Topics

Too Much Serendipity. I'm Obviously Missing Something.


Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Afternoon:  I apologize for seeing your message a little late.  However, I might have a couple of ideas to try.  What happens when you press the backspace key?  The next question is the shift + tab key combination.  If the tab key won't do anything then the nexdt thing that comes to my mind which has been a help for many programs is the shift + tab.  This generally will take you back one tab stop.  If these ideas don't help, try pressing the application key which is the key to the left of the right control key.  After pressing the application key try arrowing down and see what options you have here.  It seems like the windows 10 has starting to place more options here.

Dave

On 1/25/2020 7:19 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:
First, thank you. I will try your suggestion.

After a night's sleep, I have figured out some of the
madness and it's definitely not right but somewhat manageable once
you know what it is.

I open a new window and start the program. I then load
the work file I am building and then virtually move the mouse to
the tree top. Next, it's expand the tree and visit one of the
eleven major headings, expanding as needed or just clicking with a
double-left-click for those that have only one level.

If you type the Tab key, you always start off by getting that strum
sound which means nothing is going to happen.

If you haven't visited any of the major headings and gone
in yet, your first attempt to open one usually works with the
double-left-click opening the item. The Tab key starts working
and you can do your work then a Single left-click puts you back
out on the street, so to speak.

Here's what I discovered however. After one visits that
first field in whatever area one chose, you can not apparently
visit other major headings. The double-left-clicks stop opening
things or they are the wrong things or you end up randomly
somewhere else depending on how confused things are.

The Tab key now either reopens somewhere you've been or
the point of reference is lost and you just find yourself at a
heading that isn't needed right now.

I haven't figured out how to clear everything without
exiting the program and reloading. something is remembering just
enough stuff to be wrong after the first object visit. That Tab
key will continue to not strum but launch you in to the walls
every time you press it until you shut the program down.

Note to Tesla. Don't use this logic in your AI efforts.

I did try NVDA+enter. It said "Activate" and nothing else new
happened but this is definitely an issue of wrong focus or
remembering irrelevant information.

As I say, I have never used a piece of software that is
so broken.

If it turns out there is a strategy to make it normal,
it's not intuitive by any means.

The only thing good I can say is that if you can access
the different major headers, the program behaves but it is like
pulling teeth to get it to just do what it should.
Martin


"John Isige" <gwynn@...> writes:
If you really just double-clicked again, i.e. hit numpad slash twice
quickly, that might be your problem. I'd just defensively use routing.
It seems to work, and that way you're sure that you are where you think
you are. BTW, this may or may not work, but if you're using the object
cursor, NVDA-enter activates the object the cursor's on. That might let
you get to some things quicker than hitting NVDA-numpad slash and numpad
slash every time.


Gene
 

I should have said you can move out of where you are working, since you are still in the program interface.  In other words, you should be able to move away from where you are working by moving in the object hierarchy.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Too Much Serendipity. I'm Obviously Missing Something.

I expect you can move out of the interface without left clicking.  Do you know how to move by object and in the object hierarchy?  You should be able to leave any object without clicking by moving through the hierarchy.  I don't know if left clicking to move is causing the problem or part of it but it isn't the way you usually move somewhere else when working with object navigation.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Too Much Serendipity. I'm Obviously Missing Something.

First, thank you.  I will try your suggestion.

After a night's sleep, I have figured out some of the
madness and it's definitely not right but somewhat manageable once
you know what it is.

I open a new window and start the program.  I then load
the work file I am building and then virtually move the mouse to
the tree top.  Next, it's expand the tree and visit one of the
eleven major headings, expanding as needed or just clicking with a
double-left-click  for those that have only one level.

If you type the Tab key, you always start off by getting that strum
sound which means nothing is going to happen.

If you haven't visited any of the major headings and gone
in yet, your first attempt to open one usually works with the
double-left-click opening the item.  The Tab key starts working
and you can do your work then a Single left-click puts you back
out on the street, so to speak.

Here's what I discovered however.  After one visits that
first field in whatever area one chose, you can not apparently
visit other major headings.  The double-left-clicks stop opening
things or they are the wrong things or you end up randomly
somewhere else depending on how confused things are.

The Tab key now either reopens somewhere you've been or
the point of reference is lost and you just find yourself at a
heading that isn't needed right now.

I haven't figured out how to clear everything without
exiting the program and reloading.  something is remembering just
enough stuff to be wrong after the first object visit.  That Tab
key will continue to not strum but launch you in to the walls
every time you press it until you shut the program down.

Note to Tesla.  Don't use this logic in your AI efforts.

I did try NVDA+enter.  It said "Activate" and nothing else new
happened but this is definitely an issue of wrong focus or
remembering irrelevant information.

As I say, I have never used a piece of software that is
so broken.

If it turns out there is a strategy to make it normal,
it's not intuitive by any means.

The only thing good I can say is that if you can access
the different major headers, the program behaves but it is like
pulling teeth to get it to just do what it should.
Martin


"John Isige" <gwynn@...> writes:
> If you really just double-clicked again, i.e. hit numpad slash twice
> quickly, that might be your problem. I'd just defensively use routing.
> It seems to work, and that way you're sure that you are where you think
> you are. BTW, this may or may not work, but if you're using the object
> cursor, NVDA-enter activates the object the cursor's on. That might let
> you get to some things quicker than hitting NVDA-numpad slash and numpad
> slash every time.



Gene
 

I expect you can move out of the interface without left clicking.  Do you know how to move by object and in the object hierarchy?  You should be able to leave any object without clicking by moving through the hierarchy.  I don't know if left clicking to move is causing the problem or part of it but it isn't the way you usually move somewhere else when working with object navigation.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Too Much Serendipity. I'm Obviously Missing Something.

First, thank you.  I will try your suggestion.

After a night's sleep, I have figured out some of the
madness and it's definitely not right but somewhat manageable once
you know what it is.

I open a new window and start the program.  I then load
the work file I am building and then virtually move the mouse to
the tree top.  Next, it's expand the tree and visit one of the
eleven major headings, expanding as needed or just clicking with a
double-left-click  for those that have only one level.

If you type the Tab key, you always start off by getting that strum
sound which means nothing is going to happen.

If you haven't visited any of the major headings and gone
in yet, your first attempt to open one usually works with the
double-left-click opening the item.  The Tab key starts working
and you can do your work then a Single left-click puts you back
out on the street, so to speak.

Here's what I discovered however.  After one visits that
first field in whatever area one chose, you can not apparently
visit other major headings.  The double-left-clicks stop opening
things or they are the wrong things or you end up randomly
somewhere else depending on how confused things are.

The Tab key now either reopens somewhere you've been or
the point of reference is lost and you just find yourself at a
heading that isn't needed right now.

I haven't figured out how to clear everything without
exiting the program and reloading.  something is remembering just
enough stuff to be wrong after the first object visit.  That Tab
key will continue to not strum but launch you in to the walls
every time you press it until you shut the program down.

Note to Tesla.  Don't use this logic in your AI efforts.

I did try NVDA+enter.  It said "Activate" and nothing else new
happened but this is definitely an issue of wrong focus or
remembering irrelevant information.

As I say, I have never used a piece of software that is
so broken.

If it turns out there is a strategy to make it normal,
it's not intuitive by any means.

The only thing good I can say is that if you can access
the different major headers, the program behaves but it is like
pulling teeth to get it to just do what it should.
Martin


"John Isige" <gwynn@...> writes:
> If you really just double-clicked again, i.e. hit numpad slash twice
> quickly, that might be your problem. I'd just defensively use routing.
> It seems to work, and that way you're sure that you are where you think
> you are. BTW, this may or may not work, but if you're using the object
> cursor, NVDA-enter activates the object the cursor's on. That might let
> you get to some things quicker than hitting NVDA-numpad slash and numpad
> slash every time.



Martin McCormick
 

First, thank you. I will try your suggestion.

After a night's sleep, I have figured out some of the
madness and it's definitely not right but somewhat manageable once
you know what it is.

I open a new window and start the program. I then load
the work file I am building and then virtually move the mouse to
the tree top. Next, it's expand the tree and visit one of the
eleven major headings, expanding as needed or just clicking with a
double-left-click for those that have only one level.

If you type the Tab key, you always start off by getting that strum
sound which means nothing is going to happen.

If you haven't visited any of the major headings and gone
in yet, your first attempt to open one usually works with the
double-left-click opening the item. The Tab key starts working
and you can do your work then a Single left-click puts you back
out on the street, so to speak.

Here's what I discovered however. After one visits that
first field in whatever area one chose, you can not apparently
visit other major headings. The double-left-clicks stop opening
things or they are the wrong things or you end up randomly
somewhere else depending on how confused things are.

The Tab key now either reopens somewhere you've been or
the point of reference is lost and you just find yourself at a
heading that isn't needed right now.

I haven't figured out how to clear everything without
exiting the program and reloading. something is remembering just
enough stuff to be wrong after the first object visit. That Tab
key will continue to not strum but launch you in to the walls
every time you press it until you shut the program down.

Note to Tesla. Don't use this logic in your AI efforts.

I did try NVDA+enter. It said "Activate" and nothing else new
happened but this is definitely an issue of wrong focus or
remembering irrelevant information.

As I say, I have never used a piece of software that is
so broken.

If it turns out there is a strategy to make it normal,
it's not intuitive by any means.

The only thing good I can say is that if you can access
the different major headers, the program behaves but it is like
pulling teeth to get it to just do what it should.
Martin


"John Isige" <gwynn@...> writes:

If you really just double-clicked again, i.e. hit numpad slash twice
quickly, that might be your problem. I'd just defensively use routing.
It seems to work, and that way you're sure that you are where you think
you are. BTW, this may or may not work, but if you're using the object
cursor, NVDA-enter activates the object the cursor's on. That might let
you get to some things quicker than hitting NVDA-numpad slash and numpad
slash every time.


John Isige
 

You wrote the following:


"    I then hit numpad / and got back to General Settings so,
for fun, I double-left clicked again which should have put me
back in General Settings.  It just sat there and a Tab press put
me back in."


If you really just double-clicked again, i.e. hit numpad slash twice
quickly, that might be your problem. I'd just defensively use routing.
It seems to work, and that way you're sure that you are where you think
you are. BTW, this may or may not work, but if you're using the object
cursor, NVDA-enter activates the object the cursor's on. That might let
you get to some things quicker than hitting NVDA-numpad slash and numpad
slash every time.


Martin McCormick
 

I will interlieve my answers with your message.
"Gene" <gsasner@...> writes:
I haven't used the program and I can't tell how much of your problem is
not knowing certain things about object navigation, the program itself,
or both.
I suspect it is both. The program is flaky under nvda
and positively bonkers under narrator. It actually opens better
at first under narrator as narrator appears to know how to open
the tree but then you start seeing stuff that shouldn't appear.

I don't know if you already know all this but I'd rather cover things you
know than not discuss something that might be helpful.
Numpad insert numpad slash is the move mouse command to the current
position of the navigator. Hold numpad insert and press numpad slash.
Slash by itself is left mouse click. If you are using numpad insert
numpad slash to move the mouse, then clicking and doing something, are
you then moving somewhere else, moving the mouse after you move and
clicking the mouse? If you aren't moving the mouse, you may be clicking
on where you were before and you may be clicking something unintended.
the position of the mouse might be the same, but the program may be
showing something else under the mouse because of actions you have taken.
Extremely possible in fact, my gut feeling is that focus
only appears to be okay but isn't part of the time.

Here is an example and I don't know what this means yet
but the trouble starts after here. Up to here, things work and
the program prints a message

Digital Contact Tree View item focus selected expanded 2
of 2 Level 2

That's good and normal. When I Down-arrow from there, the next
link looks normal and says:

Level 3 Stillwater 1 of 2

If you use the navigator device of nvda +numpad-5 to see what
focus points to, you get

Stillwater Local Tree View item focus selected invisible
off-screen 1 of 2 level 3

I believe that off screen part of the message tells us a
lot but am not sure what.

There is another heading called General Settings and a
double-click there sends you several lines down to a totally
unrelated heading. This time, I arrowed up to General Settings
and did a nvda + numpad-/ so as to move the mouse there.

I then double-left-clicked the mouse and wonder of
wonders, I was in General settings and could move around and
change stuff to my heart's content.

I then hit numpad / and got back to General Settings so,
for fun, I double-left clicked again which should have put me
back in General Settings. It just sat there and a Tab press put
me back in.

I hear insanity is doing the same thing but expecting
different results but doing the same thing and getting different
results is also a bit wacko. Also, I arrowed down about 5 lines
and then hit Tab and I was back inside General Settings. The
focus didn't move because I could type a single left-click and
was back on the General Settings heading once again.

Does all that help any?

This behavior is the norm when running this software and
it is enough to drive one crazy.


Anyway, it is what it is but I wish I could reset when leaving
one of the main headings so each new double-click takes you where
common sense says you should be.

I have been using Windows10 and nvda since last Summer
and never seen behavior like this. Everything else I've done in
Windows was fairly predictable and one gets the feeling of being
in control.

Thanks

Martin


Gene
 

I haven't used the program and I can't tell how much of your problem is not knowing certain things about object navigation, the program itself, or both.
 
I don't know if you already know all this but I'd rather cover things you know than not discuss something that might be helpful.
Numpad insert numpad slash is the move mouse command to the current position of the navigator.  Hold numpad insert and press numpad slash.  Slash by itself is left mouse click.  If you are using numpad insert numpad slash to move the mouse, then clicking and doing something, are you then moving somewhere else, moving the mouse after you move and clicking the mouse?  If you aren't moving the mouse, you may be clicking on where you were before and you may be clicking something unintended.  the position of the mouse might be the same, but the program may be showing something else under the mouse because of actions you have taken. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, January 24, 2020 4:46 PM
Subject: [nvda] Too Much Serendipity. I'm Obviously Missing Something.

I am using software in which most or all the regular
Windows keyboard shortcuts don't work so you have to use the
object navigator.  It's nvda + numpad / followed by numpad /
which is a left-click and you're at the top of a Tree View.
Arrow down and there's the tree name which you open and there
are, in this case, eleven items that one visits as needed to
throw virtual switches or enter data.

When things work, one double-left-clicks on a heading
such as General Settings and it opens to reveal several
configurable parameters so one does one's thing in there and then
presses the left-click to be outside of the heading, ready to go
to another heading or folder to open it and do things.

When it is cyber fun house day, the system is totally
dyslexic.  I can check the navigator with nvda + nunpad-5 and the
caret with nvda + Tab and they show the same field I am sitting
on with the arrows so I double-left-click and poof! I am at some
other randomly-selected part of the tree.

It's actually not totally random but it bears no
relationship to what I was trying to do.  It is heavily
influenced by where I've been while the app was running.

The software is a perfect training tool to learn nvda
because of the missing Windows keyboard shortcuts.  The first
time I ran it, nothing worked and that's when somebody told me
about the object navigator and it is a wonderful thing but there
must be something I should test for and manually correct.  It's
not losing focus so much as it just seems to take off to where
the spirit moves it. 

I haven't figured out the difference between the
occasional productive session and total chaos which is the rule
rather than the exception.

I am going to put a link to where to get this software
but I think the problem is I am still learning nvda and this
software is so lacking in indoor plumbing and electricity as a
figure of speech that I don't know all the tricks yet and there
is no other alternative but to use this particular software.

If the problem I describe sounds familiar, it is probably
common to deficient software and playing with this particular
software is not necessary.

        https://gd-77.s3.amazonaws.com/GD-77S%20Firmware%20V1.3.0%20%26%20Software%20V1.1.10_20190712.zip

This is not a particularly dangerous zip file but unpack it
somewhere you feel comfortable with it.

It will produce two directories, one with firmware in
it's name and the other with program in it's name.
We're interested in  the program directory.
You can run the setup and it will install gd-77S which
is the program.

It configures a brand of two-way radio of the same name
as the program

But the radio doesn't need to be present to run the
program.  It builds a configuration file that one feeds in to a
radio as a last step.

I have been able to use most of the program but it would
be nice to be able to dependably go
where one intended to go rather than pinball around getting
nothing done.

Thanks for any and all constructive ideas especially any
links to documentation for nvda which I say again, is a wonderful
tool which those of us who use it are thankful for.

Martin McCormick



Martin McCormick
 

I am using software in which most or all the regular
Windows keyboard shortcuts don't work so you have to use the
object navigator. It's nvda + numpad / followed by numpad /
which is a left-click and you're at the top of a Tree View.
Arrow down and there's the tree name which you open and there
are, in this case, eleven items that one visits as needed to
throw virtual switches or enter data.

When things work, one double-left-clicks on a heading
such as General Settings and it opens to reveal several
configurable parameters so one does one's thing in there and then
presses the left-click to be outside of the heading, ready to go
to another heading or folder to open it and do things.

When it is cyber fun house day, the system is totally
dyslexic. I can check the navigator with nvda + nunpad-5 and the
caret with nvda + Tab and they show the same field I am sitting
on with the arrows so I double-left-click and poof! I am at some
other randomly-selected part of the tree.

It's actually not totally random but it bears no
relationship to what I was trying to do. It is heavily
influenced by where I've been while the app was running.

The software is a perfect training tool to learn nvda
because of the missing Windows keyboard shortcuts. The first
time I ran it, nothing worked and that's when somebody told me
about the object navigator and it is a wonderful thing but there
must be something I should test for and manually correct. It's
not losing focus so much as it just seems to take off to where
the spirit moves it.

I haven't figured out the difference between the
occasional productive session and total chaos which is the rule
rather than the exception.

I am going to put a link to where to get this software
but I think the problem is I am still learning nvda and this
software is so lacking in indoor plumbing and electricity as a
figure of speech that I don't know all the tricks yet and there
is no other alternative but to use this particular software.

If the problem I describe sounds familiar, it is probably
common to deficient software and playing with this particular
software is not necessary.

https://gd-77.s3.amazonaws.com/GD-77S%20Firmware%20V1.3.0%20%26%20Software%20V1.1.10_20190712.zip

This is not a particularly dangerous zip file but unpack it
somewhere you feel comfortable with it.

It will produce two directories, one with firmware in
it's name and the other with program in it's name.
We're interested in the program directory.
You can run the setup and it will install gd-77S which
is the program.

It configures a brand of two-way radio of the same name
as the program

But the radio doesn't need to be present to run the
program. It builds a configuration file that one feeds in to a
radio as a last step.

I have been able to use most of the program but it would
be nice to be able to dependably go
where one intended to go rather than pinball around getting
nothing done.

Thanks for any and all constructive ideas especially any
links to documentation for nvda which I say again, is a wonderful
tool which those of us who use it are thankful for.

Martin McCormick