Topics

competition


Don H
 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA should also have the same function the main question is whether or not NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to pay for a screen reader.


Gene
 

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  
 
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 
 
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.




Don H
 

I am one that hopes that NVDA doesn't try to compete with any other screen reader but continue to make improvements that makes the most sense relative to giving blind people as much access to computers as possible. Addons is a perfect way to introduce useful tools in a efficient way.

On 12/17/2017 6:07 PM, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run.
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] competition
When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


Rui Fontes
 

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...


Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...


Regards,


Rui Fontes



Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  
 
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 
 
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.





Gerardo Corripio
 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.


El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...


Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...


Regards,


Rui Fontes



Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  
 
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 
 
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.





-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi Gene


I when i gave windows eyes a test drive was a feature i wouldive turned off.


There was stuff or what ever they were called  were downloaded to the screen reader weather i wanted them or not.


You should not be forced to get them and pick only the ones you want.


There are people on this list with none some and quite a few add ons.


They should not be forced to get them but they need to be aware of them just in case they need that extra functionality.


Gene nz

On 12/18/2017 1:07 PM, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  
 
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 
 
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.




--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Mark <mark@...>
 

I agree,

I think there should be NVDA remote bilt in to NVDA

Mark.

 

Tune in to the number one station on the web TAFN radio
http://listen.tafn.org.uk:8027/stream
Or for our catch up service on demand http://www.tafn.org.uk/on-demand or to find out more ways of listening go to http://www.tafn.org.uk/radio

part of the accessible friends network
www.tafn.org.uk
Registered UK Charity: #1108043.

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: 18 December 2017 00:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Hi Gene

 

I when i gave windows eyes a test drive was a feature i wouldive turned off.

 

There was stuff or what ever they were called  were downloaded to the screen reader weather i wanted them or not.

 

You should not be forced to get them and pick only the ones you want.

 

There are people on this list with none some and quite a few add ons.

 

They should not be forced to get them but they need to be aware of them just in case they need that extra functionality.


Gene nz

On 12/18/2017 1:07 PM, Gene wrote:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 


David Moore
 

If many add ons are automatically downloaded with the screen reader, won’t that make the screan reader take up more room on the computer, leave a larger foot print, and just make the screen reader itself more complicated to use?

The great thing about NVDA that I like, is that you can have a very small, snappy, even portable program, and you can add just the add ons that you need. The fact that NVDA does not have a ton of features built in, makes it so easy to install, run, and you don’t need a ton of memory and space like you need with JAWS, for example.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Hi Gene

 

I when i gave windows eyes a test drive was a feature i wouldive turned off.

 

There was stuff or what ever they were called  were downloaded to the screen reader weather i wanted them or not.

 

You should not be forced to get them and pick only the ones you want.

 

There are people on this list with none some and quite a few add ons.

 

They should not be forced to get them but they need to be aware of them just in case they need that extra functionality.


Gene nz

On 12/18/2017 1:07 PM, Gene wrote:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 


Gene
 

That is an arbitrary distinction. 
Do you want JAWS to drop all nonessential scripts?  I don't think many people would support dropping Winamp support in JAWS.  In NVDA, what difference does it make if this support is achieved by an add-on, a script, or in some other way.  When do you define a script as a core function.  the distinction that no add ons should be shipped and running because they are not core functions is arbitrary.  and, to be consistent, why is the links list a core function?  I consider the links list to be a harmful feature for inexperienced users because it sounds wonderful to an inexperienced user but, if used before a thorough understanding of navigation is achieved, hinders learning by encouraging people to work in a completely artificial environment.  I'm not trying to start an argument about the links list.  I'm pointing out that the core function ideology isn't consistently followed even now, though it mostly is. 
 
its time to seriously consider the question, why must there be a distinction between add ons and the core of NVDA?  Why shouldn't some add ons be a part of NVDA.  Wouldn't developer resources be better spent doing other things than duplicating functions available as add ons so they may be placed in the core?  Just include the add ons as part of the product. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...


Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...


Regards,


Rui Fontes



Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  
 
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 
 
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.





Gene
 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.


El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...


Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...


Regards,


Rui Fontes



Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  
 
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 
 
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.





-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


Sam Taylor
 

I think we fail to remember how fortunate many of us are with decent internet connections in developed countries.

The top NVDA downloads come from India, with a growth of 8000 users just in the last quarter.

For many internet users, every megabyte makes a difference.

     

On 18/12/2017 10:50 am, Mark wrote:

I agree,

I think there should be NVDA remote bilt in to NVDA

Mark.

 

Tune in to the number one station on the web TAFN radio
http://listen.tafn.org.uk:8027/stream
Or for our catch up service on demand http://www.tafn.org.uk/on-demand or to find out more ways of listening go to http://www.tafn.org.uk/radio

part of the accessible friends network
www.tafn.org.uk
Registered UK Charity: #1108043.

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: 18 December 2017 00:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Hi Gene

 

I when i gave windows eyes a test drive was a feature i wouldive turned off.

 

There was stuff or what ever they were called  were downloaded to the screen reader weather i wanted them or not.

 

You should not be forced to get them and pick only the ones you want.

 

There are people on this list with none some and quite a few add ons.

 

They should not be forced to get them but they need to be aware of them just in case they need that extra functionality.


Gene nz

On 12/18/2017 1:07 PM, Gene wrote:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 


Cristóbal
 

Why not take the lead from modern browsers like FireFox and Chrome when considering what’s an add-on and what’s an integrated part of the program itself?

Think of it as NVDAZilla…

Incorperate what may be considered essential functions or would at the very least be highly useful towards the user experience and leave everything else for folks to tailor as they see fit? Sure that may still be left open to interpretation, but could at least be considered as a base to work off from.

Take FireFoxes reader view or whatever it’s called. In Chrome, you can install various extensions to strip down a website for easier reading, whereas in FireFox, this feature was finally built into the browser itself starting in the versions 40s.

It’s as easy as doing an alt+control+r to toggle on and off. I for the most part hardly use the Jaws Flexible Web feature anymore when doing general browsing since I find this to be a faster means of getting in and out of a site if I’m just passing  through instead of maybe a page or domain I would be going back to over and over again.

Having a reader mode or pagination command in NVDA I think would be useful by pretty much anyone. Not to say there couldn’t be add-ons built separately, but something like that… would essentially enhance the user experience.  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

That is an arbitrary distinction. 
Do you want JAWS to drop all nonessential scripts?  I don't think many people would support dropping Winamp support in JAWS.  In NVDA, what difference does it make if this support is achieved by an add-on, a script, or in some other way.  When do you define a script as a core function.  the distinction that no add ons should be shipped and running because they are not core functions is arbitrary.  and, to be consistent, why is the links list a core function?  I consider the links list to be a harmful feature for inexperienced users because it sounds wonderful to an inexperienced user but, if used before a thorough understanding of navigation is achieved, hinders learning by encouraging people to work in a completely artificial environment.  I'm not trying to start an argument about the links list.  I'm pointing out that the core function ideology isn't consistently followed even now, though it mostly is. 

 

its time to seriously consider the question, why must there be a distinction between add ons and the core of NVDA?  Why shouldn't some add ons be a part of NVDA.  Wouldn't developer resources be better spent doing other things than duplicating functions available as add ons so they may be placed in the core?  Just include the add ons as part of the product. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Rui Fontes

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:16 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 


Gene
 

Most of the extra space in JAWS is taken up by the OCR feature.  And JAWS doesn't take a lot of memory, which anyone interested can check when JAWS is running.  I'm not talking about when it is used with something like the putatively natural sounding voices.  I'm talking about when JAWS is used with Eloquence. 
 
As for making NVDA larger, it often takes years for a feature that is available as an add on to be incorporated into NVDA.  I see no benefit to users to simply not including an add on, once it is determined that the functunality should be a part of NVDA itself.  Someone else asked if making add ons a part of NVDA would make it more difficult to operate.  Why should it?  If you just don't use whatever commands the add on uses, why shouldNVDA be any different to use than now?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

If many add ons are automatically downloaded with the screen reader, won’t that make the screan reader take up more room on the computer, leave a larger foot print, and just make the screen reader itself more complicated to use?

The great thing about NVDA that I like, is that you can have a very small, snappy, even portable program, and you can add just the add ons that you need. The fact that NVDA does not have a ton of features built in, makes it so easy to install, run, and you don’t need a ton of memory and space like you need with JAWS, for example.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Hi Gene

 

I when i gave windows eyes a test drive was a feature i wouldive turned off.

 

There was stuff or what ever they were called  were downloaded to the screen reader weather i wanted them or not.

 

You should not be forced to get them and pick only the ones you want.

 

There are people on this list with none some and quite a few add ons.

 

They should not be forced to get them but they need to be aware of them just in case they need that extra functionality.


Gene nz

On 12/18/2017 1:07 PM, Gene wrote:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 


Rui Fontes
 

Sorry, Gene, but I do not agree with you...


1 - As other member said, remember that the two major "markets" are India and Brazil.

In those two countries, specially India, but also some parts of Brazil, every Mb of downloads count...


2 - Several NVDA actual core functions have started as addons, and since their utility the NVDA team included it in the core... So, not a duplicate of efforts, but more as a field test of the utility of that function...


3 - Every NVDA local or/and language community should maintain a database of the major addosns available to use.


Rui



Às 01:15 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.


El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...


Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...


Regards,


Rui Fontes



Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  
 
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 
 
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.





-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


David Moore
 

Yes, great point!

We must remember that many people do not have a fast Internet speed.

The size of a download matters a lot.

We are downloading all of our programs now.

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Sorry, Gene, but I do not agree with you...

 

1 - As other member said, remember that the two major "markets" are India and Brazil.

In those two countries, specially India, but also some parts of Brazil, every Mb of downloads count...

 

2 - Several NVDA actual core functions have started as addons, and since their utility the NVDA team included it in the core... So, not a duplicate of efforts, but more as a field test of the utility of that function...

 

3 - Every NVDA local or/and language community should maintain a database of the major addosns available to use.

 

Rui

 

 

Às 01:15 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 



-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Not entirely the thing. I think that the screenreaders try to add things that are genuinely useful, no matter what their cost is. That has little to do with a feature.
In my humble oppinion this function should be a part of windows itself, inedeed why windows cannot have a proper turn my screen off command I will never know. If you are using your machine to listen to audio do you really want the screen on all the time?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" <lmddh50@adams.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 10:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition


When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA should also have the same function the main question is whether or not NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to pay for a screen reader.



Mike and Jenna <schwaltze@...>
 

Hi,

 

Maybe nvaccess could come up with something like the windoweyes store that would run inside of nvda. If that was the case more people would know about the addons and be able to use the addons. The problem is right now you can download addons from any ware and install them which could still be the case with this implementation. Their could be a checkbox to allow apps or addons from unknown sources. By having the store it would make it easier for people and also allow people to use addons that have been approved by nvaccess even at work.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 


Mike and Jenna <schwaltze@...>
 

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 



-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

It sounds as though people have a misunderstanding of how windows screen readers work.  The other guy relies very heavily on it's own add-ons, called scripts.  The difference is that the other guy comes with many more customizations pre-installed.  Of course, you pay for them all, whether you use them or not.  Thanks to all the jaws-wielding seniors who paid for visual studio and microsoft sharepoint support.  Enjoy. 

Add-ons, scripts, apps, extentions, and let's face it, windows screen readers in premis are old paradigm.  The fact that we're still forced to use them, whether by manual instalation or base configuration, is against good modern design.  The real answer of course is for software designers to comply with accessibility standards and conduct proper quality control  Until that happens, hard coding screen readers through proprietary measures are the only recourse.

The add-on store isn't a bad idea.  Base-installing more add-ons might also be convenient, although that has it's own set of problems.  Meanwhile, we have to be advocating modern new paradigm design against the looming day when third party screen readers are a thing of the past.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 12:40:12 PM "Mike and Jenna" <schwaltze@...> wrote:

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 



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Adriani Botez
 

The thing is, as more users would comment on an addon and would create new issues on github to tell developers what they should improve, as more probable it will be that those functions will be taken into the core of NVDA. It depends on how many people are going to benefit from that function. So, the advantage of having addons is that there is a very good opportunity for users to give feedback and it gives flexibility for developers to implement that feedback faster.

 

If you would have a screen reader which has every function implemented, you would have to wait until next release to see improvements.

 

In my view, jaws has lots of functions which have not been improved since years. But it implements lots of new features and lets the old ones unchanged. As of now, jaws does not work with firefox nor with edge as good as NVDA does. Instead of bringing such features which will be used by a small part of users FS could concentrate on how to improve user experience for example through more intuitive keystrokes, simpler menue structure, better productivity features and so on. My perception is that FS is implementing every thing they have in one product (zoomtext, open book and jaws). So, Jaws is not only a screen reader but also a multi purpose application. If you are asking jme, this is a clear measure to reach more users and to increase the range of relevant customers..

 

And finally, it is the wrong way to make a market out of a screen reader. A screen reader has a very big social impact on people who have the same right to get access to information as sighted people. In my view a screen reader should be a social movement and not a product which investors hope to gain capital from.

 

So, the best way would be the screen readers to come together and build a powerful software, together with mainstream software developers. There are a lot of possibilities to get donations and sponsors for such a project and lots of jobs could be created without having to let the users pay so much money for a software. There is no plausible reason why a company would be forced to gain capital from such a product.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von erik burggraaf
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:50
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] competition

 

It sounds as though people have a misunderstanding of how windows screen readers work.  The other guy relies very heavily on it's own add-ons, called scripts.  The difference is that the other guy comes with many more customizations pre-installed.  Of course, you pay for them all, whether you use them or not.  Thanks to all the jaws-wielding seniors who paid for visual studio and microsoft sharepoint support.  Enjoy. 

Add-ons, scripts, apps, extentions, and let's face it, windows screen readers in premis are old paradigm.  The fact that we're still forced to use them, whether by manual instalation or base configuration, is against good modern design.  The real answer of course is for software designers to comply with accessibility standards and conduct proper quality control  Until that happens, hard coding screen readers through proprietary measures are the only recourse.

The add-on store isn't a bad idea.  Base-installing more add-ons might also be convenient, although that has it's own set of problems.  Meanwhile, we have to be advocating modern new paradigm design against the looming day when third party screen readers are a thing of the past.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 12:40:12 PM "Mike and Jenna" <schwaltze@...> wrote:

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.



 




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