Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice


Nimer Jaber
 

Hello everyone,

Here's hoping this message finds you well, and if you celebrate the new year, then happy early New Year!

I want to be very clear on an issue which has risen on this list. I want to make sure my words are plain, so if you don't understand, please reach out to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and I will help clarify for you.

Brian has, and will continue to have my full support as a moderator of this list. I have not seen any reason why he should not enjoy my support, and I have not had anyone contact me to state why my support is misplaced. Notice I did not say anything about Brian's vision status, gender, race, or anything else. I said Brian, as a human being, enjoys my full support.

As all of us are humans, and as the world has so many issues dividing us, please, let's not allow vision, or the lack of it, dictate how we treat one another. Discrimination takes many forms, and I believe, it is no better to discriminate regarding an individual's site than it is an individual's lack of it, or an individual's skin color, ethnicity, or any other characteristic. I take this seriously, as you all should, because we have many issues going on in the world today, and I definitely believe that whether an individual has sight or not should not be one of those issues.

If you have a problem with Brian's responses because of the fact that he has vision, then I suggest you learn to lose your narrow-mindedness and find a more welcoming list for your ignorance. You could, of course, learn to use your email filters. Nonetheless, I will not tolerate any discrimination on this list, and will treat such transgressions severely. This may mean loss of posting privileges, or a ban altogether, something I do not do lightly.

I hope that the incident that happened today does not repeat itself, yet be assured that discrimination is against the NVAccess code of conduct, Groups.IO rules, this list's rules, and my personal moral code, so I hope you will all understand where I am coming from on this.

Thank you for your membership to this list. We are nearly at 1,500 members, all from various cultures and walks of life, all from various countries. The one thing that binds us all is our humanity. Thank you for being you, thank you for being part of this community, and thank you for your time in reading this message and your understanding of this matter. I hope we can all respect one another in the way that every human deserves.

--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Arlene
 

  Happy  New year to you all. What! Brian has vision? I didn’t know that! Nor do I care that he does.  I thought he was totally blind like most people on the list.  The reason I thought he was blind like us is because he talks in a way that most of us blind users talk wile operating our computers.  Well, all the world to him looking after this list. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Nimer Jaber
Sent: December 29, 2020 9:52 PM
To: NVDA@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hello everyone,

 

Here's hoping this message finds you well, and if you celebrate the new year, then happy early New Year!

 

I want to be very clear on an issue which has risen on this list. I want to make sure my words are plain, so if you don't understand, please reach out to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and I will help clarify for you.

 

Brian has, and will continue to have my full support as a moderator of this list. I have not seen any reason why he should not enjoy my support, and I have not had anyone contact me to state why my support is misplaced. Notice I did not say anything about Brian's vision status, gender, race, or anything else. I said Brian, as a human being, enjoys my full support.

 

As all of us are humans, and as the world has so many issues dividing us, please, let's not allow vision, or the lack of it, dictate how we treat one another. Discrimination takes many forms, and I believe, it is no better to discriminate regarding an individual's site than it is an individual's lack of it, or an individual's skin color, ethnicity, or any other characteristic. I take this seriously, as you all should, because we have many issues going on in the world today, and I definitely believe that whether an individual has sight or not should not be one of those issues.

 

If you have a problem with Brian's responses because of the fact that he has vision, then I suggest you learn to lose your narrow-mindedness and find a more welcoming list for your ignorance. You could, of course, learn to use your email filters. Nonetheless, I will not tolerate any discrimination on this list, and will treat such transgressions severely. This may mean loss of posting privileges, or a ban altogether, something I do not do lightly.

 

I hope that the incident that happened today does not repeat itself, yet be assured that discrimination is against the NVAccess code of conduct, Groups.IO rules, this list's rules, and my personal moral code, so I hope you will all understand where I am coming from on this.

 

Thank you for your membership to this list. We are nearly at 1,500 members, all from various cultures and walks of life, all from various countries. The one thing that binds us all is our humanity. Thank you for being you, thank you for being part of this community, and thank you for your time in reading this message and your understanding of this matter. I hope we can all respect one another in the way that every human deserves.

 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!

 


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Arleen,


I forgot that Brian is sighted. I think it's great that he's worked with blind clients and as far as his vision, that doesn't bother me in the least. I've had very good teachers who were sighted and their vision never even crossed my mind.


Rosemarie

On 12/29/2020 10:57 PM, Arlene wrote:
Happy New year to you all. What! Brian has vision? I didn’t know that! Nor
do I care that he does. I thought he was totally blind like most people on the
list. The reason I thought he was blind like us is because he talks in a way
that most of us blind users talk wile operating our computers. Well, all the
world to him looking after this list.

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

*From: *Nimer Jaber <mailto:nimerjaber1@gmail.com>
*Sent: *December 29, 2020 9:52 PM
*To: *NVDA@nvda.groups.io <mailto:NVDA@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *[nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Hello everyone,

Here's hoping this message finds you well, and if you celebrate the new year,
then happy early New Year!

I want to be very clear on an issue which has risen on this list. I want to make
sure my words are plain, so if you don't understand, please reach out to
nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda%2Bowner@nvda.groups.io> and I will help
clarify for you.

Brian has, and will continue to have my full support as a moderator of this
list. I have not seen any reason why he should not enjoy my support, and I have
not had anyone contact me to state why my support is misplaced. Notice I did not
say anything about Brian's vision status, gender, race, or anything else. I said
Brian, as a human being, enjoys my full support.

As all of us are humans, and as the world has so many issues dividing us,
please, let's not allow vision, or the lack of it, dictate how we treat one
another. Discrimination takes many forms, and I believe, it is no better to
discriminate regarding an individual's site than it is an individual's lack of
it, or an individual's skin color, ethnicity, or any other characteristic. I
take this seriously, as you all should, because we have many issues going on in
the world today, and I definitely believe that whether an individual has sight
or not should not be one of those issues.

If you have a problem with Brian's responses because of the fact that he has
vision, then I suggest you learn to lose your narrow-mindedness and find a more
welcoming list for your ignorance. You could, of course, learn to use your email
filters. Nonetheless, I will not tolerate any discrimination on this list, and
will treat such transgressions severely. This may mean loss of posting
privileges, or a ban altogether, something I do not do lightly.

I hope that the incident that happened today does not repeat itself, yet be
assured that discrimination is against the NVAccess code of conduct, Groups.IO
rules, this list's rules, and my personal moral code, so I hope you will all
understand where I am coming from on this.

Thank you for your membership to this list. We are nearly at 1,500 members, all
from various cultures and walks of life, all from various countries. The one
thing that binds us all is our humanity. Thank you for being you, thank you for
being part of this community, and thank you for your time in reading this
message and your understanding of this matter. I hope we can all respect one
another in the way that every human deserves.

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/ <http://counter.li.org/>

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


g melconian
 

brian, I also welcome all your found knowledge of how you approach things and how you make things really well to understand for us blind users. Thanks for you being the moderator of all these different lists that you run with the amount of time that you have in the day. Thank you very much I also support all your efforts and I also have been in communications back and forth with you privately on email chassis communications so I also support everything that you're doing to help out the blind community. Thank you very much and have a good happy holidays. Take care.

On December 30, 2020 9:29:55 AM "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> wrote:

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Arlene
 

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 


Jimmy Vonderlinden
 

you are amazing and Ive learned alot from you and everyone on this list. I hope this isn't the end of you or this great llist. I would hate to see it go!
Hope you all have a happy new year!


Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Jimmy,

No, Brian is not going anywhere, unless he chooses to. Thank you all for your support of Brian!

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:36 AM Jimmy Vonderlinden via groups.io <jimmyv1130=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
you are amazing and Ive learned alot from you and everyone on this list. I hope this isn't the end of you or this great llist. I would hate to see it go!
Hope you all have a happy new year!



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Arlene,

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian doesn't sound "blind".

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your physical characteristics.

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us unique.

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Gary Metzler
 

Very well said.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hello Arlene,

 

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian doesn't sound "blind".

 

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your physical characteristics.

 

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us unique.

 

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!


Jackie
 

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person. Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!








--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@freelists.org with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com


Luis Carlos González Moráles
 

Didn't know about bryan's vision either. Wow, this world is really changing.
Happy new year all, or as I say, "Happy new decade"!
P.S. I'm composing a new decade anthem "if that's the name of it".

Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person. Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!








--
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Gene
 

There is no inherent reason a sighted person can't provide instructions that correspond to the way blind people generally do things on computers or anywhere else.  It depends what they know.


Conversely, and this is being overlooked in the discussion, blind people who know how can provide instructions similar to what a sighted person would provide for a sighted person.


for example, I could tell a sighted person to open a program, click on the tools menu or the gear icon, if I knew that is how it is shown, and it usually is, then click options, and so on.


The ability to do this means that a blind person understands how to apply sighted instructions to using a computer as a blind person usually does.  If blind people know something about translating sighted instructions into blind procedures, they will be able to help themselves learn more programs and can often follow instructions on how to work with this or that feature in programs they already use that are written for sighted people.


If a blind person is interested and wants to learn these things, the benefits may be meaningful to the person.  Many blind people only use programs that have specific instructional material for blind people and their interests don't go further.  But its important that this other side of the discussion be pointed out.


Gene

On 12/30/2020 2:19 PM, Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person. Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!









 

That could be a little generalistic.

On here, sure probably spot on.

However I have had instances, some of which were in university, where one person helping me actually had a second terminal and looked up keyboard shortcuts and such but another did everything because they didn't know what else to do.

I have had similar issues with some stuff.

Say the system was broken.

Sightling wants to fix the thing themselves.

I try to instruct, and they still get it wrong.

So I guess it works both ways.

I've also had various instructions given to me that were not the right ones.

Some by those that should have known better to.

These were to fix  issues that I was asking for.

They ended up breaking things a lot more.

Excluding microsoft support here, I actually had something else that I wanted to get help fixing.

Lets just say the instructions didn't fix things.

They made them worse.

I had to take the long way round, which is the way I usually do if its just to broken for me to care.

Of course things are more complex when they break and it takes me a while to rebuild rather than fix a broken thing.

I have friends that while quite smart with tech, I wouldn't trust enough to tell me how to print a document or update an app, and thats because I have done it the other way.

I guess the good thing is we don't easily get destracted with flashy buttons.

To set up somethings, for say a device, open the right program, install the right driver, etc.

They are open the right program, install the right driver, click the interesting add that looks to say install drivers without reading it.

Load the extra stuff by clicking about, go through instructions to install something without reading the entire screen or worse try to text and do computer work at the same time.

Finnish, put in payment information to install drivers, finally put down their phone and find they are lost.

They ask me, where they are.

And I go updating a program, where did you go, they say don't know.

I installed something told it download now and did a few other things and it all loaded.

And I go, were you on the phone and they go yeah and I go, maybe you give it to me to fix and I try to do it.

Of course once I clear the spyware, and possibly clean install their os, I try the command on my system, their system, my couple extra workstations and find it works and wander, where they went wrong.

I have also had sightlings go all over the place bar the icons they should or get impatient I am navigating slowly to where I need instead of rappidly moving toward it and clicking randomly.

So in some cases its better to be instructing the sightling rather than the other way round.

One of the worst half screen readers is my dad.

At least once a year he loads spyware and other junk on his system because he is trying to follow what should be a simple instruction.

But I guess its the generation.

My now dead grandpa never caught up with computers and my aunt while she knows enough about work stuff and office would panic if windows didn't start with the network working.

She doesn't want to learn either though.

There are those sorts of people about to instruct us to.

So for a beginner, you need to know simple things, like double click translates to enter.

Single click of left could be space, right click is the applications key or shift f10, etc.

All those shaped icons like envelopes and corners just don't work, etc, etc, etc.

In fact even if you are not sure, even if you don't ever want to rtfm like I hardly do, at least read a simple shortcut list of required keys before asking for or instructing and you may get about unless the program is visual in nature.

I learned things through trial and error.

So radio buttons are buttons you can check and uncheck, checkboxes are boxes, combo boxes and list boxes are just boxes with lists in them.

And some stuff doesn't translate at all.

Instructions are generally fine from a sighted person, but depends what they are, those can be subjective.

On 31/12/2020 9:43 am, Gene wrote:
There is no inherent reason a sighted person can't provide instructions that correspond to the way blind people generally do things on computers or anywhere else.  It depends what they know.


Conversely, and this is being overlooked in the discussion, blind people who know how can provide instructions similar to what a sighted person would provide for a sighted person.


for example, I could tell a sighted person to open a program, click on the tools menu or the gear icon, if I knew that is how it is shown, and it usually is, then click options, and so on.


The ability to do this means that a blind person understands how to apply sighted instructions to using a computer as a blind person usually does.  If blind people know something about translating sighted instructions into blind procedures, they will be able to help themselves learn more programs and can often follow instructions on how to work with this or that feature in programs they already use that are written for sighted people.


If a blind person is interested and wants to learn these things, the benefits may be meaningful to the person.  Many blind people only use programs that have specific instructional material for blind people and their interests don't go further.  But its important that this other side of the discussion be pointed out.


Gene

On 12/30/2020 2:19 PM, Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought
you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader
helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind
users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

            I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

            But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.
  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

         ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!











Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I couldn't have said it better.

On 12/30/2020 11:54 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello Arlene,

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us?
Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a
community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal,
anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all
are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be
the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the
table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian
that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone
else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences,
we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the
end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls,
regardless of your physical characteristics.

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard
to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone
to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus
please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things
that make us unique.

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com> wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I
thought you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a
good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You
know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a
blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said
that screen reader helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me
to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how
to talk like us blind users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t
see. He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if
this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She
described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted
person. Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe
tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows. He had full
sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10



*From: *Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>
*Sent: *December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
#adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and
particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am
sighted. I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on
any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe
I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can
or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've
simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and
visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful
lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part,
much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact
that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone
else does. There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and
it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's
not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas
to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] *Pleased with the SCOTUS
ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.*

~ Brendan Buck, *former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul
Ryan and John Boehner*







Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Shaun,

I had trouble following your message, but I think your message goes against everything I said. What your experience is of course matters, and is legitimate, but it doesn't help you move past your stereotypes. I believe that each interaction should be viewed as unique, and personally, I've had just as many issues with blind people as I have with non-blind people. Same kinds of issues, too. So from my perspective, it is important to take each interaction as an opportunity to learn from someone, to grow, and to not bring up a long history of how it is wrong to not accept a sighted person's instructions. So for me, I welcome Brian's instruction, and anyone else that comes on this list, without the verbiage of their sight or lack of it.

Thanks everyone for this discussion. Ordinarily, I would say that this should be moved to the chat list, but maybe we'll keep it going for a bit longer, as it seems like an important dialog to be having.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 2:21 PM Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
I couldn't have said it better.



On 12/30/2020 11:54 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
> Hello Arlene,
>
> I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
> posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in
> support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
> doesn't sound "blind".
>
> What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people
> as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not
> have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us?
> Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a
> community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal,
> anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all
> are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be
> the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the
> table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian
> that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone
> else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences,
> we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the
> end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls,
> regardless of your physical characteristics.
>
> For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard
> to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone
> to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus
> please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things
> that make us unique.
>
> Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:
>
>> I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I
>> thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a
>> good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You
>> know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a
>> blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
>> The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said
>> that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me
>> to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how
>> to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t
>> see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if
>> this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She
>> described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted
>> person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe
>> tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full
>> sight.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
>> *Sent: *December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
>> *To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> *Subject: *Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
>> #adminnotice
>>
>>
>>
>> Rosemarie and Arlene,
>>
>>             I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and
>> particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am
>> sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on
>> any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe
>> I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can
>> or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've
>> simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and
>> visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful
>> lot.
>>
>>             But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part,
>> much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact
>> that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone
>> else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and
>> it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's
>> not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
>> --
>>
>> Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
>>
>> [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas
>> to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  *Pleased with the SCOTUS
>> ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
>> goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.*
>>
>>          ~ Brendan Buck, *former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul
>> Ryan and John Boehner*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>







--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Dennis L <dennisl1982@...>
 

First I worked with Brian once. He gave his time and tried to get my shut down sound to play. I found him to be very smart and knowledgeable. He knew how to explain things that I understood. He explained what he was doing when we did a remote session. Did the problem get resolved no but that wasn't for a lack of effort on Brian's part. So I agree we shouldn't judge.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 5:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

That could be a little generalistic.

On here, sure probably spot on.

However I have had instances, some of which were in university, where one person helping me actually had a second terminal and looked up keyboard shortcuts and such but another did everything because they didn't know what else to do.

I have had similar issues with some stuff.

Say the system was broken.

Sightling wants to fix the thing themselves.

I try to instruct, and they still get it wrong.

So I guess it works both ways.

I've also had various instructions given to me that were not the right ones.

Some by those that should have known better to.

These were to fix issues that I was asking for.

They ended up breaking things a lot more.

Excluding microsoft support here, I actually had something else that I wanted to get help fixing.

Lets just say the instructions didn't fix things.

They made them worse.

I had to take the long way round, which is the way I usually do if its just to broken for me to care.

Of course things are more complex when they break and it takes me a while to rebuild rather than fix a broken thing.

I have friends that while quite smart with tech, I wouldn't trust enough to tell me how to print a document or update an app, and thats because I have done it the other way.

I guess the good thing is we don't easily get destracted with flashy buttons.

To set up somethings, for say a device, open the right program, install the right driver, etc.

They are open the right program, install the right driver, click the interesting add that looks to say install drivers without reading it.

Load the extra stuff by clicking about, go through instructions to install something without reading the entire screen or worse try to text and do computer work at the same time.

Finnish, put in payment information to install drivers, finally put down their phone and find they are lost.

They ask me, where they are.

And I go updating a program, where did you go, they say don't know.

I installed something told it download now and did a few other things and it all loaded.

And I go, were you on the phone and they go yeah and I go, maybe you give it to me to fix and I try to do it.

Of course once I clear the spyware, and possibly clean install their os, I try the command on my system, their system, my couple extra workstations and find it works and wander, where they went wrong.

I have also had sightlings go all over the place bar the icons they should or get impatient I am navigating slowly to where I need instead of rappidly moving toward it and clicking randomly.

So in some cases its better to be instructing the sightling rather than the other way round.

One of the worst half screen readers is my dad.

At least once a year he loads spyware and other junk on his system because he is trying to follow what should be a simple instruction.

But I guess its the generation.

My now dead grandpa never caught up with computers and my aunt while she knows enough about work stuff and office would panic if windows didn't start with the network working.

She doesn't want to learn either though.

There are those sorts of people about to instruct us to.

So for a beginner, you need to know simple things, like double click translates to enter.

Single click of left could be space, right click is the applications key or shift f10, etc.

All those shaped icons like envelopes and corners just don't work, etc, etc, etc.

In fact even if you are not sure, even if you don't ever want to rtfm like I hardly do, at least read a simple shortcut list of required keys before asking for or instructing and you may get about unless the program is visual in nature.

I learned things through trial and error.

So radio buttons are buttons you can check and uncheck, checkboxes are boxes, combo boxes and list boxes are just boxes with lists in them.

And some stuff doesn't translate at all.

Instructions are generally fine from a sighted person, but depends what they are, those can be subjective.




On 31/12/2020 9:43 am, Gene wrote:
There is no inherent reason a sighted person can't provide
instructions that correspond to the way blind people generally do
things on computers or anywhere else. It depends what they know.


Conversely, and this is being overlooked in the discussion, blind
people who know how can provide instructions similar to what a sighted
person would provide for a sighted person.


for example, I could tell a sighted person to open a program, click on
the tools menu or the gear icon, if I knew that is how it is shown,
and it usually is, then click options, and so on.


The ability to do this means that a blind person understands how to
apply sighted instructions to using a computer as a blind person
usually does. If blind people know something about translating
sighted instructions into blind procedures, they will be able to help
themselves learn more programs and can often follow instructions on
how to work with this or that feature in programs they already use
that are written for sighted people.


If a blind person is interested and wants to learn these things, the
benefits may be meaningful to the person. Many blind people only use
programs that have specific instructional material for blind people
and their interests don't go further. But its important that this
other side of the discussion be pointed out.


Gene

On 12/30/2020 2:19 PM, Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I
believe.

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@comcast.net> wrote:
Very well said.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer
Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
#adminnotice



Hello Arlene,



I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem
to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".



What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge
people
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not
judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between
us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a
community,
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway,
my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that
makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on
this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of
the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless
of your
physical characteristics.



For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without
regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge
everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus
please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that
make us
unique.



Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.



On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com
<mailto:nedster66@gmail.com> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I
thought
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You
know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind
user.
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The
person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that
screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a
green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us
blind
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt
like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.
Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said
the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.



Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows
10



From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
#adminnotice



Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and
particularly
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of
the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am
trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do
know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked
with
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired
for
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most
part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the
fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone
else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it
makes
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS
ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House
Paul Ryan
and John Boehner










--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for
Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)
(393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.



Thank you, and have a great day!












Mike Capelle <mcap@...>
 

We all live in a sighted world.


 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 03:19 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, Ibelieve.
-
And that's how I read it, and particularly in reference to my avoiding "point and click" terminology when speaking to a blind and visually impaired audience, which I try to be very mindful to avoid.

Yet, Gene is correct is his observation that it is every bit as incumbent on blind users to have the mental tools at their disposal to "translate" a point and click instruction set to keyboard user equivalent.  When I tutor, this is something I teach when necessary.  Most of my students have been individuals who are formerly sighted, so they implicitly understand "point and click" style in instruction sets, and what I teach them is not only how to use a screen reader, per se, but what the translations from sighted-focused terminology to keyboard-focused terminology is.  They should, at the end, be able to look at an instruction set written for either the sighted or the blind and be equally comfortable following either.

As Mike Capelle noted, "We all live in a sighted world," and I don't think there's a single reader here who does not understand what he meant.  Like the old Palmolive commercial:  You're soaking in it.

While any given individual can make any choices they see fit, choices have consequences.  And if you're a blind computer user who, by choice, cuts yourself off from "sighted centric" instructions, you are cutting yourself off from the vast majority of material out there that can answer many questions you have.

I do not rewrite the instruction sets I have written for keyboard-focused audiences when I post same in sighted-centric venues.  I make a point of saying, "This was written with blind individuals in mind, and is keyboard focused, but you [the random sighted user] should easily be able to translate these to using the mouse."  I fully expect that this should work in the opposite direction, too, and make no apology for that.  I do offer pointers to certain sighted-centric instructions, not written by me, because they're good instruction sets.  I don't think that it's impossible to know that, "click on," means "gain focus on and select," "double click on, " means, "activate by your preferred method, etc.  It's a basic skill that anyone who wishes to expand their own computer use expertise should acquire.  And heaven knows there are a very great number of members other than myself who can assist if you happen to be someone in the translation acquisition phase of your own education.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Arlene
 

I said what I said. I didn’t know Brian was sighted. I really thought he was blind like us. Now come to think of it. Blind, deaf or whatever you may be we all have computer skills.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Nimer Jaber
Sent: December 30, 2020 11:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hello Arlene,

 

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian doesn't sound "blind".

 

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community, the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful, unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list. We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day, every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your physical characteristics.

 

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us unique.

 

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box. Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Rosemarie and Arlene,

           I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

           But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not germane to the conversation it just isn't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats.


Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970) (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

 

Thank you, and have a great day!