On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via `.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page. I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice. Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available. You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages. There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available. And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices. Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time. the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users. And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech. When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu. I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as. That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out, it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not  argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers  one. These seem to be all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously  badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are  responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


.

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.

Hi.

Not checked out too many tutorials but I thought I could weigh in.

Yes, wordpad will handle rtfs just fine. But I have to ask: isn't html all-round the best format for these sorts of things? You can't put links in a text file, and html is pretty much cross-platform, so as long as someone has some sort of browser or viewer, they should not only be able to read the file, but effectively use a table of contents as well.

I don't have much of an opinion on audio. I know a lot of people like them but personally I would much rather just read something. But yes, I'd think a well-recorded file, converted to mp3, would be best for most people. You could keep the bit-rate down pretty low so long as the actual recording was of a decent quality (minimum ambient noise, etc). Even the rather expensive training materials from Freedom Scientific, when I reviewed them for my old work, were full of artifacts and crap that made them irritating to listen to. I know some people could do better, but, again, I highly prefer a simple html document containing text.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: November 21, 2017 3:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant for outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text download in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even adobe for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned text if allowed.

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office program to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't quote me on this.

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to have to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok, we don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we don't know how stable x person's net could be especially outside standard developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in every language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew a language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another language first posted without an english translation, and it would be better if tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it would have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are comfortable writing in their own language and as long as someone can translate into english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama session I never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read this message, the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really good idea but it really needs to be set up properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.




On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

I disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via `.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page. I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice. Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available. You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages. There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available. And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices. Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time. the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users. And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech. When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu. I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as. That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

I disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via `.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page. I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice. Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available. You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages. There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available. And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices. Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time. the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users. And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech. When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu. I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as. That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

To be honest for once I am probably on the side of fs which isn't usual.

Firstly if you use windows media player native formats and don't use a real high quality format the digital noise stream is encoded in the file to, and you hear it.

A lot of radio stations that were in windows media and even low quality real media had this issue, always sounded like an old radio in a shed with all the digital chatter.

The other thing is that a lot of tutorials especially the first manuals that came online especially if they were the same, for ages and ages were simply transposed from tapes.

Now I know now you can get reasonable recording restoration software but tapes to get your data off especially in those days even if they were good quality tapes would get a lot of hiss and machine noise.

You can fix this some what, but if you try to restore a record and yes I hav tried to cleanup a record with goldwave and really made it where I really made it sound normal all I got was the same digital signal clutter unless in stereo then it wasn't so bad.

Another thing, a lot of tapes were mono, and a lot of the tutorials these days are stereo.

And while a mono sound while a bit crappy in itself is just that, if you don't care the signal never was a real issue.

Make that stereo or even think of converting then you have a problem.

While you can probably split a digital mono signal to stereo, if that was a mono device like a tape to digital, with all the stuff I mentioned about tapes previously, well tapes are just not ideal to record off of unless they are stereo tapes or you just don't care.

I did recordings of tapes not from tape to computer, but actually played the tapes and taped to a digital device via a microphone.

Now I realise that this is or can be a problem if the environment aint right but its probably better if you can do it, Since you are dealing with a digital file hearing the audio from a tape.

And the environment sadly but oh well.

You can't exactly use that for production as such but you could edit a file and do that.

But I was dealing with stereo tape recordings on good tapes and dictaphones.

Its actually worse when you go digital to tape, fine for music but still.




On 22/11/2017 9:34 a.m., JM Casey wrote:

Hi.

Not checked out too many tutorials but I thought I could weigh in.

Yes, wordpad will handle rtfs just fine. But I have to ask: isn't html all-round the best format for these sorts of things? You can't put links in a text file, and html is pretty much cross-platform, so as long as someone has some sort of browser or viewer, they should not only be able to read the file, but effectively use a table of contents as well.

I don't have much of an opinion on audio. I know a lot of people like them but personally I would much rather just read something. But yes, I'd think a well-recorded file, converted to mp3, would be best for most people. You could keep the bit-rate down pretty low so long as the actual recording was of a decent quality (minimum ambient noise, etc). Even the rather expensive training materials from Freedom Scientific, when I reviewed them for my old work, were full of artifacts and crap that made them irritating to listen to. I know some people could do better, but, again, I highly prefer a simple html document containing text.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: November 21, 2017 3:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant for outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text download in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even adobe for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned text if allowed.

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office program to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't quote me on this.

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to have to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok, we don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we don't know how stable x person's net could be especially outside standard developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in every language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew a language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another language first posted without an english translation, and it would be better if tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it would have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are comfortable writing in their own language and as long as someone can translate into english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama session I never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read this message, the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really good idea but it really needs to be set up properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.




On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.

I'm not getting drawn into which synth you like. i am using Quincy on espeak and its fine, for me of course, not for everyone. some never ever even explor thevoices though which is a shame. ( No I'm not upset cos i created Quincy in the first place! Grin)
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Otten" <motten53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Hi Brian,
If all the new user has is E speak, I suspect that many of those new users will be finding a way to get another voice immediately. I certainly did that. I change voices as soon as NVDA was installed, because I don’t need to listen to something that takes me back 40 years to the beginnings of blind computer use. Thanks, been there done that. And using that voice when you’re doing any kind of a tutorial is in my view a huge mistake, since it is really not understandable for a lot of people. I understand why the folks at in the excess use it. It does have a lot of languages, although I did try the Russian one, just for fun, because I understand Russian rather well. It was awful. I guess a native speaker could deal with it. Anyway, for all you tutorial writers out there, please use something that sounds human or at least is as good as eloquence, which I also don’t like but is much more understandable than E speak.
Mary

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I  disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a  faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the  new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via `.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page.  I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice.  Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available.  You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages.  There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available.  And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices.  Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time.  the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users.  And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech.  When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu.  I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as.  That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not  argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers  one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously  badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are  responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.

Hi

I like old quincy as a voice same with Gene i use nice and clear are both of them.

Gene nz

I'm not getting drawn into which synth you like. i am using Quincy on espeak and its fine, for me of course, not for everyone. some never ever even explor thevoices though which is a shame. ( No I'm not upset cos i created Quincy in the first place! Grin)
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Otten" <motten53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Hi Brian,
If all the new user has is E speak, I suspect that many of those new users will be finding a way to get another voice immediately. I certainly did that. I change voices as soon as NVDA was installed, because I don’t need to listen to something that takes me back 40 years to the beginnings of blind computer use. Thanks, been there done that. And using that voice when you’re doing any kind of a tutorial is in my view a huge mistake, since it is really not understandable for a lot of people. I understand why the folks at in the excess use it. It does have a lot of languages, although I did try the Russian one, just for fun, because I understand Russian rather well. It was awful. I guess a native speaker could deal with it. Anyway, for all you tutorial writers out there, please use something that sounds human or at least is as good as eloquence, which I also don’t like but is much more understandable than E speak.
Mary

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I  disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a  faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the  new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via `.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page.  I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice.  Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available.  You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages.  There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available.  And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices.  Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time.  the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users.  And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech.  When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu.  I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as.  That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not  argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers  one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously  badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are  responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

On Nov 22, 2017, at 12:17 PM, Rayn Darren <rayndarren@...> wrote:

HI all,

I've been reading this thread for the past few days specifically regarding voices and speed. If we wish to be fully accessible and comply with all Accessibility Guidelines, we must include transcripts of all spoken materials anyhow. I do understand that doing so is another step and not only can it be time consuming, but some may see it as pointless particularly when doing a tutorial on something such as a new voice, it still needs to be done. After all, the last thing we wish to be accused of is accessibility inequality

As I offered with converting to html and proofreading, I am also willing to do transcripts.

Rayn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 2:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Of course if you use html you could easily have links to demos in audio, but
as has been said one needs to keep the speech rate slower than you probably
use and also how do you decide on a voice?
I know that sometimes the person giving the presentation can have an accent
that is often hard for some to understand depending on their life
experiences. Joseph is mostly good but now and aain as we all tend to do, he
can gabble a bit and that is when I struggle. I even do this myself when
talking about things I know about and its only when you listen to it later 
on that you  realise you have done it!
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Hi.

Not checked out too many tutorials but I thought I could weigh in.

Yes, wordpad will handle rtfs just fine. But I have to ask: isn't html
all-round the best format for these sorts of things? You can't put links in
a text file, and html is pretty much cross-platform, so as long as someone 
has some sort of browser or viewer, they should not only be able to read the
file, but effectively use a table of contents as well.

I don't have much of an opinion on audio. I know a lot of people like them 
but personally I would much rather just read something. But yes, I'd think a
well-recorded file, converted to mp3, would be best for most people. You
could keep the bit-rate down pretty low so long as the actual recording was
of a decent quality (minimum ambient noise, etc). Even the rather expensive
training materials from Freedom Scientific, when I reviewed them for my old
work, were full of artifacts and crap that made them irritating to listen
to. I know some people could do better, but, again, I highly prefer a simple
html document containing text.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun
Everiss
Sent: November 21, 2017 3:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant for
outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text download
in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not
sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an
audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even adobe 
for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned text if
allowed.

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office program
to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't quote me on
this.

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do
tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to have 
to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok, we
don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we don't
know how stable x person's net could be especially outside standard
developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in every 
language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how
translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a
language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew a
language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another language
first posted without an english translation, and it would be better if
tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it would
have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are comfortable
writing in their own language and as long as someone can translate into
english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama session I
never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read this message,
the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really
good idea but it really needs to be set up  properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into
english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.




On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not  argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers  one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.

What is quency?

thanks.

 

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

---

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Hi

I like old quincy as a voice same with Gene i use nice and clear are both of them.

Gene nz

On 11/22/2017 11:30 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

I'm not getting drawn into which synth you like. i am using Quincy on espeak and its fine, for me of course, not for everyone. some never ever even explor thevoices though which is a shame. ( No I'm not upset cos i created Quincy in the first place! Grin)
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Otten" <motten53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Hi Brian,
If all the new user has is E speak, I suspect that many of those new users will be finding a way to get another voice immediately. I certainly did that. I change voices as soon as NVDA was installed, because I don’t need to listen to something that takes me back 40 years to the beginnings of blind computer use. Thanks, been there done that. And using that voice when you’re doing any kind of a tutorial is in my view a huge mistake, since it is really not understandable for a lot of people. I understand why the folks at in the excess use it. It does have a lot of languages, although I did try the Russian one, just for fun, because I understand Russian rather well. It was awful. I guess a native speaker could deal with it. Anyway, for all you tutorial writers out there, please use something that sounds human or at least is as good as eloquence, which I also don’t like but is much more understandable than E speak.
Mary

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I  disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a  faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the  new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via `.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page.  I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice.  Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available.  You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages.  There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available.  And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices.  Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time.  the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users.  And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech.  When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu.  I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as.  That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not  argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers  one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously  badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are  responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

Hi

I like old quincy as a voice same with Gene i use nice and clear are both of them.

Gene nz

On 11/22/2017 11:30 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

I'm not getting drawn into which synth you like. i am using Quincy on espeak and its fine, for me of course, not for everyone. some never ever even explor thevoices though which is a shame. ( No I'm not upset cos i created Quincy in the first place! Grin)
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Otten" <motten53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Hi Brian,
If all the new user has is E speak, I suspect that many of those new users will be finding a way to get another voice immediately. I certainly did that. I change voices as soon as NVDA was installed, because I don’t need to listen to something that takes me back 40 years to the beginnings of blind computer use. Thanks, been there done that. And using that voice when you’re doing any kind of a tutorial is in my view a huge mistake, since it is really not understandable for a lot of people. I understand why the folks at in the excess use it. It does have a lot of languages, although I did try the Russian one, just for fun, because I understand Russian rather well. It was awful. I guess a native speaker could deal with it. Anyway, for all you tutorial writers out there, please use something that sounds human or at least is as good as eloquence, which I also don’t like but is much more understandable than E speak.
Mary

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I  disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a  faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the  new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via `.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page.  I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice.  Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available.  You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages.  There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available.  And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices.  Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time.  the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users.  And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech.  When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu.  I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as.  That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not  argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers  one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously  badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are  responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.