How is verbosity decided


Gene
 

I might create a ticket for this but it doesn't look to me as though the system is designed to support such tickets. Where should such a question be discussed?

I'm really annoyed that NVDA has created new verbosity that, while it might be useful, should be off by default. And one item has no way to turn it off. The announcement of figure and out of figure has no justification for anyone but someone who is interested in evaluating a web page for some purpose such as to determine how structures are used, completely irrelevant to most or almost all readers. Yet we now constantly hear figure and out of figure. Its distracting, it wastes time, and as I said, there is no setting to turn it off and it shouldn't be on in the first place.

How are such decisions made and why does the prevailing philosophy seem to be, leave almost all browse mode verbosity on by default? Who cares about bloc quote and end of bloc quote. How many people want to hear every list and embedded lists announced. The whole philosopy and intent of these settings should be reviewed.

Gene


 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 06:57 AM, Gene wrote:
Who cares about bloc quote and end of bloc quote.
-
On that one, I know scads of people who care about this, particularly when dealing with email messages involving a lot of back and forth.

On GitHub for NVAccess there exist two options as far as the creation of an Issue:  Bug Report and Feature Request.   I'd say that yours falls in to the category of Feature Request, since NVDA is running as currently designed, but that design is problematic for you as an end user.

I thought that NVDA had what I think JAWS calls verbosity levels, but I cannot seem to recall what they're called if they do, or under what settings they're tweaked.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Gene
 

I've filed a bug report but I didn't know about feature requests. I'll see what I can find. Maybe its time for NVDA to have profiles in the program as installed that would, for example, read bloc quote when popular e-mail programs are being used but not when browsing. Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually, they are a way of presenting text which would be read exactly the same way, such as a link, and other material of very questionable value?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 10:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 06:57 AM, Gene wrote:
Who cares about bloc quote and end of bloc quote.-
On that one, I know scads of people who care about this, particularly when dealing with email messages involving a lot of back and forth.

On GitHub for NVAccess there exist two options as far as the creation of an Issue: Bug Report and Feature Request. I'd say that yours falls in to the category of Feature Request, since NVDA is running as currently designed, but that design is problematic for you as an end user.

I thought that NVDA had what I think JAWS calls verbosity levels, but I cannot seem to recall what they're called if they do, or under what settings they're tweaked.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually
-
The problem being, Gene, is that they have meaning that has a visual presentation.  In "the olden days" quotation levels were shown using however many > characters were necessary at the outset of every line.  That still does get used in plain text.

Block quotes aren't about "pretty" or "no meaning except visually."  They tell you, if you're keeping track of what was announced just before them, who's saying what.  And even if someone's sloppy about attribution, it still gives you a clear indication that the writer currently writing is not the author of what's being presented as a block quote.  That's not trivial information in a wide variety of contexts.  The difference between someone like me who can see the actual formatting and know this, and a screen reader user, is that the latter cannot know this unless the presence of the beginning and end of a block quote is not announced.

I'm not arguing with you about what you, Gene, may or may not want.  That's not up for argument, as it's a matter of taste.  But you cannot characterize something like block quote announcement as a triviality in a great many contexts, and it's better that it be on by default, and able to be turned off, than off by default, for the reasons I've already mentioned.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


 

Hi,
These can be configured through document formatting settings panel, and can be customized based on which app you are using. This is the reason why app-specific configuration profiles exist, and in some cases, these settings can be toggled off to achieve alternate say all (through a profile).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 9:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

I've filed a bug report but I didn't know about feature requests. I'll see what I can find. Maybe its time for NVDA to have profiles in the program as installed that would, for example, read bloc quote when popular e-mail programs are being used but not when browsing. Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually, they are a way of presenting text which would be read exactly the same way, such as a link, and other material of very questionable value?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 10:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 06:57 AM, Gene wrote:
Who cares about bloc quote and end of bloc quote.- On that one, I know scads of people who care about this, particularly when dealing with email messages involving a lot of back and forth.

On GitHub for NVAccess there exist two options as far as the creation of an
Issue: Bug Report and Feature Request. I'd say that yours falls in to the
category of Feature Request, since NVDA is running as currently designed, but that design is problematic for you as an end user.

I thought that NVDA had what I think JAWS calls verbosity levels, but I cannot seem to recall what they're called if they do, or under what settings they're tweaked.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


 

i totally agree with you gene.
but i turned off all document formatting check boxes except reporting
page number.
is it possible that i define a shortcut for it and disable this option too?
for example: i press a shortcut key and nvda tells me the page number
which i am in, but dont say it when using SayAll or even when
navigating by using arrow keys.

On 12/16/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I might create a ticket for this but it doesn't look to me as though the
system is designed to support such tickets. Where should such a question be

discussed?

I'm really annoyed that NVDA has created new verbosity that, while it might

be useful, should be off by default. And one item has no way to turn it
off. The announcement of figure and out of figure has no justification for

anyone but someone who is interested in evaluating a web page for some
purpose such as to determine how structures are used, completely irrelevant

to most or almost all readers. Yet we now constantly hear figure and out of

figure. Its distracting, it wastes time, and as I said, there is no setting

to turn it off and it shouldn't be on in the first place.

How are such decisions made and why does the prevailing philosophy seem to
be, leave almost all browse mode verbosity on by default? Who cares about
bloc quote and end of bloc quote. How many people want to hear every list
and embedded lists announced. The whole philosopy and intent of these
settings should be reviewed.

Gene






--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Gene
 

I almost never have trouble knowing when something is being quoted from context. I have never read a talking book where the reader says something like block qquote nor says quote, unquote, when quoting people. Context can tell you most or almost all of what you need to know in this respect.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually-
The problem being, Gene, is that they have meaning that has a visual presentation. In "the olden days" quotation levels were shown using however many > characters were necessary at the outset of every line. That still does get used in plain text.

Block quotes aren't about "pretty" or "no meaning except visually." They tell you, if you're keeping track of what was announced just before them, who's saying what. And even if someone's sloppy about attribution, it still gives you a clear indication that the writer currently writing is not the author of what's being presented as a block quote. That's not trivial information in a wide variety of contexts. The difference between someone like me who can see the actual formatting and know this, and a screen reader user, is that the latter cannot know this unless the presence of the beginning and end of a block quote is not announced.

I'm not arguing with you about what you, Gene, may or may not want. That's not up for argument, as it's a matter of taste. But you cannot characterize something like block quote announcement as a triviality in a great many contexts, and it's better that it be on by default, and able to be turned off, than off by default, for the reasons I've already mentioned.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Gene
 

What I'm saying is that jjust as NVDA and other screen-readers are customized to work in certain ways with certain programs, maybe its time to have included in the program profiles that will cause different levels of verbosity for,, say Outlook or Thunderbird and a browser.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

Hi,
These can be configured through document formatting settings panel, and can be customized based on which app you are using. This is the reason why app-specific configuration profiles exist, and in some cases, these settings can be toggled off to achieve alternate say all (through a profile).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 9:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

I've filed a bug report but I didn't know about feature requests. I'll see what I can find. Maybe its time for NVDA to have profiles in the program as installed that would, for example, read bloc quote when popular e-mail programs are being used but not when browsing. Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually, they are a way of presenting text which would be read exactly the same way, such as a link, and other material of very questionable value?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 10:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 06:57 AM, Gene wrote:
Who cares about bloc quote and end of bloc quote.- On that one, I know scads of people who care about this, particularly when dealing with email messages involving a lot of back and forth.

On GitHub for NVAccess there exist two options as far as the creation of an
Issue: Bug Report and Feature Request. I'd say that yours falls in to the
category of Feature Request, since NVDA is running as currently designed, but that design is problematic for you as an end user.

I thought that NVDA had what I think JAWS calls verbosity levels, but I cannot seem to recall what they're called if they do, or under what settings they're tweaked.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Gene
 

I can't answer that question but I think turning off links is going too far.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: zahra
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 12:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

i totally agree with you gene.
but i turned off all document formatting check boxes except reporting
page number.
is it possible that i define a shortcut for it and disable this option too?
for example: i press a shortcut key and nvda tells me the page number
which i am in, but dont say it when using SayAll or even when
navigating by using arrow keys.

On 12/16/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I might create a ticket for this but it doesn't look to me as though the
system is designed to support such tickets. Where should such a question be

discussed?

I'm really annoyed that NVDA has created new verbosity that, while it might

be useful, should be off by default. And one item has no way to turn it
off. The announcement of figure and out of figure has no justification for

anyone but someone who is interested in evaluating a web page for some
purpose such as to determine how structures are used, completely irrelevant

to most or almost all readers. Yet we now constantly hear figure and out of

figure. Its distracting, it wastes time, and as I said, there is no setting

to turn it off and it shouldn't be on in the first place.

How are such decisions made and why does the prevailing philosophy seem to
be, leave almost all browse mode verbosity on by default? Who cares about
bloc quote and end of bloc quote. How many people want to hear every list
and embedded lists announced. The whole philosopy and intent of these
settings should be reviewed.

Gene







--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Gene wrote:
What I'm saying is that jjust as NVDA and other screen-readers are customized to work in certain ways with certain programs,
-
Did you read message, https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/79813, from Joseph Lee, that came in 30 minutes before you posted this?  App/application specific behavior already exists, and has for quite a while.  I don't think that any version of NVDA I've ever touched didn't have it, but I could be wrong about when it was introduced.  I thought it had been present since day one, but am not sure about that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually many of the narrators I listen to say "quote" and "unquote" especially if "m reading histories which I do a lot. and if you have a quote within a quote within a quote it can get a little messy. so for me it is very much relevant I even use "quote" or "in quotes" when I'm teaching my classes as my voice might not be able to let the student know, or they might not be used to the way I speak when I do indicate quotes with my voice. I say block quotes are very much needed, for me.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 16 Dec 2020, at 10:19, Gene wrote:

I almost never have trouble knowing when something is being quoted from context. I have never read a talking book where the reader says something like block quote nor says quote, unquote, when quoting people. Context can tell you most or almost all of what you need to know in this respect.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually-
The problem being, Gene, is that they have meaning that has a visual presentation. In "the olden days" quotation levels were shown using however many > characters were necessary at the outset of every line. That still does get used in plain text.

Block quotes aren't about "pretty" or "no meaning except visually." They tell you, if you're keeping track of what was announced just before them, who's saying what. And even if someone's sloppy about attribution, it still gives you a clear indication that the writer currently writing is not the author of what's being presented as a block quote. That's not trivial information in a wide variety of contexts. The difference between someone like me who can see the actual formatting and know this, and a screen reader user, is that the latter cannot know this unless the presence of the beginning and end of a block quote is not announced.

I'm not arguing with you about what you, Gene, may or may not want. That's not up for argument, as it's a matter of taste. But you cannot characterize something like block quote announcement as a triviality in a great many contexts, and it's better that it be on by default, and able to be turned off, than off by default, for the reasons I've already mentioned.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner








Gene
 

I read it but I'm talking about something else. I'm talking about having profiles in the program at the time its downloaded that will cause differences such as bloc quotes to be announced in popular e-mail programs and not on the wweb. I suppose there might be other ways to do this but I would think profiles would be the easiest way. Of course, NVDA uses scripts for various programs but that isn't what I had in mind.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 1:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Gene wrote:
What I'm saying is that jjust as NVDA and other screen-readers are customized to work in certain ways with certain programs,-
Did you read message, https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/79813, from Joseph Lee, that came in 30 minutes before you posted this? App/application specific behavior already exists, and has for quite a while. I don't think that any version of NVDA I've ever touched didn't have it, but I could be wrong about when it was introduced. I thought it had been present since day one, but am not sure about that.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 04:21 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm talking about having profiles in the program at the time its downloaded that will cause differences such as bloc quotes to be announced in popular e-mail programs and not on the wweb.

-
I imagine it would be possible for NVAccess to create Configuration Profiles for any of a number of popular programs, and include them as part of the package.  But the problem remains, defaults have to be chosen, and no matter what those are someone's not going to like them.

You have already had me, and Sarah, so far express why your chosen preference for you is something that neither of us would want as the default.  That's not saying that your choice is wrong or inferior or that ours is better or superior, it all comes down to "tool to task".

Gene, you have expressed, on many occasions, that many screen reader users do not know how to use many of the features of their chosen screen readers for a number of different reasons, and I think that's the case here, to an extent.  I just spent a few minutes playing with configuration profiles and triggers related to same and they're pretty straightforward.  Even I will say that I can see a reason one might want to have predefined profiles for the various web browsers, and certain other programs, that are different from what the default NVDA configuration profile is, and one could legitimately discuss and argue what the default settings for some of those various profiles should be.  But in the end, the end user absolutely, positively needs to know how to tweak these profiles if they were pre-existing, or to create them if they are not, if they have specific behaviors they want to see when a certain program is active.

Joseph Lee introduced me to the concept of information blackout in regard to screen reader users.  There is no way that a screen reader can take in everything that appears on the screen at any given moment as a whole and deal with multiple elements like sighted people do, just because that's how sight and visual processing works.  That means that from the outset there are things you don't know are there.  When you add in that when text is read, with formatting, and you can't know what any given user at any given time might or might not find significant, you leave all options for announcement (or most of them, anyway), turned ON.  You will never, and should never try, to second guess what any given individual may or may not find significant as far as a lot of document formatting goes.  It took me all of a few minutes to figure out where the NVDA Configuration Profile Settings are (NVDA+N,C), create a new profile for a specific program on which I had focus before issuing that command (Use this profile for section, Current application radio button), and then using Document Formatting Options while that profile is active (you just continue on to those settings after having created the profile, which should still be active since you haven't changed the application which still has focus) to change what is/is not announced.

While you can argue, and should, what reasonable defaults are, in the end it is up to the end user to know how to do what I just described.  And if they're annoyed about stuff being announced to post a message to a forum like this one asking about how they can get rid of the issue.

There is not, and never will be, a one-size-fits-all out of the box that makes every user happy.  And the tools exist to, if not make any given user entirely happy, bring them an awful lot closer to that state.

When you have a problem, after briefly venting about it in a venue such as this, the next question should be:  Is there I way I can make this work the way I want it to work? And explaining exactly what that is if the initial problem description and venting did not make that entirely clear.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually this can already be done. Set up an activity profile, or what ever nvda calls it, and turn off the block quotes in the profiles you want , then have them activate when you go into an app or manually activate it.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 16 Dec 2020, at 13:21, Gene wrote:

I read it but I'm talking about something else. I'm talking about having profiles in the program at the time its downloaded that will cause differences such as bloc quotes to be announced in popular e-mail programs and not on the wweb. I suppose there might be other ways to do this but I would think profiles would be the easiest way. Of course, NVDA uses scripts for various programs but that isn't what I had in mind.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 1:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Gene wrote:
What I'm saying is that jjust as NVDA and other screen-readers are customized to work in certain ways with certain programs,-
Did you read message, https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/79813, from Joseph Lee, that came in 30 minutes before you posted this? App/application specific behavior already exists, and has for quite a while. I don't think that any version of NVDA I've ever touched didn't have it, but I could be wrong about when it was introduced. I thought it had been present since day one, but am not sure about that.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner








 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 04:21 PM, Gene wrote:
Of course, NVDA uses scripts for various programs but that isn't what I had in mind.
-
I know what follows is hair-splitting, but my time in the screen reader world has taught me that sometimes it's necessary.

To my knowledge, it is only JAWS that uses scripts and uses the term scripts.  NVDA uses add-ons.  These mechanisms are more about ease of accessibility than behavior configuration, per se.

I believe both use the term configuration profile or just profile as it relates to setting things up to work as you want it to in a given individual program.  I know that JAWS used to do what you mentioned, and that is ship certain profiles as part of the product that cause behavioral change depending on what program JAWS happens to be running over.  It certainly appears that these configuration profiles are stored in files that a user could share with other users or port with them to other systems (presuming they're using installed NVDA, portable NVDA already carries these along as part of the folder hierarchy for portable NVDA)
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Gene
 

I will say that the reason I wrote my first message, the motivation that got me to do it is the newly added announcement of figure and out of figure. I have found no setting to control this announcement. If there is a way I overlooked, of course I'd like to know. But I see no reason for this announcement to be on. I haven't encountered it once where it adds any understanding of content. I might hear figure and then a link being read, then out of figure. The link would read exactly the same either way.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 3:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 04:21 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm talking about having profiles in the program at the time its downloaded that will cause differences such as bloc quotes to be announced in popular e-mail programs and not on the wweb.

-
I imagine it would be possible for NVAccess to create Configuration Profiles for any of a number of popular programs, and include them as part of the package. But the problem remains, defaults have to be chosen, and no matter what those are someone's not going to like them.

You have already had me, and Sarah, so far express why your chosen preference for you is something that neither of us would want as the default. That's not saying that your choice is wrong or inferior or that ours is better or superior, it all comes down to "tool to task".

Gene, you have expressed, on many occasions, that many screen reader users do not know how to use many of the features of their chosen screen readers for a number of different reasons, and I think that's the case here, to an extent. I just spent a few minutes playing with configuration profiles and triggers related to same and they're pretty straightforward. Even I will say that I can see a reason one might want to have predefined profiles for the various web browsers, and certain other programs, that are different from what the default NVDA configuration profile is, and one could legitimately discuss and argue what the default settings for some of those various profiles should be. But in the end, the end user absolutely, positively needs to know how to tweak these profiles if they were pre-existing, or to create them if they are not, if they have specific behaviors they want to see when a certain program is active.

Joseph Lee introduced me to the concept of information blackout in regard to screen reader users. There is no way that a screen reader can take in everything that appears on the screen at any given moment as a whole and deal with multiple elements like sighted people do, just because that's how sight and visual processing works. That means that from the outset there are things you don't know are there. When you add in that when text is read, with formatting, and you can't know what any given user at any given time might or might not find significant, you leave all options for announcement (or most of them, anyway), turned ON. You will never, and should never try, to second guess what any given individual may or may not find significant as far as a lot of document formatting goes. It took me all of a few minutes to figure out where the NVDA Configuration Profile Settings are (NVDA+N,C), create a new profile for a specific program on which I had focus before issuing that command (Use this profile for section, Current application radio button), and then using Document Formatting Options while that profile is active (you just continue on to those settings after having created the profile, which should still be active since you haven't changed the application which still has focus) to change what is/is not announced.

While you can argue, and should, what reasonable defaults are, in the end it is up to the end user to know how to do what I just described. And if they're annoyed about stuff being announced to post a message to a forum like this one asking about how they can get rid of the issue.

There is not, and never will be, a one-size-fits-all out of the box that makes every user happy. And the tools exist to, if not make any given user entirely happy, bring them an awful lot closer to that state.

When you have a problem, after briefly venting about it in a venue such as this, the next question should be: Is there I way I can make this work the way I want it to work? And explaining exactly what that is if the initial problem description and venting did not make that entirely clear.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 05:13 PM, Gene wrote:
newly added announcement of figure and out of figure. I have found no setting to control this announcement.
-
I'll agree that:

1. This could be mighty annoying.
2. It's something that should be toggle-able like most other document formatting announcements are.

My guess is that focus was on getting the function to work, but that adding another checkbox to Document Formatting options slipped through the cracks.  I don't know whether such a request would be considered a bug report versus feature request.  I'd be more inclined toward bug report, as there is a well established collection of settings that would seem to have been the ideal place to add a checkbox for this, but it didn't happen.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


g melconian <gmelconian619@...>
 

It could be a bug report. As  well as an improvement to  improve the features.  


 

Hi,

When you do file a bug report (be sure to check for existing issues first, especially closed ones), be sure to CC me and Quentin (my GitHub ID is josephsl).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of g melconian
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 3:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

 

It could be a bug report. As  well as an improvement to  improve the features.  


Quentin Christensen
 

Firstly,

Yes you are correct, figures are reported but there is currently no document formatting option to toggle that.  There is, however, an issue for that already - so do feel free to subscribe to that for updates on when it is updated: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10826

The idea of including configuration profiles in NVDA itself is of course possible, but what would be included? (rhetorical question!)

If we did that, then suddenly some programs would behave differently to others - or you'd really want to change a setting, and yet it wouldn't be changed in every program, and why does NVDA read this really useful information in Word but not Firefox?  It would cause more problems than it would solve, especially as how one user uses Word for instance, might be very different to how another user does.

So the best solution, we feel, is to not have any configuration profiles setup by default, but to hopefully teach users how to access them.  I have put forward my idea for improving configuration profiles here: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10322 - as with any other issue, feel free to subscribe to that, or to add your own 2 cents to it if you have a point to add which hasn't been made already on the issue.

The scripts term is a bit confusing.  Most of the time when people use it, they mean either Jaws scripts or NVDA add-ons.  In fact, the term has crept into our "What's new" document (in quite a few places as I look at it now) to mean a software function in NVDA itself.  For instance in 2020.3 one change was:

"The Report formatting script (NVDA+f) has now been changed to report the formatting at the system caret rather than at the review cursor position. To report formatting at the review cursor position now use NVDA+shift+f. (#9505)"

Which refers to NVDA's own internal routine which runs when a user presses NVDA+f.  So Gene's comment about NVDA using "scripts for various programs", is (I think I'm reading his intentions correctly) in line with that usage of the word, and I'm happy to put my hand up and say we can take the blame for that particular confusion :)

Also the difference between bug report and feature request is more around the prompts in the template itself - the issue still ends up in the same place (as an issue), and several people have commented that we should actually add a few more of the prompt questions from the bug report template to the feature request template.  In essence, whatever you are reporting or requesting, try to include as much information as possible which might be relevant, even if it isn't explicitly asked.

Quentin.



On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 9:56 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 05:13 PM, Gene wrote:
newly added announcement of figure and out of figure. I have found no setting to control this announcement.
-
I'll agree that:

1. This could be mighty annoying.
2. It's something that should be toggle-able like most other document formatting announcements are.

My guess is that focus was on getting the function to work, but that adding another checkbox to Document Formatting options slipped through the cracks.  I don't know whether such a request would be considered a bug report versus feature request.  I'd be more inclined toward bug report, as there is a well established collection of settings that would seem to have been the ideal place to add a checkbox for this, but it didn't happen.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager