Searching the NVDA Group Archive


 

Believe it or not, Groups.io has made searching the group archive easier than it once was as far as plowing through search results go, so I have updated the document, Searching the NVDA Group Archive (MS-Word format), the text of which follows.

My problem is that I really cannot know what "table traversal method" any given individual might use and prefer, so I don't get really specific on that aspect.  I have never received any feedback (which I'd appreciate either on this topic or by using the Reply to Sender link at the bottom of this message to reply to me privately) from anyone, so if you use them and find something that you found difficult to follow or have other suggestions for improvement please share them.
------------------------------------------------

Searching the Group Archive

Option 1 – Using the Groups.io Archive Search Page

1.        Navigate to the archive search page:  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/search

2.      Enter your search terms in the Search edit box:  [term1 term2 term3] without the square brackets, as an example.  Remember that if you want a specific phrase, you must enclose the words of that phrase inside quotation marks.  Searching for [bash terminal] will get you topics containing bash, or terminal, or bash terminal, while searching for [“bash terminal”] with the quotes will only get topics with the exact phrase “bash terminal” in them.

3.       Activate the Search button.

4.      Results list will be returned in the form of a web table of messages by default.  If you prefer to have it presented as a web table of topics, which will be significantly shorter to plow through, then:

a.      Activate the Tools button.

b.      Check the Collapse Topics checkbox.  You’re probably done, but for additional options see step 4c, otherwise, go to step 5.

c.       If you so desire there are additional options, a dropdown that allows you to limit the date range for the messages, which defaults to Any Time, a checkbox for Exclude signatures, which will omit signature text from the search, and a Clear button, which will set all of the previously mentioned additional options back to their defaults:  Any time and both checkboxes unchecked.

5.      Use your screen reader’s option for traversing a web table (T in both NVDA and JAWS will throw focus to the table).  Once you have focus on the web table, use your screen reader’s options for navigating a table (for NVDA users, you should consider getting the Easy Table Navigator add-on, which makes table traversal easier using the arrow keys).  Note:  the first column in each row of the table is an empty place holder, it’s what you jump to right afterward that’s the meat of the matter.  Each message (or topic, if you collapsed to topic view) is presented as a link, so if you want to quickly jump from result to result, use your screen reader’s link commands.  Immediately after the link for the message is another column with a brief snippet of the actual message, followed by the link to the member profile of the member who posted the message or started the topic.  Depending on what you’re trying to find the most quickly will determine what table traversal strategy you use.  I personally find either tabbing through the table or using the unvisited link command jumps you through all the search results most rapidly for initial review.  Once you’ve landed on an item of interest, you can look at the additional columns related to that entry more closely.

6.      Activating the link for a specific message (or topic) will open that message (or topic) for reading.  If you’re opening a topic, you’ll have a web table presented again that is a list of all the existing messages in a topic, you’d navigate that via table navigation.  If you’re opening a single message, it’s still presented in web table format, but there’s only one row, so using the table quick navigation shortcut, tabbing into the message, then reading as you wish to is the fastest way to get through a single message.  It requires some practice with the search results to find out what is the best way for you to review them.  There are multiple paths one might take through the search results.

 

Option 2 – Using the web search engine of your choosing

1.        Navigate to the page of the search engine of your choosing, e.g., Google, DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, etc.

2.      In the edit box for your search terms, put in the keywords (or quote enclosed phrases) you’re looking for first.  Immediately follow those with exactly this, site:nvda.groups.io/g/nvda    That tells the search engine to limit itself to searching the site that immediately follows the site: operator (no space after that colon).  Run the search.   If you prefer, you can put the site: operator at the beginning of your search terms rather than at the end.  It’s just got to be in there somewhere.

3.       Use your screen reader’s option for showing a list of headings, as all web search engines I have used return the individual web pages returned as a list of headings.  Review those headings to review what’s been returned.  You can also use the single letter navigation command for headings (typically H) to jump from heading to heading [result to result].

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Sascha Cowley
 

Hi Brian,

Interesting, the results are not displayed in table form for me on groups.io. Any idea why?

On 11/11/2020 11:39, Brian Vogel wrote:
Believe it or not, Groups.io has made searching the group archive easier than it once was as far as plowing through search results go, so I have updated the document, Searching the NVDA Group Archive (MS-Word format), the text of which follows.

My problem is that I really cannot know what "table traversal method" any given individual might use and prefer, so I don't get really specific on that aspect.  I have never received any feedback (which I'd appreciate either on this topic or by using the Reply to Sender link at the bottom of this message to reply to me privately) from anyone, so if you use them and find something that you found difficult to follow or have other suggestions for improvement please share them.
------------------------------------------------

Searching the Group Archive

Option 1 – Using the Groups.io Archive Search Page

1.        Navigate to the archive search page:  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/search

2.      Enter your search terms in the Search edit box:  [term1 term2 term3] without the square brackets, as an example.  Remember that if you want a specific phrase, you must enclose the words of that phrase inside quotation marks.  Searching for [bash terminal] will get you topics containing bash, or terminal, or bash terminal, while searching for [“bash terminal”] with the quotes will only get topics with the exact phrase “bash terminal” in them.

3.       Activate the Search button.

4.      Results list will be returned in the form of a web table of messages by default.  If you prefer to have it presented as a web table of topics, which will be significantly shorter to plow through, then:

a.      Activate the Tools button.

b.      Check the Collapse Topics checkbox.  You’re probably done, but for additional options see step 4c, otherwise, go to step 5.

c.       If you so desire there are additional options, a dropdown that allows you to limit the date range for the messages, which defaults to Any Time, a checkbox for Exclude signatures, which will omit signature text from the search, and a Clear button, which will set all of the previously mentioned additional options back to their defaults:  Any time and both checkboxes unchecked.

5.      Use your screen reader’s option for traversing a web table (T in both NVDA and JAWS will throw focus to the table).  Once you have focus on the web table, use your screen reader’s options for navigating a table (for NVDA users, you should consider getting the Easy Table Navigator add-on, which makes table traversal easier using the arrow keys).  Note:  the first column in each row of the table is an empty place holder, it’s what you jump to right afterward that’s the meat of the matter.  Each message (or topic, if you collapsed to topic view) is presented as a link, so if you want to quickly jump from result to result, use your screen reader’s link commands.  Immediately after the link for the message is another column with a brief snippet of the actual message, followed by the link to the member profile of the member who posted the message or started the topic.  Depending on what you’re trying to find the most quickly will determine what table traversal strategy you use.  I personally find either tabbing through the table or using the unvisited link command jumps you through all the search results most rapidly for initial review.  Once you’ve landed on an item of interest, you can look at the additional columns related to that entry more closely.

6.      Activating the link for a specific message (or topic) will open that message (or topic) for reading.  If you’re opening a topic, you’ll have a web table presented again that is a list of all the existing messages in a topic, you’d navigate that via table navigation.  If you’re opening a single message, it’s still presented in web table format, but there’s only one row, so using the table quick navigation shortcut, tabbing into the message, then reading as you wish to is the fastest way to get through a single message.  It requires some practice with the search results to find out what is the best way for you to review them.  There are multiple paths one might take through the search results.

 

Option 2 – Using the web search engine of your choosing

1.        Navigate to the page of the search engine of your choosing, e.g., Google, DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, etc.

2.      In the edit box for your search terms, put in the keywords (or quote enclosed phrases) you’re looking for first.  Immediately follow those with exactly this, site:nvda.groups.io/g/nvda    That tells the search engine to limit itself to searching the site that immediately follows the site: operator (no space after that colon).  Run the search.   If you prefer, you can put the site: operator at the beginning of your search terms rather than at the end.  It’s just got to be in there somewhere.

3.       Use your screen reader’s option for showing a list of headings, as all web search engines I have used return the individual web pages returned as a list of headings.  Review those headings to review what’s been returned.  You can also use the single letter navigation command for headings (typically H) to jump from heading to heading [result to result].

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Gene
 

When I do a search on Groups.io and I am in the table, there is only one column with text in it. I' think column is the correct term. There are one or two blank columns on either side. If I move to the column in table mode and move down, each time I move down, all the information is read, the subject of the message, the excerpt of the message, and who wrote it. I don't know how the table lookks, but I see little reason to use it. Others may prefer moving in table mode, but I much prefer tabbing to the subject line of a message, and starting to read the exerpt by down arrowing once. If I want to hear more of the excerpt, I may just continue in that way or I may use read to end, but I think it is better in this case, to down arrow. I keep one hand on tab and the other on down arrow.
If I want to skip to the next message, I tab once to the author's name, which is a link, then once more to the next subject. I can move efficiently by listening to the subject of a message, down arrowing if I want to hear the excerpt or part of it, tabbing to the name if I don't want to hear more than part of the excerpt, then tabbing again to the next title. If I hear a little of the excerpt and I don't care about who wrote it, I can quickly press tab twice to get to the next subject line.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Searching the NVDA Group Archive

Believe it or not, Groups.io has made searching the group archive easier than it once was as far as plowing through search results go, so I have updated the document, Searching the NVDA Group Archive (MS-Word format), the text of which follows.

My problem is that I really cannot know what "table traversal method" any given individual might use and prefer, so I don't get really specific on that aspect. I have never received any feedback (which I'd appreciate either on this topic or by using the Reply to Sender link at the bottom of this message to reply to me privately) from anyone, so if you use them and find something that you found difficult to follow or have other suggestions for improvement please share them.
------------------------------------------------


Searching the Group Archive

Option 1 – Using the Groups.io Archive Search Page

1. <!--[endif]-->Navigate to the archive search page: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/search

2. <!--[endif]-->Enter your search terms in the Search edit box: [term1 term2 term3] without the square brackets, as an example. Remember that if you want a specific phrase, you must enclose the words of that phrase inside quotation marks. Searching for [bash terminal] will get you topics containing bash, or terminal, or bash terminal, while searching for [“bash terminal”] with the quotes will only get topics with the exact phrase “bash terminal” in them.

3. <!--[endif]-->Activate the Search button.

4. <!--[endif]-->Results list will be returned in the form of a web table of messages by default. If you prefer to have it presented as a web table of topics, which will be significantly shorter to plow through, then:

a. <!--[endif]-->Activate the Tools button.

b. <!--[endif]-->Check the Collapse Topics checkbox. You’re probably done, but for additional options see step 4c, otherwise, go to step 5.

c. <!--[endif]-->If you so desire there are additional options, a dropdown that allows you to limit the date range for the messages, which defaults to Any Time, a checkbox for Exclude signatures, which will omit signature text from the search, and a Clear button, which will set all of the previously mentioned additional options back to their defaults: Any time and both checkboxes unchecked.

5. <!--[endif]-->Use your screen reader’s option for traversing a web table (T in both NVDA and JAWS will throw focus to the table). Once you have focus on the web table, use your screen reader’s options for navigating a table (for NVDA users, you should consider getting the Easy Table Navigator add-on, which makes table traversal easier using the arrow keys). Note: the first column in each row of the table is an empty place holder, it’s what you jump to right afterward that’s the meat of the matter. Each message (or topic, if you collapsed to topic view) is presented as a link, so if you want to quickly jump from result to result, use your screen reader’s link commands. Immediately after the link for the message is another column with a brief snippet of the actual message, followed by the link to the member profile of the member who posted the message or started the topic. Depending on what you’re trying to find the most quickly will determine what table traversal strategy you use. I personally find either tabbing through the table or using the unvisited link command jumps you through all the search results most rapidly for initial review. Once you’ve landed on an item of interest, you can look at the additional columns related to that entry more closely.

6. <!--[endif]-->Activating the link for a specific message (or topic) will open that message (or topic) for reading. If you’re opening a topic, you’ll have a web table presented again that is a list of all the existing messages in a topic, you’d navigate that via table navigation. If you’re opening a single message, it’s still presented in web table format, but there’s only one row, so using the table quick navigation shortcut, tabbing into the message, then reading as you wish to is the fastest way to get through a single message. It requires some practice with the search results to find out what is the best way for you to review them. There are multiple paths one might take through the search results.



Option 2 – Using the web search engine of your choosing

1. <!--[endif]-->Navigate to the page of the search engine of your choosing, e.g., Google, DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, etc.

2. <!--[endif]-->In the edit box for your search terms, put in the keywords (or quote enclosed phrases) you’re looking for first. Immediately follow those with exactly this, site:nvda.groups.io/g/nvda That tells the search engine to limit itself to searching the site that immediately follows the site: operator (no space after that colon). Run the search. If you prefer, you can put the site: operator at the beginning of your search terms rather than at the end. It’s just got to be in there somewhere.

3. <!--[endif]-->Use your screen reader’s option for showing a list of headings, as all web search engines I have used return the individual web pages returned as a list of headings. Review those headings to review what’s been returned. You can also use the single letter navigation command for headings (typically H) to jump from heading to heading [result to result].

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

~ Thomas Reed Powell


Gene
 

Also, in searching using a search engine, why use /g/nvda and not just site:nvda.groups.io followed by the search?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 6:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Searching the NVDA Group Archive

Believe it or not, Groups.io has made searching the group archive easier than it once was as far as plowing through search results go, so I have updated the document, Searching the NVDA Group Archive (MS-Word format), the text of which follows.

My problem is that I really cannot know what "table traversal method" any given individual might use and prefer, so I don't get really specific on that aspect. I have never received any feedback (which I'd appreciate either on this topic or by using the Reply to Sender link at the bottom of this message to reply to me privately) from anyone, so if you use them and find something that you found difficult to follow or have other suggestions for improvement please share them.
------------------------------------------------


Searching the Group Archive

Option 1 – Using the Groups.io Archive Search Page

1. <!--[endif]-->Navigate to the archive search page: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/search

2. <!--[endif]-->Enter your search terms in the Search edit box: [term1 term2 term3] without the square brackets, as an example. Remember that if you want a specific phrase, you must enclose the words of that phrase inside quotation marks. Searching for [bash terminal] will get you topics containing bash, or terminal, or bash terminal, while searching for [“bash terminal”] with the quotes will only get topics with the exact phrase “bash terminal” in them.

3. <!--[endif]-->Activate the Search button.

4. <!--[endif]-->Results list will be returned in the form of a web table of messages by default. If you prefer to have it presented as a web table of topics, which will be significantly shorter to plow through, then:

a. <!--[endif]-->Activate the Tools button.

b. <!--[endif]-->Check the Collapse Topics checkbox. You’re probably done, but for additional options see step 4c, otherwise, go to step 5.

c. <!--[endif]-->If you so desire there are additional options, a dropdown that allows you to limit the date range for the messages, which defaults to Any Time, a checkbox for Exclude signatures, which will omit signature text from the search, and a Clear button, which will set all of the previously mentioned additional options back to their defaults: Any time and both checkboxes unchecked.

5. <!--[endif]-->Use your screen reader’s option for traversing a web table (T in both NVDA and JAWS will throw focus to the table). Once you have focus on the web table, use your screen reader’s options for navigating a table (for NVDA users, you should consider getting the Easy Table Navigator add-on, which makes table traversal easier using the arrow keys). Note: the first column in each row of the table is an empty place holder, it’s what you jump to right afterward that’s the meat of the matter. Each message (or topic, if you collapsed to topic view) is presented as a link, so if you want to quickly jump from result to result, use your screen reader’s link commands. Immediately after the link for the message is another column with a brief snippet of the actual message, followed by the link to the member profile of the member who posted the message or started the topic. Depending on what you’re trying to find the most quickly will determine what table traversal strategy you use. I personally find either tabbing through the table or using the unvisited link command jumps you through all the search results most rapidly for initial review. Once you’ve landed on an item of interest, you can look at the additional columns related to that entry more closely.

6. <!--[endif]-->Activating the link for a specific message (or topic) will open that message (or topic) for reading. If you’re opening a topic, you’ll have a web table presented again that is a list of all the existing messages in a topic, you’d navigate that via table navigation. If you’re opening a single message, it’s still presented in web table format, but there’s only one row, so using the table quick navigation shortcut, tabbing into the message, then reading as you wish to is the fastest way to get through a single message. It requires some practice with the search results to find out what is the best way for you to review them. There are multiple paths one might take through the search results.



Option 2 – Using the web search engine of your choosing

1. <!--[endif]-->Navigate to the page of the search engine of your choosing, e.g., Google, DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, etc.

2. <!--[endif]-->In the edit box for your search terms, put in the keywords (or quote enclosed phrases) you’re looking for first. Immediately follow those with exactly this, site:nvda.groups.io/g/nvda That tells the search engine to limit itself to searching the site that immediately follows the site: operator (no space after that colon). Run the search. If you prefer, you can put the site: operator at the beginning of your search terms rather than at the end. It’s just got to be in there somewhere.

3. <!--[endif]-->Use your screen reader’s option for showing a list of headings, as all web search engines I have used return the individual web pages returned as a list of headings. Review those headings to review what’s been returned. You can also use the single letter navigation command for headings (typically H) to jump from heading to heading [result to result].

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

~ Thomas Reed Powell


 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 07:48 PM, Sascha Cowley wrote:
Interesting, the results are not displayed in table form for me on groups.io. Any idea why?
-
Absolutely none.  I have no idea why a search results page, be it from Grousp.io or a web search engine, would not use the same page format for every single person who's looking at said page.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 08:32 PM, Gene wrote:
not just site:nvda.groups.io followed by the search?
-
Gene,

Purely an accident of Groups.io history and what worked when I first was trying to work through this, and what you propose did not.

Now they are equivalent, at least in my brief testing, and I agree that "briefer is better."  I seem to recall when I first tried doing this that I was getting several search results that were "from the group's site" but not actually a part of the archive of messages.  But that doesn't seem to be happening now.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 08:22 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know how the table lookks, but I see little reason to use it.
-
It's not about looks, as no matter what method of navigation you're using the web table is part of the page structure, but about "keeping traversal orderly" for those unfamiliar with the page, which table traversal does.

But, as the instructions note, and you're giving a perfect example of this in action:  "It requires some practice with the search results to find out what is the best way for you to review them.  There are multiple paths one might take through the search results."  Different strokes for different folks.  Whatever works for you is just fine.

It's hard to know where the appropriate line is between prescriptive and descriptive in this sort of tutorial.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Sascha Cowley
 

Turns out this is because I have "Include layout tables" disabled in NVDA's browse mode settings. I believe this is the way NVDA is configured by default, so I would suggest adding a note to your tutorial instructions. I'm using Firefox, in case the browser makes a difference.

On 11/11/2020 12:58, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 07:48 PM, Sascha Cowley wrote:
Interesting, the results are not displayed in table form for me on groups.io. Any idea why?
-
Absolutely none.  I have no idea why a search results page, be it from Grousp.io or a web search engine, would not use the same page format for every single person who's looking at said page.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 09:37 PM, Sascha Cowley wrote:
I believe this is the way NVDA is configured by default,
-
I know I have not changed any settings, ever, in reference to tables.  It is off in mine as well, and I stepped through everything using NVDA to create the instructions.

I don't know what's going on on your end, but it's not happening here in several Chromium-based browsers, so it could be a Firefox-related issue.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


 

Sascha,

          Just did a test with Firefox and it is a "Firefox thing."  I get no table using Firefox, too, but I don't know why this is, because a quick look at the page source sure shows a web/HTML table being employed.

           There's a bug somewhere, but whether it's Firefox or NVDA I don't know, or else all of the Chromium-based browsers share a bug or NVDA with them in regard to what's going on.

           I don't know for absolute certain which browser is having things "presented correctly" by NVDA.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Sascha Cowley
 

I think it's a chromium thing. Visually, there is no table there (as far as I can see). There is a table in the code, but what the purpose of it is, I don't know; the first column seems to be empty. I believe, therefore, that NVDA treating it as a layout table, and thus ignoring it, in Firefox, is the correct behaviour.

On 11/11/2020 13:50, Brian Vogel wrote:
Sascha,

          Just did a test with Firefox and it is a "Firefox thing."  I get no table using Firefox, too, but I don't know why this is, because a quick look at the page source sure shows a web/HTML table being employed.

           There's a bug somewhere, but whether it's Firefox or NVDA I don't know, or else all of the Chromium-based browsers share a bug or NVDA with them in regard to what's going on.

           I don't know for absolute certain which browser is having things "presented correctly" by NVDA.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


 

Sacha,

            I have created an NVDA bug report:  https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/11831 

            Regardless of where the fault lies, behavior on the same page should not differ, particularly with regard to page structure, based on browser in use.  If you care to comment on it to give any further details regarding your Firefox experience please do so.

             Somebody's got to fix something, it's just a question of who, and the NVAccess folks can figure out where the fault lies and reach out and/or fix NVDA accordingly.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell