Topics

Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?


Pete <emac00@...>
 

One more thing using the mouse I set the mouse to word instead of paragraph reading.
Pete


Pete <emac00@...>
 

Hi
I use it with roxio easy dvd to get out of the window. Nvda doesn't work with easy dvd any more is this normal?
Pete


Mallard
 

David,

Now I know where I'd met you before this list... Was it on the Optacon list?

Yes, the Optacon is still the most direct way to approach any printed matters or screen content, and it isn't true that it's less efficient.

When I worked at IBM, I wasn't less productive than my sighted colleagues - actually I was moer productive, if anything. That was recognised by both colleagues, boss, and users of teh service.

I used my Optacon to read the text to be translated, consult dictianries, and read teh screen.

This technical ability is now helping me a lot to profit from NVDA's capability to use a physical mouse.
Not all screen readers work well with a physical mouse, and for this I'm particularly grateful to the NVDA devs, who thought of making the programme usable in this mode also.

It's so great to have multiple choices, and technical features that integrate and complement one another.

Ciao,
Ollie

Il 09/03/2016 23:26, David Moore ha scritto:
Hi Ollie,
I am an Optacon user as well. For those who do not know, the Optacon has a small camera you roll over printed material and pins vibrate on a display that form the exact shape of the printed material. You can read any Computer screen with the Optacon, and I can feel right where the mouse pointer is and use the Optacon to read the print around the mouse pointer. One must get their hands on an Optacon. In my opinion, it is the best technology there is, but younger blind people have probably never felt one. How sad, indeed. Have a great one.

-----Original Message----- From: Mallard
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 1:29 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?


I read something about thie Golden Cursor, but I have no clue as to
where it can be found.
Any ideas or links, please? I'd be interested...
Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 17:36, Aravind R ha scritto:
one add on called golden cursor helps us to navigate mouse using
keyboard by typing pixal positions.
but, we have to experiment the various pixal coordinate positions and learn

On 3/9/16, Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
Hello Brian,

I use a mouse from time to time. I have been using an Optacon since 1977
(I still use it daily, especially for multilanguage book reading), so
using a physical mouse isn't all that complicated for me.
Being used to exploring physical, printed pages, certainly represents a
significant advantage in mouse use.

My main difficulty is dealing with the boundaries of the mouse pad...

Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse
tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in
conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the
actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that
strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're
scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests
them. Of course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably
have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of
movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's
comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around
the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
experience was like learning how to use this feature and these
methods. I realize that there are certain applications and contexts
where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and
opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use
it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to
help shape my thoughts on this.

Brian









Patrick Le Baudour
 

Hello,

I do maximize the windows... when it is possible, but the less accessible things often are custom-made dialogs that can't be resized.
I had forgotten those bars could be hidden, though. I'll have to do that.

I've had to use it today on a java app that is basically not accessible with the keybord (not that I expected it to, it is a client for a go playing

and chat server that i used to go on a lot when I had sight.).
I had to move the mouse to locate and read me tabs, chat lines, buttons... i guess it was experience enough for me to change my mind a bit, it is workable especially with the bips for coordinated help, but it'll take some time not to be annoyed too much by those beeps.I'll still use the keybord only most of the time, but I may think more easily of the mouse as an alternative now.

Le 09/03/2016 18:36, Brian Vogel a écrit :
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 09:23 am, Patrick Le Baudour
<p.lebaudour@...> wrote:

I find it difficult not to be lost and finding a specific item on a
big screen

Patrick, just curious, but do you have the window for the program in
question maximized such that it covers the entire physical screen? That
can at least make things a bit easier since you're not "falling off the
edge" of your program with the exception of hitting the taskbar or
system tray if you keep those visible at all times.

Brian


Gene
 

probably scanner software won't be able to do these things but OCR software, used with a camera already can to a limited extent.  I don't know to what extent technology will be able to do what the Optacon did, but my view is that anything that carbon based beings can do can, given enough time and technological development, be done by other methods. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?

Hi rosemarie,
In the middle 90's, Telesensary quit making the Optacon. Not one has been
made since. People like me, who had one, has kept it working by having it
fix by only two people still alive who can fix them. It is so sad the
Opticon was put on the shelf like that, because scanner software will never
replace being able to read a pill bottle, a small piece of a label and so
on. I am so glad you had experience with one. There are old ones still
around if you can track one down Lol! Take care, and have a great one.


-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 7:31 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like
it?

Hi, David,

Wow, that's so neat you have an opticon. I learned to use one years ago and
was actually able to read a book on it. I wonder how expensive they are.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 2:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like
it?

Hi Ollie,
I am an Optacon user as well. For those who do not know, the Optacon has a
small camera you roll over printed material and pins vibrate on a display
that form the exact shape of the printed material. You can read any Computer
screen with the Optacon, and I can feel right where the mouse pointer is and
use the Optacon to read the print around the mouse pointer. One must get
their hands on an Optacon. In my opinion, it is the best technology there
is, but younger blind people have probably never felt one. How sad, indeed.
Have a great one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mallard
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 1:29 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like
it?


I read something about thie Golden Cursor, but I have no clue as to where it
can be found.
Any ideas or links, please? I'd be interested...
Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 17:36, Aravind R ha scritto:
> one add on called golden cursor helps us to navigate mouse using
> keyboard by typing pixal positions.
> but, we have to experiment the various pixal coordinate positions and
> learn
>
> On 3/9/16, Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
>> Hello Brian,
>>
>> I use a mouse from time to time. I have been using an Optacon since
>> 1977 (I still use it daily, especially for multilanguage book
>> reading), so using a physical mouse isn't all that complicated for me.
>> Being  used to exploring physical, printed pages, certainly
>> represents a significant advantage in mouse use.
>>
>> My main difficulty is dealing with the boundaries of the mouse pad...
>>
>> Ciao,
>> Ollie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Il 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
>>> The subject pretty much says it all.  One of the most interesting
>>> features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse
>>> tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in
>>> conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the
>>> actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).
>>>
>>> By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that
>>> strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when
>>> they're scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that
>>> interests them.  Of course, it takes some getting used to, and
>>> you'll probably have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed
>>> and distance of movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse
>>> movement that's comfortable for you.
>>>
>>> I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around
>>> the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what
>>> your experience was like learning how to use this feature and these
>>> methods.  I realize that there are certain applications and contexts
>>> where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and
>>> opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting.
>>>
>>> My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
>>> set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
>>> teach up front or not.  There's nothing like asking those who do use
>>> it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative
>>> to help shape my thoughts on this.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>














David Moore
 

Hi rosemarie,
In the middle 90's, Telesensary quit making the Optacon. Not one has been made since. People like me, who had one, has kept it working by having it fix by only two people still alive who can fix them. It is so sad the Opticon was put on the shelf like that, because scanner software will never replace being able to read a pill bottle, a small piece of a label and so on. I am so glad you had experience with one. There are old ones still around if you can track one down Lol! Take care, and have a great one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 7:31 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?

Hi, David,

Wow, that's so neat you have an opticon. I learned to use one years ago and was actually able to read a book on it. I wonder how expensive they are.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 2:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?

Hi Ollie,
I am an Optacon user as well. For those who do not know, the Optacon has a small camera you roll over printed material and pins vibrate on a display that form the exact shape of the printed material. You can read any Computer screen with the Optacon, and I can feel right where the mouse pointer is and use the Optacon to read the print around the mouse pointer. One must get their hands on an Optacon. In my opinion, it is the best technology there is, but younger blind people have probably never felt one. How sad, indeed.
Have a great one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mallard
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 1:29 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?


I read something about thie Golden Cursor, but I have no clue as to where it can be found.
Any ideas or links, please? I'd be interested...
Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 17:36, Aravind R ha scritto:
one add on called golden cursor helps us to navigate mouse using
keyboard by typing pixal positions.
but, we have to experiment the various pixal coordinate positions and
learn

On 3/9/16, Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
Hello Brian,

I use a mouse from time to time. I have been using an Optacon since
1977 (I still use it daily, especially for multilanguage book
reading), so using a physical mouse isn't all that complicated for me.
Being used to exploring physical, printed pages, certainly
represents a significant advantage in mouse use.

My main difficulty is dealing with the boundaries of the mouse pad...

Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse
tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in
conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the
actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that
strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when
they're scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that
interests them. Of course, it takes some getting used to, and
you'll probably have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed
and distance of movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse
movement that's comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around
the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what
your experience was like learning how to use this feature and these
methods. I realize that there are certain applications and contexts
where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and
opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use
it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative
to help shape my thoughts on this.

Brian




Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, David,

Wow, that's so neat you have an opticon. I learned to use one years ago and was actually able to read a book on it. I wonder how expensive they are.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 2:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?

Hi Ollie,
I am an Optacon user as well. For those who do not know, the Optacon has a small camera you roll over printed material and pins vibrate on a display that form the exact shape of the printed material. You can read any Computer screen with the Optacon, and I can feel right where the mouse pointer is and use the Optacon to read the print around the mouse pointer. One must get their hands on an Optacon. In my opinion, it is the best technology there is, but younger blind people have probably never felt one. How sad, indeed.
Have a great one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mallard
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 1:29 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?


I read something about thie Golden Cursor, but I have no clue as to where it can be found.
Any ideas or links, please? I'd be interested...
Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 17:36, Aravind R ha scritto:
one add on called golden cursor helps us to navigate mouse using
keyboard by typing pixal positions.
but, we have to experiment the various pixal coordinate positions and
learn

On 3/9/16, Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
Hello Brian,

I use a mouse from time to time. I have been using an Optacon since
1977 (I still use it daily, especially for multilanguage book
reading), so using a physical mouse isn't all that complicated for me.
Being used to exploring physical, printed pages, certainly
represents a significant advantage in mouse use.

My main difficulty is dealing with the boundaries of the mouse pad...

Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse
tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in
conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the
actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that
strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when
they're scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that
interests them. Of course, it takes some getting used to, and
you'll probably have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed
and distance of movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse
movement that's comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around
the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what
your experience was like learning how to use this feature and these
methods. I realize that there are certain applications and contexts
where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and
opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use
it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative
to help shape my thoughts on this.

Brian




Pranav Lal
 

Hi Brian,

 

I use a touch screen monitor for mouse moves. I make limited use of mouse navigation when I need to click on a link that requires a physical mouse click.

Note:

I got the touch screen monitor for the  audio screen add-on.

Pranav


David Moore
 

Hi Gene,
I agree with you. I want the greatest efficiency that is possible to compete with the sighted user. However, I want the sighted experience as well, because they have totally enabled me to keep a job in the past. In my opinion, using all of the commands that give tremendous efficiency combined with the sighted experience, and of course, nothing will ever replace the Optacon for being able to read everything on the computer screen. That is the best sighted experience by far. Have a great one.
 
 

From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
 
Having an experience that is more like a sighted person's experience may or may not be useful, depending on context.  The entire reason the virtual cursor, or browse mode, was developed for blind users is because using the mouse in the context of a web page and the screen layout of a typical web page is less efficient.  Nothing can replace the efficiency of using commands such as the skip blocks of links commands, the move by headings command and the find command.  Nothing can replace the ease of moving as though a cursor is being used. 
 
There may be contexts where moving with the mouse provides access to more information or to more meaningful information.  But using a web page to discuss possible uses is a bad example in most cases. 
 
As to whether to teach this feature, there may not be a general rule.  Many users may never need or benefit from it.  Then again, people who use a computer differently or for different purposes may. 
 
Someone wanting to use a computer for browsing, e-mail, editing documents, and other common purposes might not benefit at all.  Accessibility is usually very good for such tasks in much more efficient ways.  Someone using a computer to work with programs and screens that are not ordinarily well available, might benefit significantly. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
 
Hi,

I only use it when I have to, with some websites and programs accessible
only with the mouse.
I find it difficult not to be lost and  finding a specific item on a big
screen,  ( I assume it's much easier on a smartphone where you know
where you are and usually have a tidier screen content).

-- Patrick

Le 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel a écrit :
> The subject pretty much says it all.  One of the most interesting
> features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse tracking,
> which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in conjunction with
> the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the actual left and right
> click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).
>
> By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that strikes
> me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're scanning
> a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests them.  Of
> course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably have to do
> some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of movement,
> coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's comfortable for you.
>
> I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around the
> screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
> experience was like learning how to use this feature and these methods.
>   I realize that there are certain applications and contexts where this
> would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and opinions on where
> it's worth using and not would be interesting.
>
> My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
> set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
> teach up front or not.  There's nothing like asking those who do use it,
> or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to help
> shape my thoughts on this.
>
> Brian
>
>



David Moore
 

Hi Ollie,
I am an Optacon user as well. For those who do not know, the Optacon has a small camera you roll over printed material and pins vibrate on a display that form the exact shape of the printed material. You can read any Computer screen with the Optacon, and I can feel right where the mouse pointer is and use the Optacon to read the print around the mouse pointer. One must get their hands on an Optacon. In my opinion, it is the best technology there is, but younger blind people have probably never felt one. How sad, indeed. Have a great one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mallard
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 1:29 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?


I read something about thie Golden Cursor, but I have no clue as to
where it can be found.
Any ideas or links, please? I'd be interested...
Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 17:36, Aravind R ha scritto:
one add on called golden cursor helps us to navigate mouse using
keyboard by typing pixal positions.
but, we have to experiment the various pixal coordinate positions and learn

On 3/9/16, Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
Hello Brian,

I use a mouse from time to time. I have been using an Optacon since 1977
(I still use it daily, especially for multilanguage book reading), so
using a physical mouse isn't all that complicated for me.
Being used to exploring physical, printed pages, certainly represents a
significant advantage in mouse use.

My main difficulty is dealing with the boundaries of the mouse pad...

Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse
tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in
conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the
actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that
strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're
scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests
them. Of course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably
have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of
movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's
comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around
the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
experience was like learning how to use this feature and these
methods. I realize that there are certain applications and contexts
where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and
opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use
it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to
help shape my thoughts on this.

Brian




David Moore
 

Hi,
I use many of the NVDA navigation commands when using the review mode. I use the mouse only if the navigation commands will not do the task. With the NVDA review commands and the mouse capabilities, I can access software that I never could with JAWS. Some examples are the Avira screen, the Twitter app in win10, the entire screen of VLC media player, Calender app in win10, and on and on. I could never use these apps with JAWS. Have a great one.
 
 

From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
 
Yes, you won't see them if you are not taught to work with the web page and rely on artificial structures.  I very strongly believe that teaching the Internet well is done by teaching how to work directly with web pages and not with artificial structures such as links lists.  Blind people should know that you can tab or use commands provided by screen-readers, to move from link to link.  They should also know that you often have to use the arrow keys to see if there is text or other controls between links.  It depends on context.  But using the mouse is not the answer.  Learning to browse effectively as a blind person is the answer to effective web page navigation.
 
Blind people generally have a lot of problems browsing web pages because they don't know how to use existing methods effectively.
 
I work with a recording program where the time elapsed in a playing file can be seen using the NVDA screen review commands.  Using a mouse may provide the same access, I haven't used the feature you are discussing so I don't know.  But that is an example, the content is not accessible by using standard methods such as the arrow keys, to find and read it where other techniques are necessary.  I am not convinced that the NVDA screen review commands don't give as good or better access in terms of efficiency to such content in many cases.  There are times when moving a physical mouse using the feature you are discussing may provide the ability to do something.  But it would be important to hear specific examples from people and to know whether those people know and use the commands provided by NVDA as well.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:32 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
 

Rosemarie,

          Believe me, I know that using the mouse without being able to see it is hard.  It is, however, within screen readers that support it a very easy way to give a quick listen to what's on the screen that you might never see if you're doing things like listing all links and traversing the list or all headers and traversing that list, etc.  I've also found it interesting that on most sites there are hidden links specifically for those using accessibility software that the rest of the world never sees.

           I'm not so much interested (though I am interested, don't get me wrong) in whether someone uses the mouse as a pointing and activating device so much as whether they use it to get a sense of what might be on a screen just by running it around.

           It's also nice that at least some laptops allow you to configure the mouse such that it will not go outside the physical screen boundary.  That's under the "Momentum" settings for my Synaptics touch pad under "Enable bounce off screen edge".  While that would drive me crazy, as I often want the mouse to disappear, it would be incredibly useful for someone doing screen review via mouse movement.  This may be possible with certain mice on desktop machines, too, but I've never had one with that configuration option in that hardware environment.

           It was also interesting for me to see what I consider the weird difference in accessibility in PDF-XChange Viewer when using the conventional menu keyboard shortcuts and arrow key traversal, which gives you no feedback at all, but when you hover over the same menus with the mouse and draw the mouse pointer down the menu, each and every thing, including the menu title, is announced (this is all with NVDA 2016.1).  Why that would be is a mystery, since if there were nothing that NVDA could access somehow for announcing things then there should be no accessibility feedback in either method.

Brian


David Moore
 

Hi,
One of the main reasons I use NVDA as a back up to JAWS is because of what you can do with the mouse pointer. I love being able to move my finger around the touch pad on my Laptop and hear NVDA read what the pointer is going over. I have mastered it so well, I can use the touch pad almost as well as a sighted person and click. Just think, I can hear what I am doing with the touch pad and do a normal click or right click and totally use the mouse in a program such as a security software program. I sure cannot do that with the JAWS cursor! Go NVDA! May become muy primary screen reader before long. It is so much snappier in programs as well. NVDA works very well in Google Docs and all of those Google programs. Have a great one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jacob Kruger
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 3:45 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?

Brian, while don't honestly use it too often, the one true advantage
NVDA has in this context is that it actually reads out what's under the
physical mouse cursor, as wel l as letting you manipulate it using
keystrokes, whereas jaws will only let you use the virtual jaws cursor,
so, yes, at times NVDA's mouse cursor implementation offers something
you can't work with any other way.

And, the audio tracking sound is an excellent way to keep track of
approximately where the cursor is as well, what with stereo panning, and
pitch differences, etc.

Stay well

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Roger Wilco wants to welcome you...to the space janitor's closet..."

On 2016-03-09 5:15 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse tracking,
which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in conjunction with
the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the actual left and right
click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that strikes
me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're scanning
a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests them. Of
course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably have to do
some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of movement,
coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around the
screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
experience was like learning how to use this feature and these methods.
I realize that there are certain applications and contexts where this
would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and opinions on where
it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use it,
or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to help
shape my thoughts on this.

Brian


Jacob Kruger
 

Brian, while don't honestly use it too often, the one true advantage NVDA has in this context is that it actually reads out what's under the physical mouse cursor, as wel l as letting you manipulate it using keystrokes, whereas jaws will only let you use the virtual jaws cursor, so, yes, at times NVDA's mouse cursor implementation offers something you can't work with any other way.

And, the audio tracking sound is an excellent way to keep track of approximately where the cursor is as well, what with stereo panning, and pitch differences, etc.

Stay well

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Roger Wilco wants to welcome you...to the space janitor's closet..."

On 2016-03-09 5:15 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse tracking,
which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in conjunction with
the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the actual left and right
click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that strikes
me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're scanning
a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests them. Of
course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably have to do
some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of movement,
coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around the
screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
experience was like learning how to use this feature and these methods.
I realize that there are certain applications and contexts where this
would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and opinions on where
it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use it,
or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to help
shape my thoughts on this.

Brian


Mallard
 

Thanks heaps.
Ciao,
Ollie

Il 09/03/2016 20:12, Gene New Zealand ha scritto:
Hi Ollie

You can get to the golden cursor through the add on manager in NVDA. Just locate the button that says get add ons and when the browser opens it should be in that list of add ons. if not i think it can also be found on add ons under development.

All the commands are there to use it, but when you go to read the documentation, I think it needs comas so nvda slows between commands, unless I had that part turned off in NVDA.


Gene nz


On 10-Mar-16 7:29 AM, Mallard wrote:

I read something about thie Golden Cursor, but I have no clue as to where it can be found.
Any ideas or links, please? I'd be interested...
Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 17:36, Aravind R ha scritto:
one add on called golden cursor helps us to navigate mouse using
keyboard by typing pixal positions.
but, we have to experiment the various pixal coordinate positions and learn

On 3/9/16, Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
Hello Brian,

I use a mouse from time to time. I have been using an Optacon since 1977
(I still use it daily, especially for multilanguage book reading), so
using a physical mouse isn't all that complicated for me.
Being used to exploring physical, printed pages, certainly represents a
significant advantage in mouse use.

My main difficulty is dealing with the boundaries of the mouse pad...

Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse
tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in
conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the
actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that
strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're
scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests
them. Of course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably
have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of
movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's
comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around
the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
experience was like learning how to use this feature and these
methods. I realize that there are certain applications and contexts
where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and
opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use
it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to
help shape my thoughts on this.

Brian








Gene NZ <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi Ollie

You can get to the golden cursor through the add on manager in NVDA. Just locate the button that says get add ons and when the browser opens it should be in that list of add ons. if not i think it can also be found on add ons under development.

All the commands are there to use it, but when you go to read the documentation, I think it needs comas so nvda slows between commands, unless I had that part turned off in NVDA.


Gene nz

On 10-Mar-16 7:29 AM, Mallard wrote:

I read something about thie Golden Cursor, but I have no clue as to where it can be found.
Any ideas or links, please? I'd be interested...
Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 17:36, Aravind R ha scritto:
one add on called golden cursor helps us to navigate mouse using
keyboard by typing pixal positions.
but, we have to experiment the various pixal coordinate positions and learn

On 3/9/16, Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
Hello Brian,

I use a mouse from time to time. I have been using an Optacon since 1977
(I still use it daily, especially for multilanguage book reading), so
using a physical mouse isn't all that complicated for me.
Being used to exploring physical, printed pages, certainly represents a
significant advantage in mouse use.

My main difficulty is dealing with the boundaries of the mouse pad...

Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse
tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in
conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the
actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that
strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're
scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests
them. Of course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably
have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of
movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's
comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around
the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
experience was like learning how to use this feature and these
methods. I realize that there are certain applications and contexts
where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and
opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use
it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to
help shape my thoughts on this.

Brian





Gene
 

Yes, you won't see them if you are not taught to work with the web page and rely on artificial structures.  I very strongly believe that teaching the Internet well is done by teaching how to work directly with web pages and not with artificial structures such as links lists.  Blind people should know that you can tab or use commands provided by screen-readers, to move from link to link.  They should also know that you often have to use the arrow keys to see if there is text or other controls between links.  It depends on context.  But using the mouse is not the answer.  Learning to browse effectively as a blind person is the answer to effective web page navigation. 
 
Blind people generally have a lot of problems browsing web pages because they don't know how to use existing methods effectively.
 
I work with a recording program where the time elapsed in a playing file can be seen using the NVDA screen review commands.  Using a mouse may provide the same access, I haven't used the feature you are discussing so I don't know.  But that is an example, the content is not accessible by using standard methods such as the arrow keys, to find and read it where other techniques are necessary.  I am not convinced that the NVDA screen review commands don't give as good or better access in terms of efficiency to such content in many cases.  There are times when moving a physical mouse using the feature you are discussing may provide the ability to do something.  But it would be important to hear specific examples from people and to know whether those people know and use the commands provided by NVDA as well.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Gene
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:32 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?

Rosemarie,

          Believe me, I know that using the mouse without being able to see it is hard.  It is, however, within screen readers that support it a very easy way to give a quick listen to what's on the screen that you might never see if you're doing things like listing all links and traversing the list or all headers and traversing that list, etc.  I've also found it interesting that on most sites there are hidden links specifically for those using accessibility software that the rest of the world never sees.

           I'm not so much interested (though I am interested, don't get me wrong) in whether someone uses the mouse as a pointing and activating device so much as whether they use it to get a sense of what might be on a screen just by running it around.

           It's also nice that at least some laptops allow you to configure the mouse such that it will not go outside the physical screen boundary.  That's under the "Momentum" settings for my Synaptics touch pad under "Enable bounce off screen edge".  While that would drive me crazy, as I often want the mouse to disappear, it would be incredibly useful for someone doing screen review via mouse movement.  This may be possible with certain mice on desktop machines, too, but I've never had one with that configuration option in that hardware environment.

           It was also interesting for me to see what I consider the weird difference in accessibility in PDF-XChange Viewer when using the conventional menu keyboard shortcuts and arrow key traversal, which gives you no feedback at all, but when you hover over the same menus with the mouse and draw the mouse pointer down the menu, each and every thing, including the menu title, is announced (this is all with NVDA 2016.1).  Why that would be is a mystery, since if there were nothing that NVDA could access somehow for announcing things then there should be no accessibility feedback in either method.

Brian


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

The keyboard is sufficient enough for me since I don't do tasks that require the use of a physical mouse.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 10:27 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?

Having an experience that is more like a sighted person's experience may or may not be useful, depending on context. The entire reason the virtual cursor, or browse mode, was developed for blind users is because using the mouse in the context of a web page and the screen layout of a typical web page is less efficient. Nothing can replace the efficiency of using commands such as the skip blocks of links commands, the move by headings command and the find command. Nothing can replace the ease of moving as though a cursor is being used.

There may be contexts where moving with the mouse provides access to more information or to more meaningful information. But using a web page to discuss possible uses is a bad example in most cases.

As to whether to teach this feature, there may not be a general rule. Many users may never need or benefit from it. Then again, people who use a computer differently or for different purposes may.

Someone wanting to use a computer for browsing, e-mail, editing documents, and other common purposes might not benefit at all. Accessibility is usually very good for such tasks in much more efficient ways. Someone using a computer to work with programs and screens that are not ordinarily well available, might benefit significantly.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Patrick Le Baudour <mailto:p.lebaudour@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:23 AM
To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?

Hi,

I only use it when I have to, with some websites and programs accessible
only with the mouse.
I find it difficult not to be lost and finding a specific item on a big
screen, ( I assume it's much easier on a smartphone where you know
where you are and usually have a tidier screen content).

-- Patrick

Le 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel a écrit :
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse tracking,
which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in conjunction with
the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the actual left and right
click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that strikes
me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're scanning
a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests them. Of
course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably have to do
some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of movement,
coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around the
screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
experience was like learning how to use this feature and these methods.
I realize that there are certain applications and contexts where this
would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and opinions on where
it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use it,
or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to help
shape my thoughts on this.

Brian


Mallard
 

I read something about thie Golden Cursor, but I have no clue as to where it can be found.
Any ideas or links, please? I'd be interested...
Ciao,
Ollie

Il 09/03/2016 17:36, Aravind R ha scritto:
one add on called golden cursor helps us to navigate mouse using
keyboard by typing pixal positions.
but, we have to experiment the various pixal coordinate positions and learn

On 3/9/16, Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
Hello Brian,

I use a mouse from time to time. I have been using an Optacon since 1977
(I still use it daily, especially for multilanguage book reading), so
using a physical mouse isn't all that complicated for me.
Being used to exploring physical, printed pages, certainly represents a
significant advantage in mouse use.

My main difficulty is dealing with the boundaries of the mouse pad...

Ciao,
Ollie




Il 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse
tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in
conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the
actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).

By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that
strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're
scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests
them. Of course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably
have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of
movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's
comfortable for you.

I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around
the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
experience was like learning how to use this feature and these
methods. I realize that there are certain applications and contexts
where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and
opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting.

My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use
it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to
help shape my thoughts on this.

Brian




Gene
 

Having an experience that is more like a sighted person's experience may or may not be useful, depending on context.  The entire reason the virtual cursor, or browse mode, was developed for blind users is because using the mouse in the context of a web page and the screen layout of a typical web page is less efficient.  Nothing can replace the efficiency of using commands such as the skip blocks of links commands, the move by headings command and the find command.  Nothing can replace the ease of moving as though a cursor is being used. 
 
There may be contexts where moving with the mouse provides access to more information or to more meaningful information.  But using a web page to discuss possible uses is a bad example in most cases. 
 
As to whether to teach this feature, there may not be a general rule.  Many users may never need or benefit from it.  Then again, people who use a computer differently or for different purposes may. 
 
Someone wanting to use a computer for browsing, e-mail, editing documents, and other common purposes might not benefit at all.  Accessibility is usually very good for such tasks in much more efficient ways.  Someone using a computer to work with programs and screens that are not ordinarily well available, might benefit significantly. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?

Hi,

I only use it when I have to, with some websites and programs accessible
only with the mouse.
I find it difficult not to be lost and  finding a specific item on a big
screen,  ( I assume it's much easier on a smartphone where you know
where you are and usually have a tidier screen content).

-- Patrick

Le 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel a écrit :
> The subject pretty much says it all.  One of the most interesting
> features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse tracking,
> which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in conjunction with
> the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the actual left and right
> click buttons on a mouse or mousepad).
>
> By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that strikes
> me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're scanning
> a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests them.  Of
> course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably have to do
> some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of movement,
> coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's comfortable for you.
>
> I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around the
> screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your
> experience was like learning how to use this feature and these methods.
>   I realize that there are certain applications and contexts where this
> would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and opinions on where
> it's worth using and not would be interesting.
>
> My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature
> set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to
> teach up front or not.  There's nothing like asking those who do use it,
> or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to help
> shape my thoughts on this.
>
> Brian
>
>



Mallard
 

Oh, I agree.

Thing is, though, that I used to work as a translator long before screen readers and speech synths, with an Optacon on screen, so I supposethat makes it easier for me now to work with a physical mouse.
Ciao,
Ollie

Il 09/03/2016 18:32, Brian Vogel ha scritto:

Rosemarie,

Believe me, I know that using the mouse without being able to see it is hard. It is, however, within screen readers that support it a very easy way to give a quick listen to what's on the screen that you might never see if you're doing things like listing all links and traversing the list or all headers and traversing that list, etc. I've also found it interesting that on most sites there are hidden links specifically for those using accessibility software that the rest of the world never sees.

I'm not so much interested (though I am interested, don't get me wrong) in whether someone uses the mouse as a pointing and activating device so much as whether they use it to get a sense of what might be on a screen just by running it around.

It's also nice that at least some laptops allow you to configure the mouse such that it will not go outside the physical screen boundary. That's under the "Momentum" settings for my Synaptics touch pad under "Enable bounce off screen edge". While that would drive me crazy, as I often want the mouse to disappear, it would be incredibly useful for someone doing screen review via mouse movement. This may be possible with certain mice on desktop machines, too, but I've never had one with that configuration option in that hardware environment.

It was also interesting for me to see what I consider the weird difference in accessibility in PDF-XChange Viewer when using the conventional menu keyboard shortcuts and arrow key traversal, which gives you no feedback at all, but when you hover over the same menus with the mouse and draw the mouse pointer down the menu, each and every thing, including the menu title, is announced (this is all with NVDA 2016.1). Why that would be is a mystery, since if there were nothing that NVDA could access somehow for announcing things then there should be no accessibility feedback in either method.

Brian