A question for users of multiple screenreaders.


John Isige
 

Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.


 

There is narrator too

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On 8 Oct 2017, at 02.55, John Isige <gwynn@...> wrote:

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Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.





John Isige
 

Quite right! I didn't mention many other screenreaders because, I suspect for many on the list, jaws is the other screenreader they're likely to install, at least, that's my recollection of people who've advocated for multiple screenreaders. Plus Narrator is built right into Windows, so you always have it whether you want it or not, so to speak. You don't have to do anything particularly special about it, it's nothing you have to go and find and install.

I'm also not sure how fully-featured Narrator is, though I understand they're really working on improving it. I did see an older article the other day where somebody claimed to be using it as their primary screenreader, they were quite taken with the idea that it was the only one that worked with Microsoft Edge. But I keep hearing conflicting opinions, some say Microsoft intends for Narrator to be a full-fledged screenreader at some point, others say that's not what they're trying to do at all. But anyway, it wasn't my intent to slight Narrator, or any other screenreader for that matter. By all means, if you've got experiences with something that does something NVDA can't, in terms of accessibility to a particular program or something, I'd love to hear it. The other day for instance, I saw reference to a screenreader called Cobra. I've never even heard of it before and have no idea if it's still being used, but if you use Cobra and it gave you access to an antivirus program NVDA doesn't, for example, I would love to hear about it.


Sky Mundell
 

Hello John. I have used all the screen readers, from JAWS to Window-eyes, to System Access, to NVDA. I can tell you that for a while I was a member of the talks mailing list by GW Micro before they merged with VFO and I made friends with thousands, and thousands of Window-Eyes users, from Scotland, to United kingdom, to Canada to united states. Below, is what a list member who was on the gw micro list, who was and still is my friend, has to say.






From: bj colt [mailto:bjcolt@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 3:52 PM
To: Sky Mundell
Subject: Re: w e list

Hi Sky,

I remember so clearly my first time on a computer with window-eyes. For me it was the best thing I had ever known. It opened up the entire world for me and thousands of other blind people. Here isn Scotland it helped hundreds into further education and for me to attain an Honors degree course in Social science and a DIP in Higher education in communications. Not only that it helped me find my girlfriend Carol in Canada. All that from a program called window-eyes. Now that is very special. carol and I met on the window-eyes list. Now there is one for the history books.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of John Isige
Sent: Saturday, October 7, 2017 1:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Quite right! I didn't mention many other screenreaders because, I suspect for many on the list, jaws is the other screenreader they're likely to install, at least, that's my recollection of people who've advocated for multiple screenreaders. Plus Narrator is built right into Windows, so you always have it whether you want it or not, so to speak.
You don't have to do anything particularly special about it, it's nothing you have to go and find and install.

I'm also not sure how fully-featured Narrator is, though I understand they're really working on improving it. I did see an older article the other day where somebody claimed to be using it as their primary screenreader, they were quite taken with the idea that it was the only one that worked with Microsoft Edge. But I keep hearing conflicting opinions, some say Microsoft intends for Narrator to be a full-fledged screenreader at some point, others say that's not what they're trying to do at all. But anyway, it wasn't my intent to slight Narrator, or any other screenreader for that matter. By all means, if you've got experiences with something that does something NVDA can't, in terms of accessibility to a particular program or something, I'd love to hear it.
The other day for instance, I saw reference to a screenreader called Cobra. I've never even heard of it before and have no idea if it's still being used, but if you use Cobra and it gave you access to an antivirus program NVDA doesn't, for example, I would love to hear about it.


erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Multiple screen readers are not particularly useful, unless possibly you are a access technology trainer or assessor or someone who works in the industry. I guess one possible use case might be, your primary screen reader crashes. Then you need sound so you can figure out why the screen reader crashed, so you pull up your secondary screen reader and find out. I think it's interesting that the people who subscribe to the multiple screen readers are better idea also subscribe to the business of vote the market for screen readers and access Technologies being too small to keep the price point down. Mastering multiple screen readers is outside the scope of time effort and expense that most people are willing to put in. even considering the diverse feature sets strengths and weaknesses of the various window screen access products, I think most people would be best served by picking one and learning it well.

Best,

Erik

On October 7, 2017 3:56:01 PM "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net> wrote:

Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple
screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated
keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can
you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to
try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where
NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't
remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up
JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to
me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm
not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran
into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either.
Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that
switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know
what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader
that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be
anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have
scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like
I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So
I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader
has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.


Andy
 

Web sites. JAWS is my primary screen reader, but I find occasionally that it may not identify text as links, buttons, etc. and that NVDA or Window Eyes will. Also, sometimes using a different browser will yield different results. I have JAWS, WE, and NVDA on this box, along with IE, Firefox, and Chrome, and sometimes I explore diffent combos to see which yields the info that I want.

Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 12:55 PM
Subject: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.


Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.



clive may <magnolia.p@...>
 

Hi


On Amazon, I tried to get into a list of subject lines for an email. No list would appear when using HAL screen reader.


However, switching to NVDA and clicking the same link brought up the list properly and I was able to proceed with what I was trying to do.



On 07/10/17 20:55, John Isige wrote:
Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.






Gene
 

One answer is that, when something doesn't work as well as desired or perhaps not at all, such as a web page or a program installer or a program in terms of accessibility, try other screen-readers.  This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with scripts. 
 
I've seen times when one screen-reader works well or better with a web page than another screen-reader.  I've
also seen times when using another browser with the same and/or another screen-reader may produce better or much better results. 
 
At times, a program may be more accessible with one screen-reader than with another.
 
I don't just advocate having more than one screen-reader.  I advocate having more of any program such as a browser or a media player or whatever, where you are dissatisfied with one and find, through experimentation, that another will do something better.
 
For example, Winamp is better for easy navigation through a file and for jumping to a specific time in a file than Windows Media Player.  But Windows Media Player has an exceptionally good fast listening feature for speeding up speech and leaving the pitch the same. 
 
There may be other players that have as good an implementation but of the small number of players I've checked, Media Player is by far superior. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of John Isige
Sent: Saturday, October 7, 2017 1:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Quite right! I didn't mention many other screenreaders because, I suspect for many on the list, jaws is the other screenreader they're likely to install, at least, that's my recollection of people who've advocated for multiple screenreaders. Plus Narrator is built right into Windows, so you always have it whether you want it or not, so to speak.
You don't have to do anything particularly special about it, it's nothing you have to go and find and install.

I'm also not sure how fully-featured Narrator is, though I understand they're really working on improving it. I did see an older article the other day where somebody claimed to be using it as their primary screenreader, they were quite taken with the idea that it was the only one that worked with Microsoft Edge. But I keep hearing conflicting opinions, some say Microsoft intends for Narrator to be a full-fledged screenreader at some point, others say that's not what they're trying to do at all. But anyway, it wasn't my intent to slight Narrator, or any other screenreader for that matter. By all means, if you've got experiences with something that does something NVDA can't, in terms of accessibility to a particular program or something, I'd love to hear it.
The other day for instance, I saw reference to a screenreader called Cobra. I've never even heard of it before and have no idea if it's still being used, but if you use Cobra and it gave you access to an antivirus program NVDA doesn't, for example, I would love to hear about it.







Gene
 

I'm sorry but to be blunt, and I'm not serving anyone well if I'm not in a case like this, your message is misleading and inaccurate.
 
I've seen many instances where one screen-reader works better with something than another.  I'm speaking from years of experience. 
 
In addition, your correlation, or I should say, alleged correlation, between views on why screen-readers are expensive if they are powerful and for profit and advocating using more than one screen-reader is irrelevant and I see no reason that there should be such a correlation.  The reasons screen-readers are expensive or views on that subject are completely unrelated to the imperial and demonstrable from experience, question of whether there are instances where one screen-reader works better than another on a certain web page or in a certain program. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Multiple screen readers are not particularly useful, unless possibly you
are a access technology trainer or assessor or someone who works in the
industry. I guess one possible use case might be, your primary screen
reader crashes. Then you need sound so you can figure out why the screen
reader crashed, so you pull up your secondary screen reader and find out. I
think it's interesting that the people who subscribe to the multiple screen
readers are better idea also subscribe to the business of vote the market
for screen readers and access Technologies being too small to keep the
price point down. Mastering multiple screen readers is outside the scope of
time effort and expense that most people are willing to put in. even
considering the diverse feature sets strengths and weaknesses of the
various window screen access products, I think most people would be best
served by picking one and learning it well.

Best,

Erik


On October 7, 2017 3:56:01 PM "John Isige" <gwynn@...> wrote:

Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple
screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated
keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can
you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to
try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where
NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't
remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up
JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to
me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm
not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran
into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either.
Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that
switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know
what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader
that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be
anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have
scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like
I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So
I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader
has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.









Ian Westerland
 

Eric, multiple Screen Readers are extremely handy in cases where one Screen Reader is inadequate. An example has been banking where I found that one screen reader was way more efficient than several others.
One Screen Reader becomes a person's chosen or main screen reader through learning by use, and by experiencing tasks performed by each program.

Cost in terms of money is a consideration then,
the time taken to become familiar with the Screen reading program.
Is it worth the effort? In my experience as a person who was born totally blind, the answer is most definitely YES! particularly when that effort influences my level of independence.

Best regards


Ian Westerland

On 10/8/2017 8:18 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:
Multiple screen readers are not particularly useful, unless possibly you are a access technology trainer or assessor or someone who works in the industry. I guess one possible use case might be, your primary screen reader crashes. Then you need sound so you can figure out why the screen reader crashed, so you pull up your secondary screen reader and find out. I think it's interesting that the people who subscribe to the multiple screen readers are better idea also subscribe to the business of vote the market for screen readers and access Technologies being too small to keep the price point down. Mastering multiple screen readers is outside the scope of time effort and expense that most people are willing to put in. even considering the diverse feature sets strengths and weaknesses of the various window screen access products, I think most people would be best served by picking one and learning it well.
Best,
Erik
On October 7, 2017 3:56:01 PM "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net> wrote:
Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple
screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated
keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can
you give specific cases where this is useful?
I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to
try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where
NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't
remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up
JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to
me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.
Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm
not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran
into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either.
Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that
switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know
what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader
that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be
anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have
scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like
I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So
I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader
has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.


Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

I installed cobra, but I just couldn't get it to do anything useful.  It acted like a microsoft product, in that it took over everything, (and I mean everything), I couldn't get out of it to do anything else, even when I didn't want to use cobra, I had one heck of a time getting it to go away so I could start NVDA.  Plus, it's keystrokes are all completely different, and I couldn't manage to get the hang of it.  It looks decent enough, other than the whole taking over your machine and not allowing you to use anything else thing anyway, but for me the experience wasn't a very good one, so I finally managed to get it uninstalled, and I don't plan to try it again.  Cobra is made by a german company.  I don't rmemeber what it cost (if I ever knew), but the demo did not strike me as being the kind of thing I needed, so I didn't bother to follow up with anything regarding cobra.  Your mileage may vary of course, andyou're of course encouraged to try it out for yourself, don't just rely on my experiences.

On 10/7/2017 4:27 PM, John Isige wrote:
Quite right! I didn't mention many other screenreaders because, I suspect for many on the list, jaws is the other screenreader they're likely to install, at least, that's my recollection of people who've advocated for multiple screenreaders. Plus Narrator is built right into Windows, so you always have it whether you want it or not, so to speak. You don't have to do anything particularly special about it, it's nothing you have to go and find and install.

I'm also not sure how fully-featured Narrator is, though I understand they're really working on improving it. I did see an older article the other day where somebody claimed to be using it as their primary screenreader, they were quite taken with the idea that it was the only one that worked with Microsoft Edge. But I keep hearing conflicting opinions, some say Microsoft intends for Narrator to be a full-fledged screenreader at some point, others say that's not what they're trying to do at all. But anyway, it wasn't my intent to slight Narrator, or any other screenreader for that matter. By all means, if you've got experiences with something that does something NVDA can't, in terms of accessibility to a particular program or something, I'd love to hear it. The other day for instance, I saw reference to a screenreader called Cobra. I've never even heard of it before and have no idea if it's still being used, but if you use Cobra and it gave you access to an antivirus program NVDA doesn't, for example, I would love to hear about it.



Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

Nah, there's times when a second screen reader is useful.  A demo of another screen reader is fine for most purposes.  I use NVDA as my main screen reader, but sometimes it is necessary to get a second opinion on something, and rather than bothering someone in the house who has sight, I generally go and fire up another screen reader (I have 2 or 3 others installed here), and check out the offending bit of screen real estate to see if it's just me or if it's something more sinister.  Generally, the other screen readers can't make heads or tails of it either, but sometimes, another screen reader does indeed read something NVDA doesn't, and once in a while, that's all I need to solve my particular problem.  Of course, nothing substitutes for a good old fashioned pair of working eyes, so usually, I call over a wife, daughter, or son to help out, but I only do that as a last resort, or if I'm in a hurry, and they happen to be present, then I'll skip the alternate readers bit, and just ask for help.

So, in summary, yes, having multiple screen readers is useful sometimes, though not always.

On 10/7/2017 5:18 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
Multiple screen readers are not particularly useful, unless possibly you are a access technology trainer or assessor or someone who works in the industry. I guess one possible use case might be, your primary screen reader crashes. Then you need sound so you can figure out why the screen reader crashed, so you pull up your secondary screen reader and find out. I think it's interesting that the people who subscribe to the multiple screen readers are better idea also subscribe to the business of vote the market for screen readers and access Technologies being too small to keep the price point down. Mastering multiple screen readers is outside the scope of time effort and expense that most people are willing to put in. even considering the diverse feature sets strengths and weaknesses of the various window screen access products, I think most people would be best served by picking one and learning it well.

Best,

Erik


On October 7, 2017 3:56:01 PM "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net> wrote:

Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple
screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated
keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can
you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to
try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where
NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't
remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up
JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to
me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm
not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran
into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either.
Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that
switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know
what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader
that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be
anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have
scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like
I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So
I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader
has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.









 

Hi,
I for one use NVDA, Narrator and JAWS in one way or another. I need Narrator because it gives me inspirations behind one of my add-ons as Narrator provides a gold standard in UIA support in Windows 10 (for now). I mostly use JAWS when I need to compare certain things, especially these days as I use it (alongside others at different times) to assess its support for Edge and universal apps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: Saturday, October 7, 2017 8:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Nah, there's times when a second screen reader is useful. A demo of another screen reader is fine for most purposes. I use NVDA as my main screen reader, but sometimes it is necessary to get a second opinion on something, and rather than bothering someone in the house who has sight, I generally go and fire up another screen reader (I have 2 or 3 others installed here), and check out the offending bit of screen real estate to see if it's just me or if it's something more sinister. Generally, the other screen readers can't make heads or tails of it either, but sometimes, another screen reader does indeed read something NVDA doesn't, and once in a while, that's all I need to solve my particular problem. Of course, nothing substitutes for a good old fashioned pair of working eyes, so usually, I call over a wife, daughter, or son to help out, but I only do that as a last resort, or if I'm in a hurry, and they happen to be present, then I'll skip the alternate readers bit, and just ask for help.

So, in summary, yes, having multiple screen readers is useful sometimes, though not always.


On 10/7/2017 5:18 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
Multiple screen readers are not particularly useful, unless possibly
you are a access technology trainer or assessor or someone who works
in the industry. I guess one possible use case might be, your primary
screen reader crashes. Then you need sound so you can figure out why
the screen reader crashed, so you pull up your secondary screen reader
and find out. I think it's interesting that the people who subscribe
to the multiple screen readers are better idea also subscribe to the
business of vote the market for screen readers and access Technologies
being too small to keep the price point down. Mastering multiple
screen readers is outside the scope of time effort and expense that
most people are willing to put in. even considering the diverse
feature sets strengths and weaknesses of the various window screen
access products, I think most people would be best served by picking
one and learning it well.

Best,

Erik


On October 7, 2017 3:56:01 PM "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net> wrote:

Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple
screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated
keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can
you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to
try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where
NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't
remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up
JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to
me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm
not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran
into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either.
Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that
switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know
what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader
that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be
anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have
scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like
I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So
I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader
has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.










David Moore
 

Hi all,

I use NVDA 80 percent of the time, JAWS 15 percent of the time on web sites,

And Narrator five percent of the time in the universal apps, like the News app. NVDA works as well in the news app, and many apps.

I use Narrator, like Joseph, to get an idea of how well the Windows updates are accessible compared to the previous updates.

I feel that I can access so much more material because I use three screen readers. The more tools you have, the better!

It is the same with browsers. I use four browsers to do different tasks.

IE 11 for forms and the mobile Facebook site, Firefox for long documents, Chrome a lot to stream video and

Large news web sites, and Edge more and more to read and stream media sites as well. Edge and Chrome will become my most used browsers.

Have a great one, all!

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2017 12:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

Hi,

I for one use NVDA, Narrator and JAWS in one way or another. I need Narrator because it gives me inspirations behind one of my add-ons as Narrator provides a gold standard in UIA support in Windows 10 (for now). I mostly use JAWS when I need to compare certain things, especially these days as I use it (alongside others at different times) to assess its support for Edge and universal apps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel

Sent: Saturday, October 7, 2017 8:18 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

Nah, there's times when a second screen reader is useful.  A demo of another screen reader is fine for most purposes.  I use NVDA as my main screen reader, but sometimes it is necessary to get a second opinion on something, and rather than bothering someone in the house who has sight, I generally go and fire up another screen reader (I have 2 or 3 others installed here), and check out the offending bit of screen real estate to see if it's just me or if it's something more sinister.  Generally, the other screen readers can't make heads or tails of it either, but sometimes, another screen reader does indeed read something NVDA doesn't, and once in a while, that's all I need to solve my particular problem.  Of course, nothing substitutes for a good old fashioned pair of working eyes, so usually, I call over a wife, daughter, or son to help out, but I only do that as a last resort, or if I'm in a hurry, and they happen to be present, then I'll skip the alternate readers bit, and just ask for help.

 

So, in summary, yes, having multiple screen readers is useful sometimes, though not always.

 

 

On 10/7/2017 5:18 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:

> Multiple screen readers are not particularly useful, unless possibly

> you are a access technology trainer or assessor or someone who works

> in the industry. I guess one possible use case might be, your primary

> screen reader crashes. Then you need sound so you can figure out why

> the screen reader crashed, so you pull up your secondary screen reader

> and find out. I think it's interesting that the people who subscribe

> to the multiple screen readers are better idea also subscribe to the

> business of vote the market for screen readers and access Technologies

> being too small to keep the price point down. Mastering multiple

> screen readers is outside the scope of time effort and expense that

> most people are willing to put in. even considering the diverse

> feature sets strengths and weaknesses of the various window screen

> access products, I think most people would be best served by picking

> one and learning it well.

> Best,

> Erik

> On October 7, 2017 3:56:01 PM "John Isige" <gwynn@...> wrote:

> Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple

> screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated

> keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can

> you give specific cases where this is useful?

> I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to

> try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where

> NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't

> remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up

> JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to

> me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.

> Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm

> not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran

> into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either.

> Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that

> switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know

> what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader

> that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be

> anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have

> scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like

> I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So

> I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader

> has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Arno Schuh
 

Hi,

because I am useing Cobra at work I have installed a copy here at home, too.
As an example when I switch to Cobra is in WavePurity. WavePurity is a software for recording and restauring i. e. old records.
When I start the Recording assistent in WavePurity it opens a window within WavePurity. NVDA show the items, buttons etc. in this windows - until I switch to another running programe like Mail, Internet, Text etc. (Alt+Tab).
When I switch back to WavePurity, NVDA only shows the main window. I have no idea how to reach the Recording Assistent window again.
In Cobra I hear an acoustic signal that there is another available window. With Cobra-key+a I can switch to this window inside of WavePurity.
May be it only is my lack of knowledge of NVDA that I can do the same wihtin NVDA, but because I know how it works with Cobra I use Cobra when I work with WavePurity.

Arno


anthony borg
 

Hi joseph

Can you please explain to me how to do the settings of the narrator without using the capslock?

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: 08 October 2017 07:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

Hi all,

I use NVDA 80 percent of the time, JAWS 15 percent of the time on web sites,

And Narrator five percent of the time in the universal apps, like the News app. NVDA works as well in the news app, and many apps.

I use Narrator, like Joseph, to get an idea of how well the Windows updates are accessible compared to the previous updates.

I feel that I can access so much more material because I use three screen readers. The more tools you have, the better!

It is the same with browsers. I use four browsers to do different tasks.

IE 11 for forms and the mobile Facebook site, Firefox for long documents, Chrome a lot to stream video and

Large news web sites, and Edge more and more to read and stream media sites as well. Edge and Chrome will become my most used browsers.

Have a great one, all!

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2017 12:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

Hi,

I for one use NVDA, Narrator and JAWS in one way or another. I need Narrator because it gives me inspirations behind one of my add-ons as Narrator provides a gold standard in UIA support in Windows 10 (for now). I mostly use JAWS when I need to compare certain things, especially these days as I use it (alongside others at different times) to assess its support for Edge and universal apps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel

Sent: Saturday, October 7, 2017 8:18 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

Nah, there's times when a second screen reader is useful.  A demo of another screen reader is fine for most purposes.  I use NVDA as my main screen reader, but sometimes it is necessary to get a second opinion on something, and rather than bothering someone in the house who has sight, I generally go and fire up another screen reader (I have 2 or 3 others installed here), and check out the offending bit of screen real estate to see if it's just me or if it's something more sinister.  Generally, the other screen readers can't make heads or tails of it either, but sometimes, another screen reader does indeed read something NVDA doesn't, and once in a while, that's all I need to solve my particular problem.  Of course, nothing substitutes for a good old fashioned pair of working eyes, so usually, I call over a wife, daughter, or son to help out, but I only do that as a last resort, or if I'm in a hurry, and they happen to be present, then I'll skip the alternate readers bit, and just ask for help.

 

So, in summary, yes, having multiple screen readers is useful sometimes, though not always.

 

 

On 10/7/2017 5:18 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:

> Multiple screen readers are not particularly useful, unless possibly

> you are a access technology trainer or assessor or someone who works

> in the industry. I guess one possible use case might be, your primary

> screen reader crashes. Then you need sound so you can figure out why

> the screen reader crashed, so you pull up your secondary screen reader

> and find out. I think it's interesting that the people who subscribe

> to the multiple screen readers are better idea also subscribe to the

> business of vote the market for screen readers and access Technologies

> being too small to keep the price point down. Mastering multiple

> screen readers is outside the scope of time effort and expense that

> most people are willing to put in. even considering the diverse

> feature sets strengths and weaknesses of the various window screen

> access products, I think most people would be best served by picking

> one and learning it well.

> Best,

> Erik

> On October 7, 2017 3:56:01 PM "John Isige" <gwynn@...> wrote:

> Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple

> screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated

> keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can

> you give specific cases where this is useful?

> I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to

> try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where

> NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't

> remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up

> JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to

> me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.

> Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm

> not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran

> into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either.

> Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that

> switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know

> what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader

> that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be

> anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have

> scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like

> I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So

> I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader

> has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Hi,

Sorry, but Narrator uses Caps lock key exclusively as its command modifier.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of anthony borg
Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2017 4:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

Hi joseph

Can you please explain to me how to do the settings of the narrator without using the capslock?

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: 08 October 2017 07:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

Hi all,

I use NVDA 80 percent of the time, JAWS 15 percent of the time on web sites,

And Narrator five percent of the time in the universal apps, like the News app. NVDA works as well in the news app, and many apps.

I use Narrator, like Joseph, to get an idea of how well the Windows updates are accessible compared to the previous updates.

I feel that I can access so much more material because I use three screen readers. The more tools you have, the better!

It is the same with browsers. I use four browsers to do different tasks.

IE 11 for forms and the mobile Facebook site, Firefox for long documents, Chrome a lot to stream video and

Large news web sites, and Edge more and more to read and stream media sites as well. Edge and Chrome will become my most used browsers.

Have a great one, all!

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2017 12:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

Hi,

I for one use NVDA, Narrator and JAWS in one way or another. I need Narrator because it gives me inspirations behind one of my add-ons as Narrator provides a gold standard in UIA support in Windows 10 (for now). I mostly use JAWS when I need to compare certain things, especially these days as I use it (alongside others at different times) to assess its support for Edge and universal apps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel

Sent: Saturday, October 7, 2017 8:18 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

Nah, there's times when a second screen reader is useful.  A demo of another screen reader is fine for most purposes.  I use NVDA as my main screen reader, but sometimes it is necessary to get a second opinion on something, and rather than bothering someone in the house who has sight, I generally go and fire up another screen reader (I have 2 or 3 others installed here), and check out the offending bit of screen real estate to see if it's just me or if it's something more sinister.  Generally, the other screen readers can't make heads or tails of it either, but sometimes, another screen reader does indeed read something NVDA doesn't, and once in a while, that's all I need to solve my particular problem.  Of course, nothing substitutes for a good old fashioned pair of working eyes, so usually, I call over a wife, daughter, or son to help out, but I only do that as a last resort, or if I'm in a hurry, and they happen to be present, then I'll skip the alternate readers bit, and just ask for help.

 

So, in summary, yes, having multiple screen readers is useful sometimes, though not always.

 

 

On 10/7/2017 5:18 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:

> Multiple screen readers are not particularly useful, unless possibly

> you are a access technology trainer or assessor or someone who works

> in the industry. I guess one possible use case might be, your primary

> screen reader crashes. Then you need sound so you can figure out why

> the screen reader crashed, so you pull up your secondary screen reader

> and find out. I think it's interesting that the people who subscribe

> to the multiple screen readers are better idea also subscribe to the

> business of vote the market for screen readers and access Technologies

> being too small to keep the price point down. Mastering multiple

> screen readers is outside the scope of time effort and expense that

> most people are willing to put in. even considering the diverse

> feature sets strengths and weaknesses of the various window screen

> access products, I think most people would be best served by picking

> one and learning it well.

> Best,

> Erik

> On October 7, 2017 3:56:01 PM "John Isige" <gwynn@...> wrote:

> Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple

> screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated

> keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can

> you give specific cases where this is useful?

> I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to

> try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where

> NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't

> remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up

> JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to

> me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.

> Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm

> not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran

> into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either.

> Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that

> switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know

> what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader

> that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be

> anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have

> scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like

> I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So

> I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader

> has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well on the Jaws front, sometimes Flash works better in that screenreader, but as Flash is dying then not a great thing.
Supernova, if you have some sight has some very good magnification choices, It does sort of use scripts that you can sort of write in a multiple choice set of dialogues or freehand with a special editor. It also has more general profiles a bit like nvda has as well. Set and map files they are called, but its not very easy to understand them, mind you it might well be me!


Unfortunately if you have an old version as I do and try it no new files get downloaded when out of life.
I tend to only use my Dolphin book creator now as the voices are unliocked for use by other applications.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 8:55 PM
Subject: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.


Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.



Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes its not been of much use on windows 7 to try to find the culprit stopping the latest snaps from installing and running though, it has to be said. its keeping its powder too dry for my liking!
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. arvind singh brar" <arvindsinghbrar@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.


There is narrator too

This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.

On 8 Oct 2017, at 02.55, John Isige <gwynn@tds.net> wrote:

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (gwynn@tds.net) Add cleanup rule | More info
Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question. Can you give specific cases where this is useful?


I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago. I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages out of running jaws.


Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious to know what things you might gain access to with jaws or another screen reader that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious example would be anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things like Dolphin have scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people advocate this, like I've said, you know have a demo copy installed and stuff like that. So I'd just like to hear of any specific cases where another screenreader has helped. I think it would be really useful to know that kind of thing.




Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I have removed Jaws from this machine as it was not very stable, and only had the demo in any case. I've not regretted it.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.


Quite right! I didn't mention many other screenreaders because, I suspect for many on the list, jaws is the other screenreader they're likely to install, at least, that's my recollection of people who've advocated for multiple screenreaders. Plus Narrator is built right into Windows, so you always have it whether you want it or not, so to speak. You don't have to do anything particularly special about it, it's nothing you have to go and find and install.

I'm also not sure how fully-featured Narrator is, though I understand they're really working on improving it. I did see an older article the other day where somebody claimed to be using it as their primary screenreader, they were quite taken with the idea that it was the only one that worked with Microsoft Edge. But I keep hearing conflicting opinions, some say Microsoft intends for Narrator to be a full-fledged screenreader at some point, others say that's not what they're trying to do at all. But anyway, it wasn't my intent to slight Narrator, or any other screenreader for that matter. By all means, if you've got experiences with something that does something NVDA can't, in terms of accessibility to a particular program or something, I'd love to hear it. The other day for instance, I saw reference to a screenreader called Cobra. I've never even heard of it before and have no idea if it's still being used, but if you use Cobra and it gave you access to an antivirus program NVDA doesn't, for example, I would love to hear about it.