1. nvda@nvda.groups.io
Topics

Use of Headings, or Rather Lack Thereof, in Groups.IO Discussion Lists

Arlene
 

Oh wow! I did try it with my old windows 7 box.  It never worked right for me. I guess my old computer was not meant for it. For some strange reason I couldn’t install it even if I was trying the free version.  I never tried it again. I had errors and more errors when trying to install it.  What a shock.  Is that the screen reader that updates itself when new versions come out? Or am I lying?

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Blaster
Sent: November 16, 2020 11:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Use of Headings, or Rather Lack Thereof, in Groups.IO Discussion Lists

 

Brian,

 

Since NVDA was most likely influenced in some way by System Access I

thought I'd post this to highlight my sadness for the loss of SA.

 

This was taken from a blog in 2010:

 

"Let's refresh our memories on what we have already done:

1. Serotek was the first to offer a full-featured accessibility

solution that does not require  administrator rights to provide speech

and braille access.

2. Serotek was the first to provide non-proprietary remote access

speech solutions for personal and  commercial environments that even

work with our competition.

3. Serotek was the first to provide full-featured access to 64-bit Windows.

4. Serotek was the first to provide direct support for Braille devices

that comply with the Human  Interface Device standard, allowing a user

to walk up to any Windows computer and have speech and  Braille access

without installing any drivers.

5. Serotek was the first (and is still the only,) completely web based

access solution to speech  and braille with satogo."

 

Take care,

Blaster

 

 

 

 

On 11/16/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 09:08 AM, Blaster wrote:

> 

>> 

>> System Access going off the market is a very sad turn of events, indeed.

> 

> -

> Sad, perhaps, but there is only so much room in niche markets in

> particular.  This is a screen reader I'd never even heard of until this

> particular topic came up.

> 

> And I expect as Narrator continues to mature that other very small players

> will be exiting the stage, if any are left.

> 

> --

> 

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

> 

> *If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to

> something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you

> have a legal mind.*

> 

> ~ Thomas Reed Powell

> 

> 

>

> 

> 

> 

 

 

 

 

 
Blaster
 

Brian,

Since NVDA was most likely influenced in some way by System Access I
thought I'd post this to highlight my sadness for the loss of SA.

This was taken from a blog in 2010:

"Let's refresh our memories on what we have already done:
1. Serotek was the first to offer a full-featured accessibility
solution that does not require administrator rights to provide speech
and braille access.
2. Serotek was the first to provide non-proprietary remote access
speech solutions for personal and commercial environments that even
work with our competition.
3. Serotek was the first to provide full-featured access to 64-bit Windows.
4. Serotek was the first to provide direct support for Braille devices
that comply with the Human Interface Device standard, allowing a user
to walk up to any Windows computer and have speech and Braille access
without installing any drivers.
5. Serotek was the first (and is still the only,) completely web based
access solution to speech and braille with satogo."

Take care,
Blaster

On 11/16/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 09:08 AM, Blaster wrote:


System Access going off the market is a very sad turn of events, indeed.
-
Sad, perhaps, but there is only so much room in niche markets in
particular. This is a screen reader I'd never even heard of until this
particular topic came up.

And I expect as Narrator continues to mature that other very small players
will be exiting the stage, if any are left.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

*If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to
something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you
have a legal mind.*

~ Thomas Reed Powell
Brian Vogel
 

On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 09:09 PM, Alex Kenny wrote:
You can jump to the next and previous messages using the S and Shift+S quick navigation keys. I do agree that headings would be ideal, however.
-
Thanks for that, as I can now update a couple of tutorials.  NVDA "sees" a layout table on these pages and you can use table navigation commands if you're in a Chromium-based browser, but not under Firefox.  The use of S and SHIFT+S is an excellent solution.

I was surprised when headings weren't used, but as long as a standard, easily navigable structure is, it'll work.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 
Brian Vogel
 

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 09:08 AM, Blaster wrote:
System Access going off the market is a very sad turn of events, indeed.
-
Sad, perhaps, but there is only so much room in niche markets in particular.  This is a screen reader I'd never even heard of until this particular topic came up.

And I expect as Narrator continues to mature that other very small players will be exiting the stage, if any are left.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 
Blaster
 

Gene, Mike Calvo has stated he will no longer be selling or
maintaining the screen reader, System Access. The System Access
technology will still be available within the self voicing DocuScan
software and potentially some other new products, more info is coming
soon, however he has officially declared System Access dead as of the
end of this year. The SA to Go website is on the chopping block as
well as Mr. Calvo is rolling out a new set of programs that will also
remodel the Sero online family of services.

Here's a look at one of his newest projects,

https://pneumasolutions.com/

System Access going off the market is a very sad turn of events, indeed.

Blaster
Gene
 

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the System access to go web site will be taken down? I don't know how much it costs, but you could buy System Access if you want it.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Blaster
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2020 7:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Use of Headings, or Rather Lack Thereof, in Groups.IO Discussion Lists

The screen reader "System Access" is coming to an end on December 31st
of this year, Ironically, It navigates message to message using the
search by header command flawlessly, I will miss this screen reader.
Since this is possible, perhaps a NVDA kung fu code master could
create an addon?

Hinty, hint, hint hint…


Blaster


On 11/15/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Have you looked for text that repeats at the end of each message before a
new one begins? There may be something you can search for that is reliable.

I haven't used the archives much but that is often what I look for in such
situations.

I don't have much opinions about headings, I'd have to look at the page
layout to see if something looks useful enough to be a possibly desirable
way to move.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: David Kingsbury
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2020 3:57 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Use of Headings, or Rather Lack Thereof, in Groups.IO
Discussion Lists



Hi all,



I have come to really value the various Groups.IO lists related to
accessibility, including this one. However, one thing that has always irked

me is how clunky and inefficient navigation is on the web pages where you
access discussion strings on individual topics. Other than a single level 4

heading just above the initial question, there is no use of headings for
replies. Appropriate use of headings here would significantly enable more
efficient navigation by screen reader users.



Previously, I had a few workarounds on web pages for reading through
discussions. If using Edge, I could put it in immersive reader view and that

helped. But with the newest version of Windows 10, immersive reader seems to

have disappeared for some pages and remained for others. I even figured out

that I could search for the number sign with Control F and then F3 to get to

the top of each response because each one used to start with a message
number, but no longer. So now, I am stuck endlessly down arrowing through
the discussions. This is a very inefficient way to navigate web pages.



I emailed the Groups. IO tech support people with this concern several
months ago and they never responded. Because I had figured out some personal

workarounds, and this is a free service, so I suppose you get what you pay
for, I never made a second attempt to contact them. But my workarounds no
longer work, and navigation is very tedious.



I am sure that those who run Groups.IO are people of goodwill. I imagine too

that they are unaware that well-placed insertion of headings greatly
facilitates navigation by screen reader users.



So, a couple of questions. Should list administrators contact the Groups.IO

developers with this concern to ask that they make better use of headings on

the web pages? Or if others on this list agree that better use of headings
would greatly improve our ability to use Groups.IO more efficiently, is
there a way we can advocate as a group, versus sending the occasional
solitary email complaint that ultimately goes unanswered?



Ideally, on the web pages, each original question and the responses would be

tagged with a heading. On the daily digest, “New topics” and “new replies”
would both have headings. However, adding headings to the web pages is the
biggest priority.



I want to emphasize that I wouldn’t expend time on this if I didn’t value
the service. It is an excellent resource. But that doesn’t mean there is no

room for improvement.



Thanks to all who support asking that they do something about this. Also,
sorry in advance for any inconvenience to you because I am sending this
message to several lists, so you may see some repetition.



Regards,

David
Alex Kenny
 

When viewing a specific topic, each message is preceded by an HTML separator. You can jump to the next and previous messages using the S and Shift+S quick navigation keys. I do agree that headings would be ideal, however.
Blaster
 

The screen reader "System Access" is coming to an end on December 31st
of this year, Ironically, It navigates message to message using the
search by header command flawlessly, I will miss this screen reader.
Since this is possible, perhaps a NVDA kung fu code master could
create an addon?

Hinty, hint, hint hint…


Blaster

On 11/15/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Have you looked for text that repeats at the end of each message before a
new one begins? There may be something you can search for that is reliable.

I haven't used the archives much but that is often what I look for in such
situations.

I don't have much opinions about headings, I'd have to look at the page
layout to see if something looks useful enough to be a possibly desirable
way to move.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: David Kingsbury
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2020 3:57 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Use of Headings, or Rather Lack Thereof, in Groups.IO
Discussion Lists



Hi all,



I have come to really value the various Groups.IO lists related to
accessibility, including this one. However, one thing that has always irked

me is how clunky and inefficient navigation is on the web pages where you
access discussion strings on individual topics. Other than a single level 4

heading just above the initial question, there is no use of headings for
replies. Appropriate use of headings here would significantly enable more
efficient navigation by screen reader users.



Previously, I had a few workarounds on web pages for reading through
discussions. If using Edge, I could put it in immersive reader view and that

helped. But with the newest version of Windows 10, immersive reader seems to

have disappeared for some pages and remained for others. I even figured out

that I could search for the number sign with Control F and then F3 to get to

the top of each response because each one used to start with a message
number, but no longer. So now, I am stuck endlessly down arrowing through
the discussions. This is a very inefficient way to navigate web pages.



I emailed the Groups. IO tech support people with this concern several
months ago and they never responded. Because I had figured out some personal

workarounds, and this is a free service, so I suppose you get what you pay
for, I never made a second attempt to contact them. But my workarounds no
longer work, and navigation is very tedious.



I am sure that those who run Groups.IO are people of goodwill. I imagine too

that they are unaware that well-placed insertion of headings greatly
facilitates navigation by screen reader users.



So, a couple of questions. Should list administrators contact the Groups.IO

developers with this concern to ask that they make better use of headings on

the web pages? Or if others on this list agree that better use of headings
would greatly improve our ability to use Groups.IO more efficiently, is
there a way we can advocate as a group, versus sending the occasional
solitary email complaint that ultimately goes unanswered?



Ideally, on the web pages, each original question and the responses would be

tagged with a heading. On the daily digest, “New topics” and “new replies”
would both have headings. However, adding headings to the web pages is the
biggest priority.



I want to emphasize that I wouldn’t expend time on this if I didn’t value
the service. It is an excellent resource. But that doesn’t mean there is no

room for improvement.



Thanks to all who support asking that they do something about this. Also,
sorry in advance for any inconvenience to you because I am sending this
message to several lists, so you may see some repetition.



Regards,

David
Gene
 

Have you looked for text that repeats at the end of each message before a new one begins? There may be something you can search for that is reliable. I haven't used the archives much but that is often what I look for in such situations.

I don't have much opinions about headings, I'd have to look at the page layout to see if something looks useful enough to be a possibly desirable way to move.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: David Kingsbury
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2020 3:57 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Use of Headings, or Rather Lack Thereof, in Groups.IO Discussion Lists



Hi all,



I have come to really value the various Groups.IO lists related to accessibility, including this one. However, one thing that has always irked me is how clunky and inefficient navigation is on the web pages where you access discussion strings on individual topics. Other than a single level 4 heading just above the initial question, there is no use of headings for replies. Appropriate use of headings here would significantly enable more efficient navigation by screen reader users.



Previously, I had a few workarounds on web pages for reading through discussions. If using Edge, I could put it in immersive reader view and that helped. But with the newest version of Windows 10, immersive reader seems to have disappeared for some pages and remained for others. I even figured out that I could search for the number sign with Control F and then F3 to get to the top of each response because each one used to start with a message number, but no longer. So now, I am stuck endlessly down arrowing through the discussions. This is a very inefficient way to navigate web pages.



I emailed the Groups. IO tech support people with this concern several months ago and they never responded. Because I had figured out some personal workarounds, and this is a free service, so I suppose you get what you pay for, I never made a second attempt to contact them. But my workarounds no longer work, and navigation is very tedious.



I am sure that those who run Groups.IO are people of goodwill. I imagine too that they are unaware that well-placed insertion of headings greatly facilitates navigation by screen reader users.



So, a couple of questions. Should list administrators contact the Groups.IO developers with this concern to ask that they make better use of headings on the web pages? Or if others on this list agree that better use of headings would greatly improve our ability to use Groups.IO more efficiently, is there a way we can advocate as a group, versus sending the occasional solitary email complaint that ultimately goes unanswered?



Ideally, on the web pages, each original question and the responses would be tagged with a heading. On the daily digest, “New topics” and “new replies” would both have headings. However, adding headings to the web pages is the biggest priority.



I want to emphasize that I wouldn’t expend time on this if I didn’t value the service. It is an excellent resource. But that doesn’t mean there is no room for improvement.



Thanks to all who support asking that they do something about this. Also, sorry in advance for any inconvenience to you because I am sending this message to several lists, so you may see some repetition.



Regards,

David
Brian Vogel
 

I have already replied here in a topic of the same title, on the JAWS group, but the same applies to the readers here, but with the tutorial, Searching the NVDA Group Archive.

So here's a copy and paste with the correct tutorial substituted for this group:
----------------------

           I have just updated my tutorial, Searching the NVDA Group Archive, most of which is applicable to browsing and reading the regular Topics page for any given Groups.io group as well.

           I don't know why the table format that Groups.io has started to use is not working correctly with NVDA (and possibly JAWS) under Firefox, but it is working consistently under any Chromium-based browser I've used.  See if that helps out at all.

           As far as Groups.io "higher ups," though the service is seemingly huge, the development team is anything but.  Contacting them with your concerns via support@groups.io is the one and only mechanism I know of.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 
David Kingsbury
 

Hi all,

 

I have come to really value the various Groups.IO lists related to accessibility, including this one. However, one thing that has always irked me is how clunky and inefficient navigation is on the web pages where you access discussion strings on individual topics. Other than a single level 4 heading just above the initial question, there is no use of headings for replies. Appropriate use of headings here would significantly enable more efficient navigation by screen reader users.

 

Previously, I had a few workarounds on web pages for reading through discussions. If using Edge, I could put it in immersive reader view and that helped. But with the newest version of Windows 10, immersive reader seems to have disappeared for some pages and remained for others. I even figured out that I could search for the number sign with Control F and then F3 to get to the top of each response because each one used to start with a message number, but no longer. So now, I am stuck endlessly down arrowing through the discussions. This is a very inefficient way to navigate web pages.

 

I emailed the Groups. IO tech support people with this concern several months ago and they never responded. Because I had figured out some personal workarounds, and this is a free service, so I suppose you get what you pay for, I never made a second attempt to contact them. But my workarounds no longer work, and navigation is very tedious.

 

I am sure that those who run Groups.IO are people of goodwill. I imagine too that they are unaware that well-placed insertion of headings greatly facilitates navigation by screen reader users.

 

So, a couple of questions. Should list administrators contact the Groups.IO developers with this concern to ask that they make better use of headings on the web pages? Or if others on this list agree that better use of headings would greatly improve our ability to use Groups.IO more efficiently, is there a way we can advocate as a group, versus sending the occasional solitary email complaint that ultimately goes unanswered?

 

Ideally, on the web pages, each original question and the responses would be tagged with a heading. On the daily digest, “New topics” and “new replies” would both have headings. However, adding headings to the web pages is the biggest priority.

 

I want to emphasize that I wouldn’t expend time on this if I didn’t value the service. It is an excellent resource. But that doesn’t mean there is no room for improvement.

 

Thanks to all who support asking that they do something about this. Also, sorry in advance for any inconvenience to you because I am sending this message to several lists, so you may see some repetition.

 

Regards,

David
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