for
disabled people under many countries' anti-discrimination laws.

That said, I have had good success buying second-hand displays on eBay,
because no employer or education funder will consider supplying a second-hand
device, but they can still be passed on in a good working condition after
someone leaves their job or comes to the end of their training.

I do wish lower-cost new Braille displays were available, but so long as the
majority of the customers are organisations which can afford them and don't
question the price, they will continue to pay current prices for them in just
the same way as they pay for Jaws licences, instead of funding the development
of NVDA and then getting as many copies as they like for free afterwards.


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 15:14:41, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech
user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive
and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian
--
"Life is just a lot better if you feel you're having 10 [small] wins a day
rather than a [big] win every 10 years or so."

- Chris Hadfield, former skiing (and ski racing) instructor

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


 

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who
can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up
print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on
making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too
expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound
to come down and many get those devices the government or private
programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the
person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do,
but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.












Adriani Botez
 

How about orbit reader? It is the cheapest braille display. Did they manage
to start shipping?


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Antony
Stone
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 15:28
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille displays are indeed very expensive to buy new, but they remain
manufactured and available because the majority of purchases are by
employers or government education departments who are required to provide
funding for disabled people under many countries' anti-discrimination laws.

That said, I have had good success buying second-hand displays on eBay,
because no employer or education funder will consider supplying a
second-hand device, but they can still be passed on in a good working
condition after someone leaves their job or comes to the end of their
training.

I do wish lower-cost new Braille displays were available, but so long as the
majority of the customers are organisations which can afford them and don't
question the price, they will continue to pay current prices for them in
just the same way as they pay for Jaws licences, instead of funding the
development of NVDA and then getting as many copies as they like for free
afterwards.


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 15:14:41, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian
--
"Life is just a lot better if you feel you're having 10 [small] wins a day
rather than a [big] win every 10 years or so."

- Chris Hadfield, former skiing (and ski racing) instructor

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC
me.


Antony Stone
 

http://www.aph.org/orbit-reader-20/ still says "Available soon".

Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 15:43:34, Adriani Botez wrote:

How about orbit reader? It is the cheapest braille display. Did they manage
to start shipping?


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Antony
Stone
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 15:28
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille displays are indeed very expensive to buy new, but they remain
manufactured and available because the majority of purchases are by
employers or government education departments who are required to provide
funding for disabled people under many countries' anti-discrimination laws.

That said, I have had good success buying second-hand displays on eBay,
because no employer or education funder will consider supplying a
second-hand device, but they can still be passed on in a good working
condition after someone leaves their job or comes to the end of their
training.

I do wish lower-cost new Braille displays were available, but so long as
the majority of the customers are organisations which can afford them and
don't question the price, they will continue to pay current prices for
them in just the same way as they pay for Jaws licences, instead of
funding the development of NVDA and then getting as many copies as they
like for free afterwards.


Antony.

On Tuesday 03 October 2017 at 15:14:41, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian
--
"Life is just a lot better if you feel you're having 10 [small] wins a day
rather than a [big] win every 10 years or so."

- Chris Hadfield, former skiing (and ski racing) instructor

Please reply to the
list; please *don't* CC me.





--
Heisenberg, Gödel, and Chomsky walk in to a bar.
Heisenberg says, "Clearly this is a joke, but how can we work out if it's
funny or not?"
Gödel replies, "We can't know that because we're inside the joke."
Chomsky says, "Of course it's funny. You're just saying it wrong."

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Damien Sykes-Lindley <damien@...>
 

Hi,
I don't see anyone saying that we should give up braille for technology. That seemed to happen naturally in my case because I had no need to read it, so I never did. Only recently when trying to play a game I realised just how screwed my braille skills actually are.
In fact, I totally agree that braille would be better in some areas of work, programming and large calculations being two such areas. On the other hand, try asking for a disability/assistive technology grant over here and see if you can break the record for the longest fight and largest number of letdowns... I've just about given up hope on both the government and the RNIB. Bleh.
Cheers.
Damien.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who
can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up
print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on
making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too
expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound
to come down and many get those devices the government or private
programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the
person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do,
but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.












erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Braille display prices have dropped by hhalf over the past 10 years. Still expensive, but not a diar case.

Braille display technology hasn't changed substantially in 30 years. Manufacturing costs are down, especially on devices manufactured in industrial countries like China. Government funding is under heavy attack. Plus, the rise of mobile has lead to the true emergence of low cost small displays. It's becoming common for a braille user to have a 40 cell display ffor their computer and a 14 or 16 cell for their mobile device. And we're still not paying what we did 10 years ago.

This may not be a comfort to you if you have no money and no recourse at all to get a braille display, but things are getting better.

Best,

Erik

On October 3, 2017 9:15:43 AM "Damien Sykes-Lindley" <damien@dcpendleton.plus.com> wrote:

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech
user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Adriani Botez
 

It makes sense anyhow to learn braille and to maintain the ability to read it. We should stay independent. Think about what would happen if there is a massive earth quake in your area and you don't get internet or even electricity for weeks. You still need an alternative way to communicate with others, at least with other blind or visually impaired people by sending a telegram or a letter in braille.

At the same time, I wish to see kind of improvements on this alphabeth. I mean, are there any experiments including optimization of letter size or so? Maybe another type of braille which can be printed on thiner paper or kind of smaller points to win more place on a page? That would be actually amazing. I mean at least people who already learned braille could certainly adapt to smaller letters. There are abreviations though, but they are different from language to language which is quite annoying in my view, especially for new braillers.

Best
Adriani




-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Damien Sykes-Lindley
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 16:06
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,
I don't see anyone saying that we should give up braille for technology.
That seemed to happen naturally in my case because I had no need to read it, so I never did. Only recently when trying to play a game I realised just how screwed my braille skills actually are.
In fact, I totally agree that braille would be better in some areas of work, programming and large calculations being two such areas. On the other hand, try asking for a disability/assistive technology grant over here and see if you can break the record for the longest fight and largest number of letdowns... I've just about given up hope on both the government and the RNIB. Bleh.
Cheers.
Damien.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound to come down and many get those devices the government or private programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the
health insurance company. And very often is being individually judged
if the person gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time
period since last payment or on how well tested is the technical
features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
braille displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service
itself, or partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still
do, but on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to
uncomfortable position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the
code more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille
display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be
having issues getting out of the factory, most of the other choices
out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.












Adriani Botez
 

I hope, anytime in the future, there will be a multi line braille display
which can be folded. That would be really cool.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von erik
burggraaf
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 16:11
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille display prices have dropped by hhalf over the past 10 years. Still
expensive, but not a diar case.

Braille display technology hasn't changed substantially in 30 years.
Manufacturing costs are down, especially on devices manufactured in
industrial countries like China. Government funding is under heavy attack.
Plus, the rise of mobile has lead to the true emergence of low cost small
displays. It's becoming common for a braille user to have a 40 cell display
ffor their computer and a 14 or 16 cell for their mobile device.
And we're still not paying what we did 10 years ago.

This may not be a comfort to you if you have no money and no recourse at all
to get a braille display, but things are getting better.

Best,

Erik

On October 3, 2017 9:15:43 AM "Damien Sykes-Lindley"
<damien@dcpendleton.plus.com> wrote:

Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech
user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Mallard
 

I too. My braille display only reads. I don't like to type on a Perkins-like keyboard, except on Android (I use Soft Braille Keyboard there).


I know it's unfair that braille displays should be so expensive, and not everyone can afford them. I could not afford one myself, if it didn't come through the National Health Service.

Ciao,

Ollie

Il 04/10/2017 06:19, Robert Mendoza ha scritto:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do, but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.











John J. Boyer
 

I am using a Focus 40 and a Pac Mate display, both from Freedom scientific. They were provided by agencies, So
affordability wasn't an issue.

John

On Tue, Oct 03, 2017 at 12:41:31PM +0100, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


Gene
 

It is a good idea for people who are blinded as adults to learn enough Braille, grade one, to be specific, to label things and organize things.  Children should learn Braille just as sighted children learn print.  But I am unconvinced that the argument that Braille is just like print in terms of everyone who is blind learning it.  That is not a proper analogy. 
 
For one thing, and I haven't seen any research on this but, despite what Braille proponents say, I remain unconvinced that Braille is nearly as good a medium as speech for many blind people in terms of ongoing general use.  I was always annoyingly slow at reading Braille.  Even in my early adult years, I learned Braille as a child, and in my early adult years, I would read about 300 Braille pages a month, I never got faster than about between 180 and 200 words a minute.  Considering that I can listen to speech at between 350 and 400 words a minute with good comprehension, the contrast in efficiency is obvious.  And why didn't my speed increase over time, reading as much Braille as I did for about ten years?  Why do so many blind people I hear read Braille read only about as fast as they speak, resulting in pauses and stumbling over words as they read? 
 
Some people can read Braille very quickly.  My observations and experience cause me to be skeptical that most blind people read faster than about 180 or 200 words per minute. I'm talking about people who learn to read Braille as children at the age sighted children learn to read print.  
 
And reading Braille was always more work and more tiring and fatiguing for me than listening to speech, a lot more so.  Yet I have been innundated with the you should read Braille and with the implied message that if I don't, I am somehow using an inferior medium.  If that's true, then let's get substantive information, real studies of some sort showing that I am wrong in my observations.
 
I said earlier that blind children should learn Braille and they should.  They should use it in school, at least in grammar school so they learn proper spelling, punctuation, and learn to distinguish between words that sound similar or alike and mean different things and are spelled differently.  How many times have I seen blind people write wander instead of wonder?  Just one example. 
 
And obviously, Braille is of vital importance in technical fields.  But the general assumption that Braille is better for blind people as an unqualified generalization for daily and general use, has not been demonstrated to be correct in my observations and experience.  
 
We are blind and, like it or not, being blind means that the analogical equivalent to something sighted people do, Braille to print, is not necessarily better or as good as a specifically blind oriented solution for many uses. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,
I don't see anyone saying that we should give up braille for technology.
That seemed to happen naturally in my case because I had no need to read it,
so I never did. Only recently when trying to play a game I realised just how
screwed my braille skills actually are.
In fact, I totally agree that braille would be better in some areas of work,
programming and large calculations being two such areas. On the other hand,
try asking for a disability/assistive technology grant over here and see if
you can break the record for the longest fight and largest number of
letdowns... I've just about given up hope on both the government and the
RNIB. Bleh.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who
can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up
print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on
making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too
expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound
to come down and many get those devices the government or private
programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@...> wrote:
> Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
> expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
> selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.
>
> Robert Mendoza
>
> On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
>> In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
>> insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the
>> person
>> gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
>> payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.
>>
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
>> Mallard
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
>> An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?
>>
>> I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
>> braille
>> displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
>> partly - depending on the cost of the device.
>>
>>
>> I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do,
>> but
>> on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
>> position of my workstation.
>>
>>
>> I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
>> support was introduced.
>>
>> Ciao,
>>
>> Ollie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
>>> Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
>>> development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
>>> more intuitive and better.
>>> I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
>>> on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
>>> getting out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
>>> a second mortgage to buy them!
>>>
>>> Just musing that was all.
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

 




Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@...>
 

Schools in Edmonton stopped teaching cursive writing in grade 3.
So the future generation coming up are going to be so relyant
on technology just like us.




EMAIL:karim.lakhani@shaw.ca
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 7:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone
who can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should
give up print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers
are working on making it braille friendly. The fact that braille
displays are too expensive should not discourage learning braille
as prices are bound to come down and many get those devices the
government or private programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order
to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by
the
health insurance company. And very often is being individually
judged
if the person gets the device paid or not. It depends on the
time
period since last payment or on how well tested is the
technical
features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im
Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy
gives us
braille displays, either totally paid by the National Health
Service
itself, or partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and
still
do, but on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due
to
uncomfortable position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once
braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of
the
code more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a
Braille
display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to
be
having issues getting out  of the factory, most of the other
choices
out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.