need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


I can see what i have done. There were 2 unnamed files on the desktop with pretty much the same file name and named the wrong file.


The other file was for ripping cdes with windows media player 12 which is the one that got sent with the wrong file name. any how it is renamed and that file was most probably going up there along with a written tutorial.


the file now named correctly is https://www.dropbox.com/s/hjym0u6nzgyqpgl/navigating%20ribbons%20in%20word%20pad.MP3?dl=0

hopefully all the bases got covered.


Gene nz

 


On 11/21/2017 4:02 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I noticed that too.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 5:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

 

Gene

 

The link you gave is incorrect, or the file you sent to Drop Box and linked to is not correct.  It is about ripping with Media Player.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 3:45 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

 

Hi guys

 

If you are interested I have just done a quick audio tutorial on navigating ribbons in word pad. Hopefully it gives you a rough idea on navigating the ribbons in word pad. It is the same idea for other parts of windows. there will also be another written tutorial from the other Gene going up to the website later on tonight.

I will let the list know when they are posted any how.

 

The page they will go to now which may make more sence is nvda tutorials learning the basics instead of nvda tutorials for other programs page.

 

The audio tutorial i will post now to the list and hopefully you can follow ok.

 

 

The link to the drop box account is https://www.dropbox.com/s/enl013uq5rwvxbo/navigating%20ribbons%20in%20wordpad.MP3?dl=0

Hopefully i covered what you need to know.

You will just need to know some of the basics of interacting with buttons etc.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 11/21/2017 3:57 AM, Gene wrote:

Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I noticed that too.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 5:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

 

Gene

 

The link you gave is incorrect, or the file you sent to Drop Box and linked to is not correct.  It is about ripping with Media Player.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 3:45 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

 

Hi guys

 

If you are interested I have just done a quick audio tutorial on navigating ribbons in word pad. Hopefully it gives you a rough idea on navigating the ribbons in word pad. It is the same idea for other parts of windows. there will also be another written tutorial from the other Gene going up to the website later on tonight.

I will let the list know when they are posted any how.

 

The page they will go to now which may make more sence is nvda tutorials learning the basics instead of nvda tutorials for other programs page.

 

The audio tutorial i will post now to the list and hopefully you can follow ok.

 

 

The link to the drop box account is https://www.dropbox.com/s/enl013uq5rwvxbo/navigating%20ribbons%20in%20wordpad.MP3?dl=0

Hopefully i covered what you need to know.

You will just need to know some of the basics of interacting with buttons etc.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 11/21/2017 3:57 AM, Gene wrote:

Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


 

Gene nz,

         Sure, feel free to add the stuff I wrote.  I would appreciate attribution, but that's the total cost.  I write these things to help people out, so getting the information out there is what matters most.
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Gene
 

Gene
 
The link you gave is incorrect, or the file you sent to Drop Box and linked to is not correct.  It is about ripping with Media Player.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

Hi guys


If you are interested I have just done a quick audio tutorial on navigating ribbons in word pad. Hopefully it gives you a rough idea on navigating the ribbons in word pad. It is the same idea for other parts of windows. there will also be another written tutorial from the other Gene going up to the website later on tonight.

I will let the list know when they are posted any how.


The page they will go to now which may make more sence is nvda tutorials learning the basics instead of nvda tutorials for other programs page.


The audio tutorial i will post now to the list and hopefully you can follow ok.



The link to the drop box account is https://www.dropbox.com/s/enl013uq5rwvxbo/navigating%20ribbons%20in%20wordpad.MP3?dl=0

Hopefully i covered what you need to know.

You will just need to know some of the basics of interacting with buttons etc.


Gene nz



On 11/21/2017 3:57 AM, Gene wrote:
Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.
 
Gene
 
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene NZ,

 

This will be a good review for me. I do have a book on wordpad that I got when I was taking the word processing course from Hadley School for the Blind.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 1:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

 

Hi guys

 

If you are interested I have just done a quick audio tutorial on navigating ribbons in word pad. Hopefully it gives you a rough idea on navigating the ribbons in word pad. It is the same idea for other parts of windows. there will also be another written tutorial from the other Gene going up to the website later on tonight.

I will let the list know when they are posted any how.

 

The page they will go to now which may make more sence is nvda tutorials learning the basics instead of nvda tutorials for other programs page.

 

The audio tutorial i will post now to the list and hopefully you can follow ok.

 

 

The link to the drop box account is https://www.dropbox.com/s/enl013uq5rwvxbo/navigating%20ribbons%20in%20wordpad.MP3?dl=0

Hopefully i covered what you need to know.

You will just need to know some of the basics of interacting with buttons etc.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 11/21/2017 3:57 AM, Gene wrote:

Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi Brian


I just read your email and the tutorial you wrote using file explorer. could i add your tutorial to the other one which the other Gene had done. One was for word pad and yours for file eexplorer but will put both on the same page with a jump link. Also will be written who the tutorial is by as well unless you want it left off  if you let me.


It will give the person a idea  more that one might cover the other might not.



Gene nz



On 11/21/2017 12:14 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Not to take away anything from Gene's tutorial, which is excellent, but just to offer another.  I, like Gene, have been utterly discouraged by the constant complaining about the ribbon interface, a great deal of which is from individuals who have not even spent one full day trying to navigate the ribbons using any tutorial.  They really are menus, but laid out somewhat differently.   They are also not going away, ever, and have largely supplanted the menu structure in many programs, particularly on Windows.

In any case, if you'd like to look at another tutorial, download:   --
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


 

Not to take away anything from Gene's tutorial, which is excellent, but just to offer another.  I, like Gene, have been utterly discouraged by the constant complaining about the ribbon interface, a great deal of which is from individuals who have not even spent one full day trying to navigate the ribbons using any tutorial.  They really are menus, but laid out somewhat differently.   They are also not going away, ever, and have largely supplanted the menu structure in many programs, particularly on Windows.

In any case, if you'd like to look at another tutorial, download:   --
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


abdul muhamin
 

Thanks for the tutorial

 

regards, Abdulmuhamin Yousaf!
head of the content department at
www.blindHelp.net

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

 

Hi guys

 

If you are interested I have just done a quick audio tutorial on navigating ribbons in word pad. Hopefully it gives you a rough idea on navigating the ribbons in word pad. It is the same idea for other parts of windows. there will also be another written tutorial from the other Gene going up to the website later on tonight.

I will let the list know when they are posted any how.

 

The page they will go to now which may make more sence is nvda tutorials learning the basics instead of nvda tutorials for other programs page.

 

The audio tutorial i will post now to the list and hopefully you can follow ok.

 

 

The link to the drop box account is https://www.dropbox.com/s/enl013uq5rwvxbo/navigating%20ribbons%20in%20wordpad.MP3?dl=0

Hopefully i covered what you need to know.

You will just need to know some of the basics of interacting with buttons etc.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 11/21/2017 3:57 AM, Gene wrote:

Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 


Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi guys


If you are interested I have just done a quick audio tutorial on navigating ribbons in word pad. Hopefully it gives you a rough idea on navigating the ribbons in word pad. It is the same idea for other parts of windows. there will also be another written tutorial from the other Gene going up to the website later on tonight.

I will let the list know when they are posted any how.


The page they will go to now which may make more sence is nvda tutorials learning the basics instead of nvda tutorials for other programs page.


The audio tutorial i will post now to the list and hopefully you can follow ok.



The link to the drop box account is https://www.dropbox.com/s/enl013uq5rwvxbo/navigating%20ribbons%20in%20wordpad.MP3?dl=0

Hopefully i covered what you need to know.

You will just need to know some of the basics of interacting with buttons etc.


Gene nz



On 11/21/2017 3:57 AM, Gene wrote:
Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.
 
Gene
 
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Gene
 

Do you know how to select and copy text on web pages efficiently? 
 
I'm not being stubborn or going into this because I mind sending the message privately, but this is by no means the only time you will probably be in this situation and it is far better to know how to deal with it than if I solved the problem for you by sending the message privately.  You will very likely have the same situation again in future, perhaps repeatedly.  .  Also, if you want the message in the inbox for some specific reason and if moving it isn't practical or possible, you could forward it to whatever address you want. 
 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: zahra
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

i use interface of gmail on firefox, i dont have any program for emails.

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Please simply copy it to the clipboard and paste it into Notepad and save it
> wherever you want.  Or learn how to move mail in your e-mail program.  If
> you don't know, ask on list.  It isn't a good idea to let mail accumulate in
> the inbox and it would be far better to save the message outside of the
> program.
>
> Gene
>
>
> From: zahra
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:28 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA
>
>
> i recieve your message, but i want to have your tutorial in my inbox.
>
> On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>> Since you see the e-mails on this list, and since I've sent the tutorial
>> twice in the last ten minutes, you should see it, especially since the
>> subject line of one message states that it is the tutorial.  If you don't
>> receive it, let me know.
>>
>> I didn't say that there is a ribbon interface in the new version of
>> Firefox.
>>  I said that in the options dialog, a ribbon-like interface has been
>> used,
>> but it isn't a ribbon interface.  You work with the options dialog as you
>> did previously but the use of fewer items in the list, such as general,
>> security, etc. and the use of category names as you tab along with the
>> much
>> larger amount of items you tab through, makes this far more like working
>> with a ribbon.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: zahra
>> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:08 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA
>>
>>
>> do you say that new firefox quantom has ribbon interface instead of
>> previous classic menu?
>> can you please send me your tutorial off list?
>> please sen me via my gmail address directly.
>> God bless you!
>>
>> On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>> Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>>
>>> I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to
>>> work
>>> with ribbons.
>>>
>>> I've added a little to it here.
>>>
>>> I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10
>>> but
>>> this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons,
>>> or
>>> any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.
>>>
>>> First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that
>>> you
>>> need to know about-- the split button.
>>> One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in
>>> Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more
>>> options than just the default action.  Let's take an example.
>>> Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.
>>> If
>>> you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the
>>> default
>>> action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow
>>> while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the
>>> shut
>>> down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.
>>> the
>>> items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up
>>> or
>>> down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear
>>> announced
>>> as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions
>>> without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in
>>> menus.
>>>
>>> So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you
>>> press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other
>>> options
>>> may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.
>>> A
>>> split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right
>>> arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.
>>> Try
>>> both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a
>>> tool
>>> bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing
>>> will
>>> open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If
>>> you
>>> are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.
>>> So
>>> you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.
>>> In
>>> a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right
>>> arrowing
>>> will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when
>>> on
>>> the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool
>>> bars
>>> run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be
>>> sure
>>> which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not
>>> sure
>>> or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display
>>> more
>>> options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split
>>> button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite
>>> direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to
>>> open
>>> more options, left arrow.
>>> Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.
>>> In
>>> that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the
>>> additional
>>> options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if
>>> you
>>> want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down
>>> arrow
>>> to open it.
>>>
>>> Now, to ribbons themselves.
>>>
>>> Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted
>>> if
>>> you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands
>>> effectively
>>> and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS
>>> virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about
>>> ribbons
>>> being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and
>>> using
>>> virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.
>>> There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
>>>
>>> Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
>>> Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides
>>> a
>>> good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.
>>>
>>> The essence of working with ribbons is this:
>>> Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
>>> You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
>>> ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
>>> To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to
>>> move
>>> through the ribbons.  Move in one
>>> direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through
>>> all
>>> the menus.
>>>
>>> For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move
>>> with
>>> the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep
>>> right
>>> arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move
>>> through
>>> all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left
>>> arrow
>>> whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.
>>>
>>> Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in
>>> what
>>> is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.
>>>
>>> In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.
>>> Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
>>> So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
>>>
>>> Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or
>>> enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu
>>> and
>>> if
>>> you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
>>>
>>> Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to
>>> work
>>> with that item.
>>> But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the
>>> command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is
>>> either
>>> insert.
>>>
>>> Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert
>>> tab.
>>>  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will
>>> hear
>>> is
>>> the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the
>>> command as often as you want.
>>>
>>> Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.
>>> Return
>>> to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can
>>> either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.
>>> Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
>>> Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
>>> You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down
>>> grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to
>>> worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at
>>> the
>>> application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.
>>> Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will
>>> hear
>>> all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.
>>> When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu
>>> and
>>> move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example,
>>> if
>>> you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when
>>> you
>>> are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt
>>> f,
>>> then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon
>>> programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important
>>> and
>>> common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By
>>> options,
>>> I
>>> mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
>>>
>>> Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some
>>> more.
>>> To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to
>>> the
>>> ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would
>>> move from menu to menu.
>>> You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes
>>> you
>>> to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you
>>> are
>>> on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the
>>> items
>>> in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and
>>> shift
>>> tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
>>> Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you
>>> tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category
>>> named
>>> respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab,
>>> you
>>> will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.
>>> When
>>> you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything
>>> spoken.
>>> You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking
>>> about working with an unfamiliar ribbon.
>>> there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.
>>> So
>>> memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly.
>>> As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize
>>> items.
>>>  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you
>>> see
>>> if there is a category you want to look through.
>>> Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for
>>> view.
>>> Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward
>>> from
>>> category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get
>>> to
>>> a
>>> category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you
>>> can
>>> shift tab to move back.
>>>
>>> Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized
>>> by
>>> moving through it.
>>> Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is
>>> in
>>> a
>>> category.
>>>
>>> Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are
>>> mostly
>>> retained in programs
>>> that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't
>>> already
>>> know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list
>>> of
>>> keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in
>>> the
>>> help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used
>>> an
>>> older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands
>>> you
>>> know will work.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
>> holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
>> in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
>> indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
>> best website for studying islamic book in different languages
>> www.al-islam.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
> holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
> in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
> indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
> best website for studying islamic book in different languages
> www.al-islam.org
>
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org



 

i use interface of gmail on firefox, i dont have any program for emails.

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
Please simply copy it to the clipboard and paste it into Notepad and save it
wherever you want. Or learn how to move mail in your e-mail program. If
you don't know, ask on list. It isn't a good idea to let mail accumulate in
the inbox and it would be far better to save the message outside of the
program.

Gene


From: zahra
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


i recieve your message, but i want to have your tutorial in my inbox.

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
Since you see the e-mails on this list, and since I've sent the tutorial
twice in the last ten minutes, you should see it, especially since the
subject line of one message states that it is the tutorial. If you don't
receive it, let me know.

I didn't say that there is a ribbon interface in the new version of
Firefox.
I said that in the options dialog, a ribbon-like interface has been
used,
but it isn't a ribbon interface. You work with the options dialog as you
did previously but the use of fewer items in the list, such as general,
security, etc. and the use of category names as you tab along with the
much
larger amount of items you tab through, makes this far more like working
with a ribbon.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: zahra
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


do you say that new firefox quantom has ribbon interface instead of
previous classic menu?
can you please send me your tutorial off list?
please sen me via my gmail address directly.
God bless you!

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.

Gene

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to
work
with ribbons.

I've added a little to it here.

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10
but
this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons,
or
any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that
you
need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in
Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more
options than just the default action. Let's take an example.
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.
If
you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is the
default
action. Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow
while on the button or down arrow. As an example, if you are on the
shut
down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.
the
items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others. You up
or
down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear
announced
as you move through the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions
without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in
menus.

So, let's review. You find a split button that says shut down. If you
press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other
options
may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.
A
split button won't work with both methods. One method, either right
arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.
Try
both methods if you don't know which one might work. If you are on a
tool
bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing
will
open additional options. If you think about this, it makes sense. If
you
are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.
So
you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.
In
a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right
arrowing
will move you to the next item in the tool bar. So you down arrow when
on
the split button to cause it to display more options. But some tool
bars
run up and down the screen, as menus do. And at times, you may not be
sure
which way a structure extends on screen. So, as I said, if you are not
sure
or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display
more
options. Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split
button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite
direction to move out of them. For example, if you right arrowed to
open
more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.
In
that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through the
additional
options. I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if
you
want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down
arrow
to open it.

Now, to ribbons themselves.

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted
if
you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands
effectively
and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS
virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about
ribbons
being difficult to use. the training material is just plain wrong and
using
virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.
There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine. Wordpad provides
a
good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to
move
through the ribbons. Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through
all
the menus.

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move
with
the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep
right
arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You can move
through
all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left
arrow
whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.

Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will move through all items in
what
is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.
Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use either the space bar or
enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu
and
if
you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to
work
with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use the
command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it is
either
insert.

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert
tab.
You will hear some extraneous information. The last thing you will
hear
is
the short cut sequence. You can repeat the information by repeating the
command as often as you want.

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.
Return
to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons. You can
either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.
Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down
grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't have to
worry about. The important things are that you are on a button and at
the
application menu. Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.
Activating the button opens the menu. Start down arrowing. you will
hear
all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.
When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. When you open the menu
and
move through it, you will hear all the letters announced. for example,
if
you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a. that means that, when
you
are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt
f,
then type a. Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as. Ribbon
programs have one menu and you should look through it. Many important
and
common commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By
options,
I
mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some
more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to
the
ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you would
move from menu to menu.
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes
you
to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc. Once you
are
on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the
items
in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the items. So tab and
shift
tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you
tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category
named
respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool bar. As you tab,
you
will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.
When
you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything
spoken.
You will miss the first command in the category if you do. I'm talking
about working with an unfamiliar ribbon.
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.
So
memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly.
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize
items.
You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you
see
if there is a category you want to look through.
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for
view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward
from
category to category and control left arrow to move back. When you get
to
a
category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing. Of course, you
can
shift tab to move back.

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized
by
moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is
in
a
category.

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are
mostly
retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't
already
know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list
of
keyboard commands for the program. Such lists are often available in
the
help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used
an
older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands
you
know will work.

--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org



--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Gene
 

Please simply copy it to the clipboard and paste it into Notepad and save it wherever you want.  Or learn how to move mail in your e-mail program.  If you don't know, ask on list.  It isn't a good idea to let mail accumulate in the inbox and it would be far better to save the message outside of the program. 
 
Gene

From: zahra
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

i recieve your message, but i want to have your tutorial in my inbox.

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Since you see the e-mails on this list, and since I've sent the tutorial
> twice in the last ten minutes, you should see it, especially since the
> subject line of one message states that it is the tutorial.  If you don't
> receive it, let me know.
>
> I didn't say that there is a ribbon interface in the new version of Firefox.
>  I said that in the options dialog, a ribbon-like interface has been used,
> but it isn't a ribbon interface.  You work with the options dialog as you
> did previously but the use of fewer items in the list, such as general,
> security, etc. and the use of category names as you tab along with the much
> larger amount of items you tab through, makes this far more like working
> with a ribbon.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: zahra
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:08 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA
>
>
> do you say that new firefox quantom has ribbon interface instead of
> previous classic menu?
> can you please send me your tutorial off list?
> please sen me via my gmail address directly.
> God bless you!
>
> On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>> Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.
>>
>> Gene
>>
>> I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to
>> work
>> with ribbons.
>>
>> I've added a little to it here.
>>
>> I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10
>> but
>> this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or
>> any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.
>>
>> First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that
>> you
>> need to know about-- the split button.
>> One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in
>> Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more
>> options than just the default action.  Let's take an example.
>> Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If
>> you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the
>> default
>> action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow
>> while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut
>> down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.
>> the
>> items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up
>> or
>> down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear
>> announced
>> as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions
>> without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in
>> menus.
>>
>> So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you
>> press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other
>> options
>> may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.
>> A
>> split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right
>> arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.
>> Try
>> both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a
>> tool
>> bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing
>> will
>> open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If
>> you
>> are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.
>> So
>> you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.
>> In
>> a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right
>> arrowing
>> will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when
>> on
>> the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars
>> run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be
>> sure
>> which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not
>> sure
>> or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display
>> more
>> options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split
>> button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite
>> direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open
>> more options, left arrow.
>> Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.
>> In
>> that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the
>> additional
>> options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if
>> you
>> want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down
>> arrow
>> to open it.
>>
>> Now, to ribbons themselves.
>>
>> Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if
>> you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands
>> effectively
>> and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS
>> virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about
>> ribbons
>> being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and
>> using
>> virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.
>> There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
>>
>> Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
>> Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a
>> good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.
>>
>> The essence of working with ribbons is this:
>> Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
>> You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
>> ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
>> To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move
>> through the ribbons.  Move in one
>> direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through
>> all
>> the menus.
>>
>> For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move
>> with
>> the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep
>> right
>> arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move
>> through
>> all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left
>> arrow
>> whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.
>>
>> Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in
>> what
>> is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.
>>
>> In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.
>> Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
>> So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
>>
>> Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or
>> enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and
>> if
>> you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
>>
>> Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to
>> work
>> with that item.
>> But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the
>> command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is
>> either
>> insert.
>>
>> Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert
>> tab.
>>  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear
>> is
>> the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the
>> command as often as you want.
>>
>> Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.
>> Return
>> to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can
>> either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.
>> Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
>> Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
>> You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down
>> grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to
>> worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at
>> the
>> application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.
>> Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear
>> all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.
>> When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu
>> and
>> move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example,
>> if
>> you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when
>> you
>> are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt
>> f,
>> then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon
>> programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important
>> and
>> common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options,
>> I
>> mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
>>
>> Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some
>> more.
>> To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to
>> the
>> ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would
>> move from menu to menu.
>> You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes
>> you
>> to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you
>> are
>> on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the
>> items
>> in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift
>> tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
>> Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you
>> tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category
>> named
>> respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab,
>> you
>> will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.
>> When
>> you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything
>> spoken.
>> You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking
>> about working with an unfamiliar ribbon.
>> there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.
>> So
>> memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly.
>> As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize
>> items.
>>  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you
>> see
>> if there is a category you want to look through.
>> Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for
>> view.
>> Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward
>> from
>> category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to
>> a
>> category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you
>> can
>> shift tab to move back.
>>
>> Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by
>> moving through it.
>> Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in
>> a
>> category.
>>
>> Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are
>> mostly
>> retained in programs
>> that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't
>> already
>> know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list
>> of
>> keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the
>> help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used
>> an
>> older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands
>> you
>> know will work.
>>
>
>
> --
> we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
> holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
> in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
> indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
> best website for studying islamic book in different languages
> www.al-islam.org
>
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org



 

i recieve your message, but i want to have your tutorial in my inbox.

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
Since you see the e-mails on this list, and since I've sent the tutorial
twice in the last ten minutes, you should see it, especially since the
subject line of one message states that it is the tutorial. If you don't
receive it, let me know.

I didn't say that there is a ribbon interface in the new version of Firefox.
I said that in the options dialog, a ribbon-like interface has been used,
but it isn't a ribbon interface. You work with the options dialog as you
did previously but the use of fewer items in the list, such as general,
security, etc. and the use of category names as you tab along with the much
larger amount of items you tab through, makes this far more like working
with a ribbon.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: zahra
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


do you say that new firefox quantom has ribbon interface instead of
previous classic menu?
can you please send me your tutorial off list?
please sen me via my gmail address directly.
God bless you!

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.

Gene

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to
work
with ribbons.

I've added a little to it here.

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10
but
this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or
any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that
you
need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in
Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more
options than just the default action. Let's take an example.
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows. If
you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is the
default
action. Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow
while on the button or down arrow. As an example, if you are on the shut
down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.
the
items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others. You up
or
down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear
announced
as you move through the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions
without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in
menus.

So, let's review. You find a split button that says shut down. If you
press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other
options
may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.
A
split button won't work with both methods. One method, either right
arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.
Try
both methods if you don't know which one might work. If you are on a
tool
bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing
will
open additional options. If you think about this, it makes sense. If
you
are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.
So
you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.
In
a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right
arrowing
will move you to the next item in the tool bar. So you down arrow when
on
the split button to cause it to display more options. But some tool bars
run up and down the screen, as menus do. And at times, you may not be
sure
which way a structure extends on screen. So, as I said, if you are not
sure
or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display
more
options. Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split
button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite
direction to move out of them. For example, if you right arrowed to open
more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.
In
that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through the
additional
options. I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if
you
want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down
arrow
to open it.

Now, to ribbons themselves.

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if
you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands
effectively
and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS
virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about
ribbons
being difficult to use. the training material is just plain wrong and
using
virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.
There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine. Wordpad provides a
good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move
through the ribbons. Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through
all
the menus.

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move
with
the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep
right
arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You can move
through
all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left
arrow
whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.

Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will move through all items in
what
is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.
Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use either the space bar or
enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and
if
you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to
work
with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use the
command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it is
either
insert.

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert
tab.
You will hear some extraneous information. The last thing you will hear
is
the short cut sequence. You can repeat the information by repeating the
command as often as you want.

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.
Return
to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons. You can
either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.
Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down
grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't have to
worry about. The important things are that you are on a button and at
the
application menu. Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.
Activating the button opens the menu. Start down arrowing. you will hear
all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.
When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. When you open the menu
and
move through it, you will hear all the letters announced. for example,
if
you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a. that means that, when
you
are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt
f,
then type a. Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as. Ribbon
programs have one menu and you should look through it. Many important
and
common commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By options,
I
mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some
more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to
the
ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you would
move from menu to menu.
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes
you
to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc. Once you
are
on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the
items
in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the items. So tab and shift
tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you
tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category
named
respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool bar. As you tab,
you
will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.
When
you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything
spoken.
You will miss the first command in the category if you do. I'm talking
about working with an unfamiliar ribbon.
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.
So
memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly.
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize
items.
You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you
see
if there is a category you want to look through.
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for
view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward
from
category to category and control left arrow to move back. When you get to
a
category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing. Of course, you
can
shift tab to move back.

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by
moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in
a
category.

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are
mostly
retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't
already
know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list
of
keyboard commands for the program. Such lists are often available in the
help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used
an
older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands
you
know will work.

--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Gene
 

Since you see the e-mails on this list, and since I've sent the tutorial twice in the last ten minutes, you should see it, especially since the subject line of one message states that it is the tutorial.  If you don't receive it, let me know.
 
I didn't say that there is a ribbon interface in the new version of Firefox.  I said that in the options dialog, a ribbon-like interface has been used, but it isn't a ribbon interface.  You work with the options dialog as you did previously but the use of fewer items in the list, such as general, security, etc. and the use of category names as you tab along with the much larger amount of items you tab through, makes this far more like working with a ribbon.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: zahra
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

do you say that new firefox quantom has ribbon interface instead of
previous classic menu?
can you please send me your tutorial off list?
please sen me via my gmail address directly.
God bless you!

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.
>
> Gene
>
> I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work
> with ribbons.
>
> I've added a little to it here.
>
> I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but
> this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or
> any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.
>
> First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you
> need to know about-- the split button.
> One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in
> Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more
> options than just the default action.  Let's take an example.
> Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If
> you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default
> action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow
> while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut
> down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the
> items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or
> down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced
> as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions
> without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in
> menus.
>
> So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you
> press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options
> may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A
> split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right
> arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try
> both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool
> bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will
> open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you
> are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So
> you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In
> a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing
> will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on
> the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars
> run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure
> which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure
> or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more
> options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split
> button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite
> direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open
> more options, left arrow.
> Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In
> that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional
> options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you
> want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow
> to open it.
>
> Now, to ribbons themselves.
>
> Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if
> you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively
> and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS
> virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons
> being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using
> virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.
> There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
>
> Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
> Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a
> good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.
>
> The essence of working with ribbons is this:
> Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
> You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
> ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
> To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move
> through the ribbons.  Move in one
> direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all
> the menus.
>
> For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with
> the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right
> arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through
> all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow
> whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.
>
> Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what
> is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.
>
> In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.
> Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
> So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
>
> Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or
> enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if
> you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
>
> Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work
> with that item.
> But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the
> command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either
> insert.
>
> Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.
>  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is
> the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the
> command as often as you want.
>
> Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return
> to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can
> either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.
> Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
> Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
> You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down
> grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to
> worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the
> application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.
> Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear
> all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.
> When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and
> move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if
> you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you
> are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f,
> then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon
> programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and
> common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I
> mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
>
> Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some
> more.
> To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the
> ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would
> move from menu to menu.
> You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you
> to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are
> on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items
> in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift
> tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
> Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you
> tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named
> respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you
> will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When
> you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.
> You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking
> about working with an unfamiliar ribbon.
> there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So
> memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly.
> As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.
>  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see
> if there is a category you want to look through.
> Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for
> view.
> Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from
> category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a
> category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can
> shift tab to move back.
>
> Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by
> moving through it.
> Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a
> category.
>
> Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly
> retained in programs
> that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already
> know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of
> keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the
> help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an
> older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you
> know will work.
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org



 

do you say that new firefox quantom has ribbon interface instead of
previous classic menu?
can you please send me your tutorial off list?
please sen me via my gmail address directly.
God bless you!

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.

Gene

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work
with ribbons.

I've added a little to it here.

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but
this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or
any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you
need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in
Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more
options than just the default action. Let's take an example.
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows. If
you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is the default
action. Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow
while on the button or down arrow. As an example, if you are on the shut
down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open. the
items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others. You up or
down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced
as you move through the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions
without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in
menus.

So, let's review. You find a split button that says shut down. If you
press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options
may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed. A
split button won't work with both methods. One method, either right
arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button. Try
both methods if you don't know which one might work. If you are on a tool
bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will
open additional options. If you think about this, it makes sense. If you
are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu. So
you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options. In
a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing
will move you to the next item in the tool bar. So you down arrow when on
the split button to cause it to display more options. But some tool bars
run up and down the screen, as menus do. And at times, you may not be sure
which way a structure extends on screen. So, as I said, if you are not sure
or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more
options. Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split
button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite
direction to move out of them. For example, if you right arrowed to open
more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow. In
that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through the additional
options. I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you
want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow
to open it.

Now, to ribbons themselves.

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if
you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively
and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS
virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons
being difficult to use. the training material is just plain wrong and using
virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.
There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine. Wordpad provides a
good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move
through the ribbons. Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all
the menus.

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with
the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right
arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You can move through
all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow
whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.

Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will move through all items in what
is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.
Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use either the space bar or
enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if
you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work
with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use the
command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either
insert.

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.
You will hear some extraneous information. The last thing you will hear is
the short cut sequence. You can repeat the information by repeating the
command as often as you want.

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu. Return
to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons. You can
either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.
Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down
grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't have to
worry about. The important things are that you are on a button and at the
application menu. Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.
Activating the button opens the menu. Start down arrowing. you will hear
all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.
When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. When you open the menu and
move through it, you will hear all the letters announced. for example, if
you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a. that means that, when you
are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f,
then type a. Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as. Ribbon
programs have one menu and you should look through it. Many important and
common commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By options, I
mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some
more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the
ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you would
move from menu to menu.
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes you
to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc. Once you are
on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items
in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the items. So tab and shift
tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you
tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named
respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool bar. As you tab, you
will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category. When
you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.
You will miss the first command in the category if you do. I'm talking
about working with an unfamiliar ribbon.
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu. So
memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly.
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.
You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see
if there is a category you want to look through.
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for
view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from
category to category and control left arrow to move back. When you get to a
category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing. Of course, you can
shift tab to move back.

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by
moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a
category.

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly
retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already
know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of
keyboard commands for the program. Such lists are often available in the
help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an
older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you
know will work.
--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Gene
 

Here is the ribbon tutorial, below my signature.
 
Gene
 
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 
 
I've added a little to it here.
 
I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized. 
 
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button. 
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action.  Let's take an example. 
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus. 
 
So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.  Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options.  I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
 
Now, to ribbons themselves.
 
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.  and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
 
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.  
 
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
 
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.  
 
Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 
 
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 
 
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
 
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.
 
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.
 
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f.  When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
 
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu. 
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon. 
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through. 
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 
 
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 
 
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Gene
 

This is a long message but I consider it important to answer such objections fully with the unending amount of negative comments and fear and dislike of ribbons.  People need encouragement, not discouragement to try ribbons with an oepned mind.  Unfortunately, most of what you hear almost everywhere is negative and my tutorial, which I sent recently to the list and which I'll send again in a separate message, demonstrates that if people are taught ribbons properly, most people will not fined ribbons to be the horror people portray them as.
 
The ribbons have categories such as respond in Windows Live Mail, for example.  You can move from category to category in a ribbon with control right arrow to move forward and control left arrow to move backward.  If you are looking for something, listening to the category titles as you move around the ribbon should tell you where it will likely be.  Where is forward likely to be?  In the respond category.  If ribbons were widely used, you would be accustomed to this system of organization.  it's just as logical as menus.  And ribbon programs have one menu which it is a good idea to look through very early in learning the program. 
 
You say menus are more intuitive than ribbons.  Then why is options in the tools menu?  Options aren't tools.  Tools are things you use to perform certain kinds of actions in programs.  Options are settings.  They may be preferences, but they are settings.  Why isn't options a submenu in settings?  But because you started using menus first and have used them for a long time, you consider such things to be intuitive.  Why do some programs have a settings submenu in the edit menu?  They have nothing to do with each other.  Again, it's what you are used to.  Why is compacting an e-mail data base in the file menu and not in the tools menu in Outlook Express?  %It's more a tool than file management, in my opinion, but you are used to it being there. 
 
There are slight disadvantages to ribbons from a blind user's perspective.  You don't hear things like control plus letter commands when looking around a ribbon.  For example, when in the respond category, if you hear reply, you don't hear control r announced, but control r is still available as a command.  That is a significant disadvantage and it could be and should be corrected.  But that is the fault of the designers and not inherent to ribbons.  It's the way ribbons are implemented.  The other minor disadvantage is that letter sequences are usually a bit longer if you use letter sequences to invoke a command.  For example, a ribbon sequence may be alt h f I a whereas a menu shortcut may be alt f r.  That's a minor inconvenience.
 
And, dislike ribbons or not, there may be a hint that designers of programs may be moving toward ribbon-like designs but not using ribbons themselves.  Look at the options dialog in the new Firefox.  It is designed in the same way a ribbon is, with faar fewer options to up and down arrow through in the list and far more items in the list you select to tab through.  And as you tab, you hear categories announced, because items are organized in those categories just as they are in ribbons.  And you hear categories announced as you tab around, just as in ribbons.  Is this a trend or just an isolated design aedoption?  I don't know but if you know about ribbons, the similarity is obvious and you know, by a bit of experimenting that the same commands to move by categories should be implemented by the designers as is used in ribbons, that is, control right and control left arrows.  It hasn't been implemented yet but those who want it to be implemented may wish to let the designers know.  And again, I wouldn't have even thought about this if I didn't know ribbons so knowing ribbons may help improve designs for everyone when ribbons aren't being used. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

Yes I too find the  ribbon not very  easy to use at all. Its not intuitive.
Everything may still be there and yes you can use keyboard shortcuts, but
when as often occurs you need to find some option you have no idea where it
might be, whereas in the classic menu its going to be in a common place and
its easy to swap places very very quickly, in ribbons its not that easy, its
a bit like a railway, where all the branch lines have branch lines but you
cannot see which branch is the one with your station on it and to get to
your station you need to go all the way back to your starting point to try
again.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "zahra" <nasrinkhaksar3@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


hello gene and gene nz.
i myself, dont have problem for learning ribbons, but i realy hate use
ribbons and prefer classic menu.
everyone has different taiste and different favor.
many people like ribbons, many like classic menu.
many like interface of windows xp or seven like me and many want to be
upto date and experience new things.
for people like me who want classic and traditional technology, there
are some programs like ribbon disabler in newer windows and also one
program that i found called classic menu for office which is
commercial.
i believe that microsoft should consider our need and interest and
provide the way for lovers of classic technology and does not fource
us to accept the changes!
can you please send me your tutorial off list?
i am afraid losing emails between thousands of emails.
God bless you and his infinite mercy i pray for you.

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Anyone can distribute or display the tutorial.
>
> If you want to label sections, that's fine.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Gene New Zealand
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 7:18 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA
>
>
> Hi Gene
>
>
>
>
> I was just reading the emails on this topic. If you allow me i can paste
> your tutorial up on Accessibilitycentral.net so others in the community
> can
> access it at any time to learn how to use them. it can go on a separate
> page
> and have the headings called split buttons and how to use ribbons with
> nvda.
> it will probably be along the same lines unless you want to give those
> sections a title each. the page it will most probably come off is nvda
> tutorials for other programs page just under the Microsoft word tutorial.
>
>
>
>
> I was thinking along the lines of maybe doing a audio tutorial on using
> them
> which i can add to that page for other programs page. It would be a day or
> so before it goes up there.
>
>
>
>
> That would be your written one.
>
>
>
>
> I think i might have some thing written on the windows 10 page but am
> thinking of removing it any how.
>
>
>
>
> I will put the tutorial is written by ..... unless you want it left off.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gene nz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/20/2017 10:25 AM, Gene wrote:
>
>   That is a different Gene.  I don't know if he put the tutorial I did on
> his site.  I don't restrict use of it in any way so it may be there.
> Also,
> I send it in e-mail messages and I never thought of giving it a title.  I
> just paste it into the message and send it where people want it.  So if
> people have placed it on web sites, I don't know what they may call it.
>
>   I'll send it in a following message.
>
>   Gene
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   Gene
>   ----- Original Message -----
>
>   From: Mary Otten
>   Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 3:17 PM
>   To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA
>
>
>   Hi Jean,
>   Wasn’t that tutorial on your Accessibility central website? I actually
> went looking for yesterday, maybe I wasn’t in the right section, but I
> didn’t find it.
>   Mary
>
>
>
>
>   Sent from my iPhone
>
>   On Nov 19, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>
>
>     I doubt there is such an add on.  I haven't heard of one and a google
> search doesn't show one.  I don't know who you need it for or what
> teaching
> resources are available to the person in question but I would strongly
> recommend learning real ribbons.  Despite all the gnashing of teeth you
> hear, ribbons are not difficult.  they are just a different way of
> organizing an interface and everything is accessible.  I wrote a tutorial
> on
> ribbons that teaches their use with Wordpad since everyone has Wordpad.
> I'll send it if you are interested.
>
>     I also can find a link to an article that explains why virtual ribbons
> are actually inferior to real ribbons.
>
>     I wanty to make one point clearly.  It may be that there are people
> with
> conceptual disabilities who would have a hard time learning ribbons.  Most
> people shouldn't have particular difficulty and it should be assumed that
> people can learn them until experience shows that they have an
> unreasonable
> amount of difficulty.  If people were taught ribbons correctly, the
> ongoing
> resistance to them would be significantly reduced.
>
>     Gene
>     ----- Original Message -----
>
>     From: abdul muhamin
>     Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:48 PM
>     To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>     Subject: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA
>
>
>                   Hi guys. As a subject mentions, I need an NVDA addon
> that
> works like virtual ribben menues in jaws, so is there any addon available
> for NVDA? Thanks
>
>
>
>     regards, Abdulmuhamin Yousaf!
>     head of the content department at
>     www.blindHelp.net
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
> material
> at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
> Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the
> NVDA
> screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
> location) is near to you please visit
> http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
> People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
> please
> visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
> certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
> individuals
> from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
> expert
> exam.
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org






Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes I too find the ribbon not very easy to use at all. Its not intuitive. Everything may still be there and yes you can use keyboard shortcuts, but when as often occurs you need to find some option you have no idea where it might be, whereas in the classic menu its going to be in a common place and its easy to swap places very very quickly, in ribbons its not that easy, its a bit like a railway, where all the branch lines have branch lines but you cannot see which branch is the one with your station on it and to get to your station you need to go all the way back to your starting point to try again.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "zahra" <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


hello gene and gene nz.
i myself, dont have problem for learning ribbons, but i realy hate use
ribbons and prefer classic menu.
everyone has different taiste and different favor.
many people like ribbons, many like classic menu.
many like interface of windows xp or seven like me and many want to be
upto date and experience new things.
for people like me who want classic and traditional technology, there
are some programs like ribbon disabler in newer windows and also one
program that i found called classic menu for office which is
commercial.
i believe that microsoft should consider our need and interest and
provide the way for lovers of classic technology and does not fource
us to accept the changes!
can you please send me your tutorial off list?
i am afraid losing emails between thousands of emails.
God bless you and his infinite mercy i pray for you.

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
Anyone can distribute or display the tutorial.

If you want to label sections, that's fine.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 7:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


Hi Gene




I was just reading the emails on this topic. If you allow me i can paste
your tutorial up on Accessibilitycentral.net so others in the community can
access it at any time to learn how to use them. it can go on a separate page
and have the headings called split buttons and how to use ribbons with nvda.
it will probably be along the same lines unless you want to give those
sections a title each. the page it will most probably come off is nvda
tutorials for other programs page just under the Microsoft word tutorial.




I was thinking along the lines of maybe doing a audio tutorial on using them
which i can add to that page for other programs page. It would be a day or
so before it goes up there.




That would be your written one.




I think i might have some thing written on the windows 10 page but am
thinking of removing it any how.




I will put the tutorial is written by ..... unless you want it left off.







Gene nz









On 11/20/2017 10:25 AM, Gene wrote:

That is a different Gene. I don't know if he put the tutorial I did on
his site. I don't restrict use of it in any way so it may be there. Also,
I send it in e-mail messages and I never thought of giving it a title. I
just paste it into the message and send it where people want it. So if
people have placed it on web sites, I don't know what they may call it.

I'll send it in a following message.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 3:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


Hi Jean,
Wasn’t that tutorial on your Accessibility central website? I actually
went looking for yesterday, maybe I wasn’t in the right section, but I
didn’t find it.
Mary




Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 19, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:


I doubt there is such an add on. I haven't heard of one and a google
search doesn't show one. I don't know who you need it for or what teaching
resources are available to the person in question but I would strongly
recommend learning real ribbons. Despite all the gnashing of teeth you
hear, ribbons are not difficult. they are just a different way of
organizing an interface and everything is accessible. I wrote a tutorial on
ribbons that teaches their use with Wordpad since everyone has Wordpad.
I'll send it if you are interested.

I also can find a link to an article that explains why virtual ribbons
are actually inferior to real ribbons.

I wanty to make one point clearly. It may be that there are people with
conceptual disabilities who would have a hard time learning ribbons. Most
people shouldn't have particular difficulty and it should be assumed that
people can learn them until experience shows that they have an unreasonable
amount of difficulty. If people were taught ribbons correctly, the ongoing
resistance to them would be significantly reduced.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: abdul muhamin
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


Hi guys. As a subject mentions, I need an NVDA addon that
works like virtual ribben menues in jaws, so is there any addon available
for NVDA? Thanks



regards, Abdulmuhamin Yousaf!
head of the content department at
www.blindHelp.net





--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.

--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


 

hello gene and gene nz.
i myself, dont have problem for learning ribbons, but i realy hate use
ribbons and prefer classic menu.
everyone has different taiste and different favor.
many people like ribbons, many like classic menu.
many like interface of windows xp or seven like me and many want to be
upto date and experience new things.
for people like me who want classic and traditional technology, there
are some programs like ribbon disabler in newer windows and also one
program that i found called classic menu for office which is
commercial.
i believe that microsoft should consider our need and interest and
provide the way for lovers of classic technology and does not fource
us to accept the changes!
can you please send me your tutorial off list?
i am afraid losing emails between thousands of emails.
God bless you and his infinite mercy i pray for you.

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
Anyone can distribute or display the tutorial.

If you want to label sections, that's fine.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 7:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


Hi Gene




I was just reading the emails on this topic. If you allow me i can paste
your tutorial up on Accessibilitycentral.net so others in the community can
access it at any time to learn how to use them. it can go on a separate page
and have the headings called split buttons and how to use ribbons with nvda.
it will probably be along the same lines unless you want to give those
sections a title each. the page it will most probably come off is nvda
tutorials for other programs page just under the Microsoft word tutorial.




I was thinking along the lines of maybe doing a audio tutorial on using them
which i can add to that page for other programs page. It would be a day or
so before it goes up there.




That would be your written one.




I think i might have some thing written on the windows 10 page but am
thinking of removing it any how.




I will put the tutorial is written by ..... unless you want it left off.







Gene nz









On 11/20/2017 10:25 AM, Gene wrote:

That is a different Gene. I don't know if he put the tutorial I did on
his site. I don't restrict use of it in any way so it may be there. Also,
I send it in e-mail messages and I never thought of giving it a title. I
just paste it into the message and send it where people want it. So if
people have placed it on web sites, I don't know what they may call it.

I'll send it in a following message.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 3:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


Hi Jean,
Wasn’t that tutorial on your Accessibility central website? I actually
went looking for yesterday, maybe I wasn’t in the right section, but I
didn’t find it.
Mary




Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 19, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:


I doubt there is such an add on. I haven't heard of one and a google
search doesn't show one. I don't know who you need it for or what teaching
resources are available to the person in question but I would strongly
recommend learning real ribbons. Despite all the gnashing of teeth you
hear, ribbons are not difficult. they are just a different way of
organizing an interface and everything is accessible. I wrote a tutorial on
ribbons that teaches their use with Wordpad since everyone has Wordpad.
I'll send it if you are interested.

I also can find a link to an article that explains why virtual ribbons
are actually inferior to real ribbons.

I wanty to make one point clearly. It may be that there are people with
conceptual disabilities who would have a hard time learning ribbons. Most
people shouldn't have particular difficulty and it should be assumed that
people can learn them until experience shows that they have an unreasonable
amount of difficulty. If people were taught ribbons correctly, the ongoing
resistance to them would be significantly reduced.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: abdul muhamin
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


Hi guys. As a subject mentions, I need an NVDA addon that
works like virtual ribben menues in jaws, so is there any addon available
for NVDA? Thanks



regards, Abdulmuhamin Yousaf!
head of the content department at
www.blindHelp.net





--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.
--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Gene
 

Anyone can distribute or display the tutorial.
 
If you want to label sections, that's fine.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

Hi Gene


I was just reading the emails on this topic. If you allow me i can paste your tutorial up on Accessibilitycentral.net so others in the community can access it at any time to learn how to use them. it can go on a separate page and have the headings called split buttons and how to use ribbons with nvda. it will probably be along the same lines unless you want to give those sections a title each. the page it will most probably come off is nvda tutorials for other programs page just under the Microsoft word tutorial.


I was thinking along the lines of maybe doing a audio tutorial on using them which i can add to that page for other programs page. It would be a day or so before it goes up there.


That would be your written one.


I think i might have some thing written on the windows 10 page but am thinking of removing it any how.


I will put the tutorial is written by ..... unless you want it left off.



Gene nz




On 11/20/2017 10:25 AM, Gene wrote:
That is a different Gene.  I don't know if he put the tutorial I did on his site.  I don't restrict use of it in any way so it may be there.  Also, I send it in e-mail messages and I never thought of giving it a title.  I just paste it into the message and send it where people want it.  So if people have placed it on web sites, I don't know what they may call it. 
 
I'll send it in a following message.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

Hi Jean,
Wasn’t that tutorial on your Accessibility central website? I actually went looking for yesterday, maybe I wasn’t in the right section, but I didn’t find it.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 19, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I doubt there is such an add on.  I haven't heard of one and a google search doesn't show one.  I don't know who you need it for or what teaching resources are available to the person in question but I would strongly recommend learning real ribbons.  Despite all the gnashing of teeth you hear, ribbons are not difficult.  they are just a different way of organizing an interface and everything is accessible.  I wrote a tutorial on ribbons that teaches their use with Wordpad since everyone has Wordpad.  I'll send it if you are interested. 
 
I also can find a link to an article that explains why virtual ribbons are actually inferior to real ribbons.
 
I wanty to make one point clearly.  It may be that there are people with conceptual disabilities who would have a hard time learning ribbons.  Most people shouldn't have particular difficulty and it should be assumed that people can learn them until experience shows that they have an unreasonable amount of difficulty.  If people were taught ribbons correctly, the ongoing resistance to them would be significantly reduced.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:48 PM
Subject: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

              Hi guys. As a subject mentions, I need an NVDA addon that works like virtual ribben menues in jaws, so is there any addon available for NVDA? Thanks

 

regards, Abdulmuhamin Yousaf!
head of the content department at
www.blindHelp.net

 


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.