On Oct 22, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

Isn't whether NVDA allows a flag to be used a universal setting that occurs on loading the screen-reader? I'm not sure if it can be implemented in one application.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Luke Robinett
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 2:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader


It’s all about personal preference. I don’t use those navigation links either but some might. The best solution is to create different NVDA configuration profiles and then switch between them as needed, based on particular sites. Currently we can only configure profiles to automatically load based on applications, not websites. It would be cool if this automatic functionality could eventually be extended to websites.

On Oct 22, 2020, at 11:10 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:



Hope,

As the old sayings go, "Different strokes for different folks," and, "Each according to his or her own taste."

That being said, I agree with Mr. Robinett that anyone needs to think long and hard before setting a flag on your screen reader to ignore accessibility-focused features in websites. It often ends up being a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" sort of affair.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn

I had thought that those sorts of things were generally on the page but use black on black contrast so they aren't visible.  But are many of these somehow coded so that screen-readers will read content that isn't on screen at all?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 12:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:25 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
you know when you hear those options at the top of a page to jump to navigation, jump to main content, etc.? Those options don’t appear for sighted users.-
Yup.  Those of us (I'm sighted) who've never touched a screen reader never even know they're there.  These features are the Mr. Cellophane of web coding for the sighted (and for those who don't get the reference, go to YouTube and look up cellophane and Chicago).

There are all sorts of things done to improve accessibility that are intentionally hidden from view because they're useless (and would be darned annoying, actually)  unless you happen to be using a screen reader.

On Oct 21, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

I was asking in case others knew the answers. I searched the relevant settings areas and found nothing, the relevant areas being Document Formatting and Browse Mode Settings. I haven't chedcked Github. Perhaps I should have, I just thought these might be annoyances that might not bother others enough that an issue was filed, but someone may have done so.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 4:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Is the figure setting not being controlable an oversight and are there plans to have the user be able to turn off live region speech?-
Gene, I cannot answer this, other than to say if you don't have a GitHub Account for accessing the NVAccess/NVDA issues system you should consider getting one. This would be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, if there is no clear way to control it documented.

One of the big things lacking, as far as I'm concerned, in NVDA is the ability to search settings for a given word or phrase. Any software as complex as NVDA is going to have a number of settings that it's virtually impossible for any single person to remember in their entirety, or even where they are in the hierarchy. Given how software of this complexity is developed, and grows over time, certain settings may be in what seem to be very odd locations because where they now would seem to be logically placed did not even exist when they came into being. Settings searches have really become a necessity. If you were able to search settings on the word "figure" that should answer your current question, but you can't. But this is not an issue, per se, but a feature request/suggestion if we're talking a general purpose settings search.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn

I use a screen reader, and I still think they're annoying. Maybe that's just me, though. They get in the way.

On 10/22/2020 10:51 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:25 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:

you know when you hear those options at the top of a page to jump to navigation, jump to main content, etc.? Those options don’t appear for sighted users.

-
Yup.  Those of us (I'm sighted) who've never touched a screen reader never even know they're there.  These features are the Mr. Cellophane of web coding for the sighted (and for those who don't get the reference, go to YouTube and look up cellophane and Chicago).

There are all sorts of things done to improve accessibility that are intentionally hidden from view because they're useless (and would be darned annoying, actually)  unless you happen to be using a screen reader.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

On Oct 22, 2020, at 11:10 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Hope,

          As the old sayings go, "Different strokes for different folks," and, "Each according to his or her own taste."

          That being said, I agree with Mr. Robinett that anyone needs to think long and hard before setting a flag on your screen reader to ignore accessibility-focused features in websites.  It often ends up being a "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" sort of affair.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

Those features given at the top of screen for navigation I never used.
My screen reader offers better and those are just in the way for my
style of browsing.
On 10/22/2020 1:25 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:

As a blind person, NVDA user and web developer myself, I don’t
recommend telling the screen reader to ignore the SR flag. It sounds
like there are a few misguided websites out there who are
implementing heavy-handed screen reader experiences on their pages,
but you know when you hear those options at the top of a page to jump
to navigation, jump to main content, etc.? Those options don’t appear
for sighted users. Behind the scenes, we use CSS media queries to
expose those options only when a screen reader is detected, and I
think we all agree those features are generally helpful. A similar
technique is used when a graphical icon is depicted visually but it’s
actual purpose ”menu,” ”settings,” ”submit,” etc. is spoken aloud to
screen reader users. In short, you might find websites become far
less accessible if you tell them to ignore the presence of a screen
reader.

On Oct 21, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps.  I can't think of more than perhaps three or four settings
but having something discussing them might be helpful.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 8:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 06:20 PM, Gene wrote:
I was asking in case others knew the answers.-
I guess my central point, whether it's you asking or someone else,
is that there is likely a small number of settings like this that
will be asked about again and again.  Having a piece of
user-maintained documentation for same can prove really helpful.

I'm not trying to put this in anyone's lap specifically, but tossing
the idea out there.  I am maintaining something analogous in a
completely different sphere, and not software related.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

    ~ Kelley Boorn

As a blind person, NVDA user and web developer myself, I don’t recommend telling the screen reader to ignore the SR flag. It sounds like there are a few misguided websites out there who are implementing heavy-handed screen reader experiences on their pages, but you know when you hear those options at the top of a page to jump to navigation, jump to main content, etc.? Those options don’t appear for sighted users. Behind the scenes, we use CSS media queries to expose those options only when a screen reader is detected, and I think we all agree those features are generally helpful. A similar technique is used when a graphical icon is depicted visually but it’s actual purpose ”menu,” ”settings,” ”submit,” etc. is spoken aloud to screen reader users. In short, you might find websites become far less accessible if you tell them to ignore the presence of a screen reader.

On Oct 21, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps. I can't think of more than perhaps three or four settings but having something discussing them might be helpful.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 8:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 06:20 PM, Gene wrote:
I was asking in case others knew the answers.-
I guess my central point, whether it's you asking or someone else, is that there is likely a small number of settings like this that will be asked about again and again. Having a piece of user-maintained documentation for same can prove really helpful.

I'm not trying to put this in anyone's lap specifically, but tossing the idea out there. I am maintaining something analogous in a completely different sphere, and not software related.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:25 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:

you know when you hear those options at the top of a page to jump to navigation, jump to main content, etc.? Those options don’t appear for sighted users.

-
Yup.  Those of us (I'm sighted) who've never touched a screen reader never even know they're there.  These features are the Mr. Cellophane of web coding for the sighted (and for those who don't get the reference, go to YouTube and look up cellophane and Chicago).

There are all sorts of things done to improve accessibility that are intentionally hidden from view because they're useless (and would be darned annoying, actually)  unless you happen to be using a screen reader.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

On Oct 21, 2020, at 6:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps. I can't think of more than perhaps three or four settings but having something discussing them might be helpful.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 8:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 06:20 PM, Gene wrote:
I was asking in case others knew the answers.-
I guess my central point, whether it's you asking or someone else, is that there is likely a small number of settings like this that will be asked about again and again. Having a piece of user-maintained documentation for same can prove really helpful.

I'm not trying to put this in anyone's lap specifically, but tossing the idea out there. I am maintaining something analogous in a completely different sphere, and not software related.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn

On Oct 21, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

I was asking in case others knew the answers. I searched the relevant settings areas and found nothing, the relevant areas being Document Formatting and Browse Mode Settings. I haven't chedcked Github. Perhaps I should have, I just thought these might be annoyances that might not bother others enough that an issue was filed, but someone may have done so.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 4:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Is the figure setting not being controlable an oversight and are there plans to have the user be able to turn off live region speech?-
Gene, I cannot answer this, other than to say if you don't have a GitHub Account for accessing the NVAccess/NVDA issues system you should consider getting one. This would be an issue, as far as I'm concerned, if there is no clear way to control it documented.

One of the big things lacking, as far as I'm concerned, in NVDA is the ability to search settings for a given word or phrase. Any software as complex as NVDA is going to have a number of settings that it's virtually impossible for any single person to remember in their entirety, or even where they are in the hierarchy. Given how software of this complexity is developed, and grows over time, certain settings may be in what seem to be very odd locations because where they now would seem to be logically placed did not even exist when they came into being. Settings searches have really become a necessity. If you were able to search settings on the word "figure" that should answer your current question, but you can't. But this is not an issue, per se, but a feature request/suggestion if we're talking a general purpose settings search.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn