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1 - 20 of 29
add-on for accessing the system tray
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Bob Cavanaugh
Hi everyone,
I remember hearing from another user that I need an add-on to access the system tray by pressing NVDA+F11. Can someone please send me the link to that add-on? This is something else that I think should be built into NVDA. Thanks, Bob |
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Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
Its a nice add-on, but not needed. WIN key B regardless of whatever screen reader you use is great.
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On 12/8/2020 6:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Hi everyone, |
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Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías
Hi all, this is the addon> systrayList (nvda-project.org) Regards.
Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías. Soporte a usuarios, comunidad hispanohablante de NVDA. Web www.nvda.es
De: Bob Cavanaugh
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Angel
There is a windows combination set of keys to access the system trey. It is the windows key, plus b.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 6:22 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray
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On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 06:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
This is something else that I think should be built into NVDA.- Why? The system tray is entirely accessible using the built-in Windows keyboard shortcuts and then navigating it with any screen reader. Creating additional shortcuts, particularly within a screen reader, for things that already exist makes no sense, and makes it more difficult when new functions have to be added to any screen reader since the number of keyboard shortcuts, or at least 2-key-press and 3-key-press ones, is getting tight. As Lino Morales said, WinKey+B throws focus to the first item in the system tray, generally the notification chevron for the "overflow area" where seldom-but-not-never needed icons are kept, then right arrowing goes item by item through whatever you have set to show in the system tray until you hit the action center (or maybe even the desktop peek button). -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Gene
Do a Google search for NVDA system tray add-on. You will find the page in the first results.
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Gene If you have problems, let us know. -----Original Message-----
Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Cavanaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 5:21 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray Hi everyone, I remember hearing from another user that I need an add-on to access the system tray by pressing NVDA+F11. Can someone please send me the link to that add-on? This is something else that I think should be built into NVDA. Thanks, Bob |
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On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 06:34 PM, Gene wrote:
Do a Google search for NVDA system tray add-on.- Or make a point of bookmarking the NVDA Community Add-Ons Website. Right now, since that page is sorted by most recent update date, the systrayList add-on is at the bottom of the page. While there's occasional discussion of an unofficial add-on, most of them, including systrayList, that come up repeatedly can be found on that page. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Gene
It is needed on rare occasions. At times, you can't access something properly using the system tray itself and you can with the add-on. At times, the reverse is true.
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And whether it is needed isn't really to the point. It has been the custom for screen-readers to provide a system tray dialog since Windows 98. At that time, that was the only way the system tray was accessible. It is so standardized in screen-readers that it should be a part of NVDA, particularly since a lot of users will never know about the add-on. Who knows how many users never learn about this list or other places where they would be encouraged to explore add-ons. At times, you just do something because it makes sense under existing conditions. NVDA developers believe that NVDA should do almost nothing outside of be a pure screen-reader. If taken too far, that is ideology and, as with all ideologies that are followed too dogmatically, results in bad decisions. Gene -----Original Message-----
From: Lino Morales Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 5:24 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray Its a nice add-on, but not needed. WIN key B regardless of whatever screen reader you use is great. On 12/8/2020 6:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote: Hi everyone, |
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On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 06:41 PM, Gene wrote:
It is so standardized in screen-readers that it should be a part of NVDA, particularly since a lot of users will never know about the add-on.- Gene, what is "standardized" during times of need can be, and often is, removed once the period of actual need has passed. A lot of users will never know about the vast majority of what their chosen screen reader supports or doesn't support. The argument from that perspective is a non-starter. It's easy enough to research via web search, which you pointed out earlier. And it should be expected in 2020 that each and every participant in a venue such as this is versed in doing basic web searches. If you cannot, then you need to be learning how, period. One does not focus on the least skilled as the common denominator, but the far more general case and skill set. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Gene
There are a lot of NVDA users who will never know aboutor be a ;part of this or other groups. There are also those who get training or learn to use NVDA in all sorts of different ways. There are some things that are simply so much conventions that they should be incorporated. In Chicago, where I live, professional radio announcers mispronounce the street Goethe for the same reason I am discussing, it is so widespread that the mispronounciation is considered correct for that purpose.
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Also, unless the manual has changed, when I checked last, a year or two ago, no instruction was given for using the system tray. In other words, how to execute double left click, single left click and right click is not discussed. You don't not include something that is a convention going back for two decades and not explain how to use the alternative. And also, as I said, there are rare times when one method works and the other doesn't, so it can't be claimed that the dialog is never needed and that the direct use of the System tray completely duplicates the functionality of the dialog. Gene -----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 6:02 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 06:41 PM, Gene wrote: It is so standardized in screen-readers that it should be a part of NVDA, particularly since a lot of users will never know about the add-on.- Gene, what is "standardized" during times of need can be, and often is, removed once the period of actual need has passed. A lot of users will never know about the vast majority of what their chosen screen reader supports or doesn't support. The argument from that perspective is a non-starter. It's easy enough to research via web search, which you pointed out earlier. And it should be expected in 2020 that each and every participant in a venue such as this is versed in doing basic web searches. If you cannot, then you need to be learning how, period. One does not focus on the least skilled as the common denominator, but the far more general case and skill set. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell |
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On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 07:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Also, unless the manual has changed, when I checked last, a year or two ago, no instruction was given for using the system tray.- Believe it or not, Gene, I don't expect the folks at NVAccess to explain how to use a feature of Windows that has been present literally for decades. What you expect in documentation, and what I do, are two entirely different things. NVDA documentation should not be teaching Windows basics. It is entirely reasonabl to presume that a Windows user already knows about the System Tray and how it works. They should also be presumed to know how SHIFT+F10 or the Applications/Context Menu key work. These are not screen reader concepts. But with this, I'm done, because this is so meta that it has only the most tenuous connection to NVDA. The same things I said above would be applicable to documentation for Narrator, JAWS, and a number of now defunct screen readers. Users should know what's controlling what, and if they need the training to get that information, or need help from their friends, classmates, colleagues, etc., to get it then they need to pursue those avenues. It's not up to screen reader makers to teach basic Windows concepts in their documentation, except in passing as something screen reader specific is involved. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Bob Cavanaugh
I am with Gene on this, at least partially. I consider myself pretty
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tech savvy, but for some reason I didn't know about the Windows command to access the system tray until it was pointed out on the list just now. I will definitely take a look at the add-on website to see if I can benefit from any other add-ons. I've used NVDA as a secondary screen reader for about 10 years, and interestingly have only had one add-on running at a time. On 12/8/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 07:11 PM, Gene wrote:- |
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Hi, mostly for Quentin,
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I know I'm saying this in a public venue like this, but I would like to suggest working with people on making native Windows keyboard shortcuts more discoverable in various documentations and statements. By the way, for people wondering about the status of SystrayList add-on: I maintained it last (until earlier this year). I personally think it would be better to move onto more modern approaches to reviewing notification area (Windows+B) rather than relying on the add-on alone. Cheers, Joseph -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 4:56 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray I am with Gene on this, at least partially. I consider myself pretty tech savvy, but for some reason I didn't know about the Windows command to access the system tray until it was pointed out on the list just now. I will definitely take a look at the add-on website to see if I can benefit from any other add-ons. I've used NVDA as a secondary screen reader for about 10 years, and interestingly have only had one add-on running at a time. On 12/8/20, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote: On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 07:11 PM, Gene wrote:- |
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Bob Cavanaugh
On the other hand, now that I look at the add-on description, it's right there.
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On 12/8/20, Bob Cavanaugh via groups.io <cavbob1993@...> wrote:
I am with Gene on this, at least partially. I consider myself pretty |
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Richard Wells
I experience situations when pressing applications key or even routing
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review cursor to mouse position after pressing WINDOWS-KEY+B to focus the notification area when no action is taken on the system tray item with which I am trying to interact. In those cases, I use the system tray add-on to get the results I need. I don't care either way if it is part of NVDA or not as long as I can have access to it when I want it. I am extremely grateful to all add-on developers for the work they do that helps me in being more productive. Every NVDA installation I set up for myself or others has the SysTrayList add-on in case it is needed. On 12/8/2020 6:56 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
I am with Gene on this, at least partially. I consider myself prettyuse has the |
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Gene
Most blind Windows users do not know that enter is the equivalent of a left double clicck, that space is equivalent of a left single click and that opening the context menu with the context menu key is equivalent to a right mouse click. this simply isn't tought consistently to blind people in general and it is this specific knowledge that is necessary to use the system tray directly.
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There is no harm nor violation of anything to place a few sentences in the section dealing with the system tray explaining this. I didn't say anything about the manual teaching Windows basics in general and I didn't claim that it should. I'm saying that if you don't include the system tray dialog, considering that very few blind people know what I am explaining, that it should be explained in that section. At times, to be effective in pursuing a goall, you need to depart from ideology and do what makes sense to do in a specific situation. Neither you nor I know if our views in what should be in NVDA documentation generally agree or not, we haven't discussed that. I am talking about one very specific instance where a two decades means of working with the system tray is not included in NVDA and it is in other screen-readers. If you don't include what has become universally included elsewhere and that blind people know how to use, you should include a few lines explaining how to work with that which you are intending that blind people use as a result of what you are leaving out. I make no other statements about documentation. Gene -----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 6:26 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 07:11 PM, Gene wrote: Also, unless the manual has changed, when I checked last, a year or two ago, no instruction was given for using the system tray.- Believe it or not, Gene, I don't expect the folks at NVAccess to explain how to use a feature of Windows that has been present literally for decades. What you expect in documentation, and what I do, are two entirely different things. NVDA documentation should not be teaching Windows basics. It is entirely reasonabl to presume that a Windows user already knows about the System Tray and how it works. They should also be presumed to know how SHIFT+F10 or the Applications/Context Menu key work. These are not screen reader concepts. But with this, I'm done, because this is so meta that it has only the most tenuous connection to NVDA. The same things I said above would be applicable to documentation for Narrator, JAWS, and a number of now defunct screen readers. Users should know what's controlling what, and if they need the training to get that information, or need help from their friends, classmates, colleagues, etc., to get it then they need to pursue those avenues. It's not up to screen reader makers to teach basic Windows concepts in their documentation, except in passing as something screen reader specific is involved. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell |
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Roger Stewart
I totally agree! I use this add on at least once a week. It gives so fast access to system tray icons and just a short hotkey press to do left or right click on them. It is very useful to me. Yes, it can be done the other way, but sometimes it takes time. I do internet radio broadcasting and sometimes I just can't spend the extra time to do it the other way I'll always want this add on.
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Roger On 12/8/2020 5:41 PM, Gene wrote:
It is needed on rare occasions. At times, you can't access something properly using the system tray itself and you can with the add-on. At times, the reverse is true. |
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On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 08:54 PM, Gene wrote:
Most blind Windows users do not know that enter is the equivalent of a left double clicck, that space is equivalent of a left single click and that opening the context menu with the context menu key is equivalent to a right mouse click. this simply isn't tought consistently to blind people in general and it is this specific knowledge that is necessary to use the system tray directly.- Gene, plain and simple, I call BS! I have been around screen reader users for well over a decade now, ranging in age from under 15 years old up through individuals in their 80s. They absolutely do know these things, as a matter of routine, or they'd be unable to function with a screen reader. You don't have to be explicitly taught, instructed, etc., to figure out certain things you need to know on your own. Though I will never deny that instruction helps. I'm just not seeing these broad swaths of unaware individuals. I'm not new to this dance, and your assertions are in direct contradiction to my observations and experience since 2010. Your endless plaint that screen reader users cannot be expected to know the very basics of screen reader use is just not borne out in the real world, except in the case of complete neophytes, and that is not the bulk of the demographic that is here on this group, nor on any screen reader user group. And those who do identify themselves as neophytes, which they need to do when they are, tend to get a lot more guidance and patience than would be warranted otherwise. And I am completely out of patience with your endless insistence that the complete neophyte or the completely unaware are the common denominator. They are not. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 09:10 PM, Roger Stewart wrote:
I'll always want this add on.- And will probably always have it so long as there's a maintainer for the add-on. My issue, way back, was the assertion that this functionality should be made part of the NVDA core. I have no problem with the functionality, per se, nor with how it's implemented. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell
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Gene
That simply isn't true and I have been around my share of blind windows users. If you know that you press enter to do things like play a file, or open something in a list, you can do that and not know you are executing a double left click. Indeed, on further reflection, you aren't. The purpose of a double left click is to first select something, then click it. In the case of moving in lists and tree views, the act of movement with the arrow keys selects something, thus performing the first click. When you press enter, you are performing the second click. Thus, what I stated, on further reflection, that enter is a double click is questionable as a generalization. You can't select and open something that isn't already selected by pressing enter. You can't take any action in a list or some other structures where you first click to select something then click to take an action on the selected item. You can press enter as often and as quickly as you like on an unselected item in a list and nothing will happen. Thus, I don't know how enter is defined as a Windows command. It appears to change with context. In the system tray, it is double click. In a list it isn't.
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Most blind windows users simply do not know or care about these kinds of distinctions. They are taught to press enter to take an action after you select it with the arrow keys. they are not taught whether they are double or single clicking nor that what enter does appears to change with the context. Gene -----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 9:04 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 08:54 PM, Gene wrote: Most blind Windows users do not know that enter is the equivalent of a left double clicck, that space is equivalent of a left single click and that opening the context menu with the context menu key is equivalent to a right mouse click. this simply isn't tought consistently to blind people in general and it is this specific knowledge that is necessary to use the system tray directly.- Gene, plain and simple, I call BS! I have been around screen reader users for well over a decade now, ranging in age from under 15 years old up through individuals in their 80s. They absolutely do know these things, as a matter of routine, or they'd be unable to function with a screen reader. You don't have to be explicitly taught, instructed, etc., to figure out certain things you need to know on your own. Though I will never deny that instruction helps. I'm just not seeing these broad swaths of unaware individuals. I'm not new to this dance, and your assertions are in direct contradiction to my observations and experience since 2010. Your endless plaint that screen reader users cannot be expected to know the very basics of screen reader use is just not borne out in the real world, except in the case of complete neophytes, and that is not the bulk of the demographic that is here on this group, nor on any screen reader user group. And those who do identify themselves as neophytes, which they need to do when they are, tend to get a lot more guidance and patience than would be warranted otherwise. And I am completely out of patience with your endless insistence that the complete neophyte or the completely unaware are the common denominator. They are not. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind. ~ Thomas Reed Powell |
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