FS generated a lawsuit against GW Micro for having the placemarker
function in Window Eyes. After a lot of time and money a Judge threw
the suit out.




.

Well we can't just blame fs, look at the apple vs samsung battles big

companies sue eachother.

The fact everyone let fs walk over them is unknown.

And no one cares really.

On 22/12/2017 11:41 a.m., Don H wrote:

> FS generated a lawsuit  against GW Micro for having the placemarker

> function in Window Eyes.  After a lot of time and money a Judge threw

> the suit out.

> 

> 

>

> 

> .

> 

On what grounds did FS (threaten to) sue these companies?

Antony.

On Thursday 21 December 2017 at 22:56:26, Sky Mundell wrote:

> You hit the nail on the head Erik. That certainly what did happen.

> Competition in the early days of the windows screen reading market was

> supposed to put prices down and put functionality up. Instead, FS sued any

> agencies who did not purchase JAWS and threatened them to either buy JAWS

> or be sued. These agencies should have argued that client choice was more

> important But back then they weren’t allowing client choice either. And,

> as for the sniping of AT companies, that is what happened. Remember that

> lawsuit that FS filed against Serotek, and GW Micro? I think this was in

> response to agencies starting to buy alternative screen readers for their

> clients that this lawsuit happened. These lawsuits were totally

> unnecessary and they should have dented fs’s reputation.

>

> erik burggraaf Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 11:09 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

>

> Competition makes a lot of products better.  I've never seen any evidence

> that this applies to screen readers though.

>

> Windows is the only OS without built in access.  Narrater is less and less

> useless all the time, but it's not up to the quality of what's built in to

> any other OS on the market.

>

> Windows is the only system with a multi-screenreader approach.  Lots of

> people tried to capitalize on android access, but the built in features

> are good enough to put paid and even free competitors out of business.

>

> Competition never brought the prices down or the functionality up.  Users

> certainly didn't benefit from the legal snyping of the big AT companies or

> the antitrust of microsoft building in it's own screen reader.  Oddly

> enough, the same people who lobbied against microsoft building it's own

> screen reader also lobbie governments for exclusivity agreements to sell

> only one of the so called competing products.  What do we call that when

> microsoft tries it?  Antitrust.  Huh...  How do users benefit from the

> exclusivity agreements?

>

> NVDA development isn't driven by competition with other screen readers.

> It's driven by the community through donations of code and money and other

> talents derived from the community.

>

> Even when there were many products competing in the market, I didn't see

> any evidence that the competition improved the over all performance,

> stability, feature sets or monitary value of screen reader products in

> general.

>

> Now that the actual number of windows screen readers is shrinking, and the

> number of viably accessible OS is growing, and the business models of

> windows screen readers are so dramatically different, I believe pmarket

> competition is even less important than it was five or ten yearss ago.  I

> mean, what's the value of an exclusivity agreement to sell only one

> product when the next best competitor can be downloaded for free by any

> one with a computer?

>

> Best,

>

> Erik

>

> On December 20, 2017 12:45:24 AM "Sarah k Alawami" wrote:

>

> I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and

> better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when

> it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with

> a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that

> nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

--

"Microsoft's profit margins require a monopoly lock on the market; thus,

they're stuck with being predatory evil bastards. The moment they stop being

predatory evil bastards, their stock price will tank and their options pyramid

will crash and it will be all over."

- Eric S Raymond

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

Well we can't just blame fs, look at the apple vs samsung battles big companies sue eachother.

The fact everyone let fs walk over them is unknown.

And no one cares really.




On 22/12/2017 11:41 a.m., Don H wrote:

FS generated a lawsuit against GW Micro for having the placemarker function in Window Eyes. After a lot of time and money a Judge threw the suit out.



.

FS generated a lawsuit  against GW Micro for having the placemarker function in Window Eyes.  After a lot of time and money a Judge threw the suit out.



.

Oh, I thought the suggestion from Sky Mundell's posting was that "FS sued any
agencies who did not purchase JAWS", so it wasn't anything to do with suing
other screenreader companies, but suing potential customers.
That's what I found rather confusing.
Thanks for the clarification (and good to know that they were unsuccessful).
Antony.
On Thursday 21 December 2017 at 23:41:11, Don H wrote:

FS generated a lawsuit against GW Micro for having the placemarker
function in Window Eyes. After a lot of time and money a Judge threw
the suit out.

FS generated a lawsuit against GW Micro for having the placemarker
function in Window Eyes. After a lot of time and money a Judge threw
the suit out.

FS generated a lawsuit against GW Micro for having the placemarker
function in Window Eyes. After a lot of time and money a Judge threw
the suit out.

You hit the nail on the head Erik. That certainly what did happen.
Competition in the early days of the windows screen reading market was
supposed to put prices down and put functionality up. Instead, FS sued any
agencies who did not purchase JAWS and threatened them to either buy JAWS
or be sued. These agencies should have argued that client choice was more
important But back then they weren’t allowing client choice either. And,
as for the sniping of AT companies, that is what happened. Remember that
lawsuit that FS filed against Serotek, and GW Micro? I think this was in
response to agencies starting to buy alternative screen readers for their
clients that this lawsuit happened. These lawsuits were totally
unnecessary and they should have dented fs’s reputation.

erik burggraaf Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 11:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Competition makes a lot of products better. I've never seen any evidence
that this applies to screen readers though.

Windows is the only OS without built in access. Narrater is less and less
useless all the time, but it's not up to the quality of what's built in to
any other OS on the market.

Windows is the only system with a multi-screenreader approach. Lots of
people tried to capitalize on android access, but the built in features
are good enough to put paid and even free competitors out of business.

Competition never brought the prices down or the functionality up. Users
certainly didn't benefit from the legal snyping of the big AT companies or
the antitrust of microsoft building in it's own screen reader. Oddly
enough, the same people who lobbied against microsoft building it's own
screen reader also lobbie governments for exclusivity agreements to sell
only one of the so called competing products. What do we call that when
microsoft tries it? Antitrust. Huh... How do users benefit from the
exclusivity agreements?

NVDA development isn't driven by competition with other screen readers.
It's driven by the community through donations of code and money and other
talents derived from the community.

Even when there were many products competing in the market, I didn't see
any evidence that the competition improved the over all performance,
stability, feature sets or monitary value of screen reader products in
general.

Now that the actual number of windows screen readers is shrinking, and the
number of viably accessible OS is growing, and the business models of
windows screen readers are so dramatically different, I believe pmarket
competition is even less important than it was five or ten yearss ago. I
mean, what's the value of an exclusivity agreement to sell only one
product when the next best competitor can be downloaded for free by any
one with a computer?

Best,

Erik

On December 20, 2017 12:45:24 AM "Sarah k Alawami" wrote:

I'm actually up for competition. It will make each product better and
better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007 when
it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with
a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that
nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

It enter to open a new MSG.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Hi, please double check.  I'm pretty sure I wrote less useless.  Narrater is supposedly getting better, though I myself haven't found it useful for anything except the windows setup screens and installing NVDA on a new computer.  :-)  When it does come up to spec it will prove my point about competition not improving the quality of screen readers.

In fact, it's fair to say that software designers and screen reader designers are increasingly being forced by microsoft to standardize.  More and more of the underlying frameworks that control access are coming from microsoft.  That being the case, it makes less and less difference which screen reader you use since they use all of the same guts.  Why then pay enterprise prices when you can have NVDA, or narrater if it gets good enough.

Then again, windows seems to be headed toward cloud based OS workable across devices.  So, will windows require it's own screen reader in three to five years, or will it be talkback and voiceover compatible?

Best,

Erik

Hi, please double check.  I'm pretty sure I wrote less useless.  Narrater is supposedly getting better, though I myself haven't found it useful for anything except the windows setup screens and installing NVDA on a new computer.  :-)  When it does come up to spec it will prove my point about competition not improving the quality of screen readers.

In fact, it's fair to say that software designers and screen reader designers are increasingly being forced by microsoft to standardize.  More and more of the underlying frameworks that control access are coming from microsoft.  That being the case, it makes less and less difference which screen reader you use since they use all of the same guts.  Why then pay enterprise prices when you can have NVDA, or narrater if it gets good enough.

Then again, windows seems to be headed toward cloud based OS workable across devices.  So, will windows require it's own screen reader in three to five years, or will it be talkback and voiceover compatible?

Best,

Erik

On Dec 21, 2017, at 11:48 AM, erik burggraaf <erik@...> wrote:

Hi, please double check.  I'm pretty sure I wrote less useless.  Narrater is supposedly getting better, though I myself haven't found it useful for anything except the windows setup screens and installing NVDA on a new computer.  :-)  When it does come up to spec it will prove my point about competition not improving the quality of screen readers.

In fact, it's fair to say that software designers and screen reader designers are increasingly being forced by microsoft to standardize.  More and more of the underlying frameworks that control access are coming from microsoft.  That being the case, it makes less and less difference which screen reader you use since they use all of the same guts.  Why then pay enterprise prices when you can have NVDA, or narrater if it gets good enough.

Then again, windows seems to be headed toward cloud based OS workable across devices.  So, will windows require it's own screen reader in three to five years, or will it be talkback and voiceover compatible?

Best,

Erik

On December 21, 2017 2:19:33 PM "Lino Morales" <linomorales001@...> wrote:

R more uuseless? Itss gotten better under WIN 10.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Competition makes a lot of products better.  I've never seen any evidence that this applies to screen readers though.

Windows is the only OS without built in access.  Narrater is less and less useless all the time, but it's not up to the quality of what's built in to any other OS on the market.

Windows is the only system with a multi-screenreader approach.  Lots of people tried to capitalize on android access, but the built in features are good enough to put paid and even free competitors out of business.

Competition never brought the prices down or the functionality up.  Users certainly didn't benefit from the legal snyping of the big AT companies or the antitrust of microsoft building in it's own screen reader.  Oddly enough, the same people who lobbied against microsoft building it's own screen reader also lobbie governments for exclusivity agreements to sell only one of the so called competing products.  What do we call that when microsoft tries it?  Antitrust.  Huh...  How do users benefit from the exclusivity agreements?

NVDA development isn't driven by competition with other screen readers.  It's driven by the community through donations of code and money and other talents derived from the community.  

Even when there were many products competing in the market, I didn't see any evidence that the competition improved the over all performance, stability, feature sets or monitary value of screen reader products in general.

Now that the actual number of windows screen readers is shrinking, and the number of viably accessible OS is growing, and the business models of windows screen readers are so dramatically different, I believe pmarket competition is even less important than it was five or ten yearss ago.  I mean, what's the value of an exclusivity agreement to sell only one product when the next best competitor can be downloaded for free by any one with a computer?

Best,

Erik

On December 20, 2017 12:45:24 AM "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> wrote:

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

 

Take care

On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.

 

On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

 I'm not sure what language you are writing?

What screen reader are  you using voice over?

The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?

When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.

Does that make sense to you?

 

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...

 

On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?

That way we can choose which version to down load?

personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.

People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@...
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.

 

On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,

Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.

If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?

I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00

 

Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.

I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.

 

 

EMAIL:karimlakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gerardo Corripio

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA 
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not 
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more 
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to 
pay for a screen reader.

-- 

Gera

Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 

 

 

R more uuseless? Itss gotten better under WIN 10.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Competition makes a lot of products better.  I've never seen any evidence that this applies to screen readers though.

Windows is the only OS without built in access.  Narrater is less and less useless all the time, but it's not up to the quality of what's built in to any other OS on the market.

Windows is the only system with a multi-screenreader approach.  Lots of people tried to capitalize on android access, but the built in features are good enough to put paid and even free competitors out of business.

Competition never brought the prices down or the functionality up.  Users certainly didn't benefit from the legal snyping of the big AT companies or the antitrust of microsoft building in it's own screen reader.  Oddly enough, the same people who lobbied against microsoft building it's own screen reader also lobbie governments for exclusivity agreements to sell only one of the so called competing products.  What do we call that when microsoft tries it?  Antitrust.  Huh...  How do users benefit from the exclusivity agreements?

NVDA development isn't driven by competition with other screen readers.  It's driven by the community through donations of code and money and other talents derived from the community. 

Even when there were many products competing in the market, I didn't see any evidence that the competition improved the over all performance, stability, feature sets or monitary value of screen reader products in general.

Now that the actual number of windows screen readers is shrinking, and the number of viably accessible OS is growing, and the business models of windows screen readers are so dramatically different, I believe pmarket competition is even less important than it was five or ten yearss ago.  I mean, what's the value of an exclusivity agreement to sell only one product when the next best competitor can be downloaded for free by any one with a computer?

Best,

Erik

On December 20, 2017 12:45:24 AM "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> wrote:

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

 

Take care

On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.

 

On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

 I'm not sure what language you are writing?

What screen reader are  you using voice over?

The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?

When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.

Does that make sense to you?

 

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...

 

On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?

That way we can choose which version to down load?

personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.

People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@...
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.

 

On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,

Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.

If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?

I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00

 

Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.

I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.

 

 

EMAIL:karimlakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gerardo Corripio

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA 
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not 
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more 
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to 
pay for a screen reader.

-- 

Gera

Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 

 

 

Competition makes a lot of products better.  I've never seen any evidence that this applies to screen readers though.

Windows is the only OS without built in access.  Narrater is less and less useless all the time, but it's not up to the quality of what's built in to any other OS on the market.

Windows is the only system with a multi-screenreader approach.  Lots of people tried to capitalize on android access, but the built in features are good enough to put paid and even free competitors out of business.

Competition never brought the prices down or the functionality up.  Users certainly didn't benefit from the legal snyping of the big AT companies or the antitrust of microsoft building in it's own screen reader.  Oddly enough, the same people who lobbied against microsoft building it's own screen reader also lobbie governments for exclusivity agreements to sell only one of the so called competing products.  What do we call that when microsoft tries it?  Antitrust.  Huh...  How do users benefit from the exclusivity agreements?

NVDA development isn't driven by competition with other screen readers.  It's driven by the community through donations of code and money and other talents derived from the community. 

Even when there were many products competing in the market, I didn't see any evidence that the competition improved the over all performance, stability, feature sets or monitary value of screen reader products in general.

Now that the actual number of windows screen readers is shrinking, and the number of viably accessible OS is growing, and the business models of windows screen readers are so dramatically different, I believe pmarket competition is even less important than it was five or ten yearss ago.  I mean, what's the value of an exclusivity agreement to sell only one product when the next best competitor can be downloaded for free by any one with a computer?

Best,

Erik

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

Take care

On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.

On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

 I'm not sure what language you are writing?

What screen reader are  you using voice over?

The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?

When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.

Does that make sense to you?

 

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

---

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...

On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?

That way we can choose which version to down load?

personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.

People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

---

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@...
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.

On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,

Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.

If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?

I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00

 

Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.

I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

---

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gerardo Corripio

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA 
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not 
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more 
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to 
pay for a screen reader.

-- 

Gera

Enviado desde Thunderbird

I've been hearing about the cutbacks. Yes, I'm sure these agencies will make the switch to NVDA once the money runs out.




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sky Mundell
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 10:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition


Hello Sarah. I have to agree with you. There are cut backs going on in education and in the agencies for the blind, and these agencies will go for NVDA once the money runs dry, trust me they will.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 9:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition


I'm actually up for competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007 when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.


Take care


On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@... <mailto:linomorales001@...> > wrote:


Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.


On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

I'm not sure what language you are writing?

What screen reader are you using voice over?

The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?

When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.

Does that make sense to you?




<mailto:EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...> EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)






_____


From: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io [ <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...


On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?

That way we can choose which version to down load?

personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.

People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.


<mailto:EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...> EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)






_____


From: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io [ <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,

Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.

If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?

I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00


Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.

I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.



<mailto:EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...> EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)






_____


From: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io [ <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io[ <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them. You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does. I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA. I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install. Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: <mailto:gera1027@...> Gerardo Corripio

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete. I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on. It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature. It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project. And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation. Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons. there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run.

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with. the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed. If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: <mailto:lmddh50@...> Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.

Hello Sarah. I have to agree with you. There are cut backs going on in education and in the agencies for the blind, and these agencies will go for NVDA once the money runs dry, trust me they will.

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.