Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice


 

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 06:43 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
Can't hurt to be familiar with some advanced search techniques like using quotes for an exact phrase match, the plus sign to indicate that a search term must be present or a minus sign to indicate not to return any results with that search term
-
And what you've listed above are probably the most advanced search operators that many will ever use.  The only other one I'd add, which is used very seldom but is really, really handy at times, is the site: operator.  It allows you to limit your search to a specific website or part of a website, depending on the URL you put after the colon (and you don't need the http:// or https://).

I still use quoted phrases for exact matches the most frequently, but will also use the minus operator to eliminate results I don't want.  And that's not just in web search engines, but also other searches like Amazon when looking for a product.  If you're dealing with, say, a specific smartphone you will virtually always get hundreds of results for cases or screen protectors for it as well.  A search using, for instance:

"Galaxy S10" -case -"screen protector"

gets rid of scads of unwanted results.  Of course, if all one wanted was screen protectors, but not cases for a given model, changing that minus to a plus in front of "screen protector" would get you that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Can't hurt to be familiar with some advanced search techniques like using quotes for an exact phrase match, the plus sign to indicate that a search term must be present or a minus sign to indicate not to return any results with that search term, but I agree that search engines today are much smarter than they were when I first started using Yahoo in 1995. Unless what you're searching for is extremely unusual or esoteric, most folks won't need to know the advanced techniques for general use.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Grossoehme
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 1:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

Good Afternoon;: I will disagree with you 100% here on your search skills. The quotation mark is an automatic with a lot of search engines. You must like Googgle following you to use that search engine. The next thing is the question of what are you going to do it your information is case sensitive and you don't use upper and lower case to find the information. There are times that you could be searching for hours if you don't use all the search tools.

Dave


On 1/4/2021 6:34 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it
should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied
years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and
is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know
what used to be taught for defining a search in detail. I never use
boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks. I just type
in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences
if they wish. I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm
Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube. I might search for
something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word.
My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of
typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define
something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two
added or changed to get good results. For example, if I type a name
of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might
have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of
the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to
search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't
involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might
be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search.
there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would
have no objection to being expected to do searches. They either
already can or could do good searches generally with a little
instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have
good computer skills. Those people I would probably let ask questions
and not make an issue of searching.



Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message. I tried searching for
its beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by
separator and I found the start of it immediately below the separator.
. I tried other ways and I got close to the message as well or right
to the message text when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that
is perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do and
don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to configure
them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando










 

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 04:05 PM, Dave Grossoehme wrote:
I will disagree with you 100% here on your search skills.
-
And you would be wrong, and Gene would be correct.  Virtually everything you describe is not now, and has never been, the case for web searching.  If you are not going about something in "the usual way" you will get unusual results.  And, as Gene has already noted, the ability of search engines to use "fuzzy logic" means that, other than using quoted strings when you want an absolutely exact match (but not case sensitive, in most cases), a natural language question will work if one chooses to use one.

Web searching has only become easier, and far, far more intuitive, over the decades.  And anyone can acquire the basics for doing them with ease.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Gene
 

You yourself said in an earlier message that you have trouble searching. It may be because you are making searches far too complicated. You can disagree and perhaps you are disaggreeing because searching may have been more complicated in the nineties. But I'm telling you from years of experience with searching well, that your ideas of search are completely wrong. I don't know what you mean about quotation marks being a default in Google. they aren't. Searches are not case sensative by default. You may be able to make a search case sensative, I've never checked but as I said they aren't by default. and it usually doesn't matter. Search engines these days, the sophisticated ones are smart enough to find something without customizing searches with such things as quotation marks and boolean operators. There are rare times when I do a search and I get lots of poor matches when I may use quotation marks. But most of the time, I can search for the name of a book, for example no quotes no anything other than the name and if I want to see reviews, I add the word review or reviews and I almost always get good results. Try it and see. Just write what you want to search for and see what happens.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Grossoehme
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 3:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

Good Afternoon;: I will disagree with you 100% here on your search
skills. The quotation mark is an automatic with a lot of search
engines. You must like Googgle following you to use that search
engine. The next thing is the question of what are you going to do it
your information is case sensitive and you don't use upper and lower
case to find the information. There are times that you could be
searching for hours if you don't use all the search tools.

Dave


On 1/4/2021 6:34 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know what used to be taught for defining a search in detail. I never use boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks. I just type in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences if they wish. I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube. I might search for something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word. My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two added or changed to get good results. For example, if I type a name of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search. there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would have no objection to being expected to do searches. They either already can or could do good searches generally with a little instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have good computer skills. Those people I would probably let ask questions and not make an issue of searching.



Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message. I tried searching for its
beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by separator and I
found the start of it immediately below the separator. . I tried other
ways and I got close to the message as well or right to the message text
when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that is
perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do
and don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to
configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando










Gene
 

I don't know if we can discuss your search problems well without knowing how you search, what sort of phrases you use, whether you use things like quotation marks, etc.

Good search engines today are consumer products and make searching as easy as possible. These days, you don't have to know much to get good results but if people do certain things such as misuse quotation marks, they may get poor results.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Grossoehme
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 2:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

Good Afternoon: As far as the search problem I have a computer user
from back in the early '90s. I still have problems in searching. I
have gone so far as changing search engines if I can't find the exact
item that I am hunting for.

Dave


On 1/4/2021 5:29 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 06:23 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I
would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or
archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on
what you're looking for in a very great many cases. That would be a
great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and
improve such skills.
My frustrations with online searches are not with phrasing my queries in order to get hits; I usually get hundreds to thousands of results. My issue is in finding the relevant information on the pages for each activated result. Microsoft's forums, the Super User forums and many others are so cluttered with header information, upvote/downvote crap and ads for driver checking software that I often find myself no better informed after navigating those pages by links, text, controls, articles, block quotes, etc.
I can only imagine how frustrated a beginner would feel when queering Google for, say, the key command to begin playback from the beginning of a file in VLC. The documentation includes no complete hotkey list, and the hotkey dialogue itself is horribly inaccessible.. Videoland's VLC forums are full of exhausting threads and subthreads lasting pages and pages.
But, I happened to mention this to a sighted friend the other day. He did a Google search and it took even him nearly ten minutes to ascertain that the relevant key command is nothing more than the letter P.
Now, come on, we shouldn't have to read through dozens of forum threads to learn that. This is what frustrates people; the signal-to-noise ratio during online searches is very low. I would want to type "VLC Key Commands" into Google and get a hit saying, "Complete List of VLC Key Commands" or shortcut keys. I don't want to read dozens of forum thread to ascertain a single key command.
If you like, I can figure out how to export in some form my last hundred Google searches. Choose, say, three, and time yourself, of course working only with a keyboard and screen reader, to see how long it takes for the relevant question to be answered. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed.


Orlando





Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Afternoon;:  I will disagree with you 100% here on your search skills.  The quotation mark is an automatic with a lot of search engines.  You must like Googgle following you to use that search engine.  The next thing is the question of what are you going to do it your information is case sensitive and you don't use upper and lower case to find the information.  There are times that you could be searching for hours if you don't use all the search tools.

Dave

On 1/4/2021 6:34 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know what used to be taught for defining a search in detail.  I never use boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks.  I just type in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences if they wish.  I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube.  I might search for something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word.  My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two added or changed to get good results.  For example, if I type a name of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search.  there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would have no objection to being expected to do searches.  They either already can or could do good searches generally with a little instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have good computer skills.  Those people I would probably let ask questions and not make an issue of searching.



Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message.  I tried searching for its
beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by separator and I
found the start of it immediately below the separator.   .  I tried other
ways and I got close to the message as well or right to the message text
when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that is
perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do
and don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to
configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando









Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Afternoon:  Being Jaws and NVDA use different programming languages, it doesn't make it difficult to have the same outcomes.  Jaws uses the C programming Language as far as I know. NVDA usesPython Computer programming language.

Dave

On 1/4/2021 5:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Perhaps one of the developers will address the question.  I wonder if there is a technical reason for this, such as how Windows provides information to screen-readers.  Older screen-readers, such as JAWS, I believe, use a different method for getting a lot of the kinds of information you are discussing.

Another thing which would be very useful and it would be very important to some people would be the ability to create what JAWS calls frames, certain parts of the screen that will automatically take actions under certain conditions or that you can have read by issuing a command.  and regarding having things read, the frame can be set to automatically read under certain conditions.

I suspect there is some sort of technical limitation on the way NVDA gets information because this is a feature of enough importance that I suspect it would have been implemented if it could have been.  However, I may be wrong about both and I hope those with the technical knowledge discuss those questions.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:06 PM 1/4/2021, Chris Smart wrote:
Betsy, have you tried the NVDA basic training?
I'm going through it now, after using another screen reader for
many years, and I find it to be quite well written and organized,
with lots of little exercises to actually work through.

I know we're on the NVDA list. But I may as well come clean. NVDA
will never be my primary screen reader until it gives me control over
the exact order of spoken elements. Every other screen reader
provides this. If I'm going through a list of check boxes and want to
hear which ones are checked, I need the state spoken either first or
right after the control type, not at the end of its field data. For
another example, if I'm in a dialogue where I know that its only
combo edit box changes a particular setting, I need my screen reader
to announce the control type first while I quickly tab between
fields. How this has managed to get through so many of NVDA versions
without being addressed, with the cooperation of so many blind users,
is baffling.


Orlando









Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Afternoon:  As far as the search problem I have a computer user from back in the early '90s.  I still have problems in searching.  I have gone so far as changing search engines if I can't find the exact item that I am hunting for.

Dave

On 1/4/2021 5:29 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 06:23 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I
would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or
archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on
what you're looking for in a very great many cases.  That would be a
great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and
improve such skills.
My frustrations with online searches are not with phrasing my queries in order to get hits; I usually get hundreds to thousands of results. My issue is in finding the relevant information on the pages for each activated result. Microsoft's forums, the Super User forums and many others are so cluttered with header information, upvote/downvote crap and ads for driver checking software that I often find myself no better informed after navigating those pages by links, text, controls, articles, block quotes, etc.
I can only imagine how frustrated a beginner would feel when queering Google for, say, the key command to begin playback from the beginning of a file in VLC. The documentation includes no complete hotkey list, and the hotkey dialogue itself is horribly inaccessible.. Videoland's VLC forums are full of exhausting threads and subthreads lasting pages and pages.
But, I happened to mention this to a sighted friend the other day. He did a Google search and it took even him nearly ten minutes to ascertain that the relevant key command is nothing more than the letter P.
Now, come on, we shouldn't have to read through dozens of forum threads to learn that. This is what frustrates people; the signal-to-noise ratio during online searches is very low. I would want to type "VLC Key Commands" into Google and get a hit saying, "Complete List of VLC Key Commands" or shortcut keys. I don't want to read dozens of forum thread to ascertain a single key command.
If you like, I can figure out how to export in some form my last hundred Google searches. Choose, say, three, and time yourself, of course working only with a keyboard and screen reader, to see how long it takes for the relevant question to be answered. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed.


Orlando




Betsy Grenevitch
 

I really do not have time to join a chat like that. I already have difficulty staying up with my email some days as it is so will just see if what I learn from the course I have begun today will give me what I need. Thanks for the offer, though.


On 1/5/2021 6:59 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 02:51 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
Brian, I would love to have that type of training. I would need the time to be able to write down specific notes and steps to follow so I could relate to them later as they will not be remembered
-
Then I would really, really encourage you to engage in the Chat Subgroup where you can engage in Q&A to your heart's content, and ask at your own pace.

My only suggestion is that you give specific requests, e.g., Can someone walk me through ordering an item on Amazon?, rather than something like, "Can someone teach me how to shop online?"   The second question is just too broad to be answered, as sites vary wildly as to the exact details of their interfaces, while single sites like Amazon tend to be as close to 100% consistent as they can be, regardless of what you're ordering.

Were this to be an accurate example, and the thing you want to order is not private in nature, even stating what that is can be really helpful for anyone who wants to assist.  You can give far more exact descriptions of what the person who's asking will actually encounter.

It has been my experience that once someone has confidence on how to do a defined thing in a specific venue, they can generalize to a related thing in that specific venue relatively easily.  And it's far easier to teach or guide when you as the teacher or guide know what the destination is.

Here are the addresses for the NVDA Chat Subgroup, which allows discussion of anything within the bounds of civil discourse, not just NVDA:

To join:  chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io

To post:  chat@nvda.groups.io

To unsubscribe:  chat+unsubscribe@nvda.groups.io

To receive a message containing the group description, and a list of these commands:  chat+help@nvda.groups.io

To stop receiving messages via email (you may still read messages on the Web):  chat+nomail@nvda.groups.io

This can also be used to put a vacation stop on group messages, then use one of the addresses below to resume delivery in the format of your choice.

To receive each group messages individually:  chat+single@nvda.groups.io

This is the default delivery unless you send a message to one of the addresses that follows.

To receive group messages in an HTML formatted digest:  chat+fulldigest@nvda.groups.io

To receive group messages in a plain text digest:  chat+digest@nvda.groups.io

To receive a daily summary instead of individual messages:  chat+summary@nvda.groups.io

To receive only special messages:  chat+special@nvda.groups.io

To contact the group owner(s):  chat+owner@nvda.groups.io 
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 02:51 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
Brian, I would love to have that type of training. I would need the time to be able to write down specific notes and steps to follow so I could relate to them later as they will not be remembered
-
Then I would really, really encourage you to engage in the Chat Subgroup where you can engage in Q&A to your heart's content, and ask at your own pace.

My only suggestion is that you give specific requests, e.g., Can someone walk me through ordering an item on Amazon?, rather than something like, "Can someone teach me how to shop online?"   The second question is just too broad to be answered, as sites vary wildly as to the exact details of their interfaces, while single sites like Amazon tend to be as close to 100% consistent as they can be, regardless of what you're ordering.

Were this to be an accurate example, and the thing you want to order is not private in nature, even stating what that is can be really helpful for anyone who wants to assist.  You can give far more exact descriptions of what the person who's asking will actually encounter.

It has been my experience that once someone has confidence on how to do a defined thing in a specific venue, they can generalize to a related thing in that specific venue relatively easily.  And it's far easier to teach or guide when you as the teacher or guide know what the destination is.

Here are the addresses for the NVDA Chat Subgroup, which allows discussion of anything within the bounds of civil discourse, not just NVDA:

To join:  chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io

To post:  chat@nvda.groups.io

To unsubscribe:  chat+unsubscribe@nvda.groups.io

To receive a message containing the group description, and a list of these commands:  chat+help@nvda.groups.io

To stop receiving messages via email (you may still read messages on the Web):  chat+nomail@nvda.groups.io

This can also be used to put a vacation stop on group messages, then use one of the addresses below to resume delivery in the format of your choice.

To receive each group messages individually:  chat+single@nvda.groups.io

This is the default delivery unless you send a message to one of the addresses that follows.

To receive group messages in an HTML formatted digest:  chat+fulldigest@nvda.groups.io

To receive group messages in a plain text digest:  chat+digest@nvda.groups.io

To receive a daily summary instead of individual messages:  chat+summary@nvda.groups.io

To receive only special messages:  chat+special@nvda.groups.io

To contact the group owner(s):  chat+owner@nvda.groups.io 
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


 

Thats a hard question.

What is your opinion of access in general?

Mine is that the program in question is fully usable, with readable documentation at minimal in a structured accessible pdf or failing that html with the right headings.

Daisy would be nice but for all practical purposes a standard html document is what I'd go for any day or text, word, etc whatever.

The program must have keyboard shortcuts, settings that are easy to understand, menus or heck I guess ribbons that are easy to understand though I am a menu kind a guy.

If its a universal app, its web interface should be easy to navigate, with buttons which are labeled and alt text in the right places.

Self voicing is an option but having the ability to run something like tolque and run sapi and screen reader support would be nice.

Having actual reader access with an addon like nvda or jaws I guess would be nice, but if it uses standard controls then its going to work.

No customised styles, fonts or extras would be nice but again if its labeled then fine.

If it had the same interface no matter what system or configuration is also a pluss.

I don't need a dumbed down interface for the blind, unless there is a simple and advanced mode for various things and I can easily switch.

Most of this is simple stuff.

Look at ccleaner for example.

Button labeling and checkboxes were the simple thing, settings with labeled controls deciding what you chose, shortcut keys without conflicts.

An easy to understand system.

Would I have liked a dumbed down interface which had spaciffic things for the blind, probably not.

With accessibility you really want something to be accessible or rather usable to every user.

That means you shouldn't need nvda addons or jaws scripts to work with it.

You shouldn't need spaciffic libraries to work with it and screen reader/sapi support.

You shouldn't need dumbed down interfaces.

As long as its designed right then it should all just work.

Of course a lot of stuff uses coding engines and generators and those may or may not do everything or put things in you are not aware of.

This aint a perfect world though, so as long as its got standard controles and its all labeled and easy to configure and use thats about what I'd expect.

Customised shortcuts and sound notifications especially if there is a custom soundscheme and the ability to add extra sound schemes where appropriate is also good.

Another thing is that once you have an interface, try to keep it the same or at least keep every new interface if it needs extras the same standard as the old one.

CCleaner was originally fully accessible.

Then it got changed, then it got put back.

There are a few plusses.

Its not a given but right now anything universal will use a web component, so if the web bits work generally the rest will work enough to be used.

If its chromeum based there is a chance it will work to.

Of course you will want to adjust things but still.

I have not seen any programs actually holding your hand as such lately.

On 6/01/2021 10:57 am, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
Hi.  I think, really, that the question that should be asked is:

to what point does the need for accessibility borders onto the need to be spoilt and spoon fed, isn't it?  Cheers!

On 6/1/2021 2:37 am, tim wrote:
So you mean like how Microsoft is doing with VS code?
Guess the program-l list has to give up its Microsoft developers on the list to. After all Microsoft only let them join to see how the blind use there product.


On 1/4/2021 3:49 PM, Gene wrote:
It isn't our own language.  Some sighted people use the keyboard.  However, in this era, when everything is defined as a right, requiring manufacturers to produce instructions specifically for blind people is not something I would advocate.  Blind people shouldn't expect to have everything done for such a small group.  You might be able to argue that manuals should have versions written for blind people since in the sighted versions, they use pictures and diagrams and icons, but beyond a certain point, blind people need to take responsibility for what they can do and know.

I have no objection to tutorials being produced to teach blind people how to use programs using terminology and descriptions generally used by blind people, but at what point does this right end?

Should a designer of shareware or freeware be required to have instructions written for blind people if his program is used by a lot of blind people? Are you advocating that every help topic regarding Windows and Microsoft Office have a blindness version?

If a specialized piece of software has one-hundred blind users in America, should the developer be required to have instructions using the keyboard for such a small user base even if a lot more sighted people use it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 1:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 12:45 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions
by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the
paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know,
implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone
who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just
because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd
likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name
(or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all,
perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
Windows is completely translated into dozens of
languages. When Chinese or Japanese speakers do
tech support for their compatriots, they don't
use English terms for Windows elements because
those elements have all been translated into
their languages. While Hindi or Hebrew speakers
understand that they must know English in order
to talk about Windows with non-Indians or
Israelis, they aren't burdened with the task of
learning English just to use Windows.
This is a good analogy because we as blind people
have allowed ourselves be bamboozled out of
rights that all non-English speakers have. Every
software manufacturer knows that if they don't
produce translated versions, they won't sell
product to non-English speakers. Yet, no software
manufacture--large or small--has been made to
feel similar pressure about producing (for lack
of a better word) blind versions or translations.
This is because non-English speakers petition
software manufacturers to produce translated
versions. Those who know English even offer to do
these translations for free. Whereas, we have
people among us insisting that our language is
provincial, inferior and the primary reason we
keep getting "left behind". Sighted Spanish and Portuguese speakers

don't get "left behind" for being unable to use
Windows in English. Microsoft has never
arrogantly maintained that they must learn
English in order to use Windows because that
position would constitute economic suicide. Only
us blind people have been ingrained with such
self-loathing that we would ridiculously insist,
when communicating with each other, to use
exclusively sighted terms such as points, clicks
and icons, when we have a perfectly functional
keyboard-oriented language of our own.
Orlando Enrique Fiol















 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 02:43 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
Please realize when you have expectations for your group members to be able to perform, that for some us, it may not always be possible because of things like this.
-
You know, I don't think I have ever said, ever, anything that would be counter to this.  There are exception cases to "the typical" all the time.

I can't win here.  If I try to cover all the bases it becomes hideously long, hard to follow, and the central points disappear.  When I do what I think appropriate, and that is to address "the general case," many seem to think it's an edict that must be applied to everyone, equally, without any consideration of other factors.  It isn't.

Far too often my own writing is harder to follow than it might be because I'm trying to cover far too many bases.  If anything, I am trying to make an effort to avoid a litany of exceptions and caveats, which I definitely recognize, and focus on the general case.  Any one of us can play the, "But what if?," game such that it never ends.

And I hasten to say here, Betsy, that all of the above is in no way aimed at you, personally, but is triggered by your observation.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

Hi.  I think, really, that the question that should be asked is:

to what point does the need for accessibility borders onto the need to be spoilt and spoon fed, isn't it?  Cheers!

On 6/1/2021 2:37 am, tim wrote:
So you mean like how Microsoft is doing with VS code?
Guess the program-l list has to give up its Microsoft developers on the list to. After all Microsoft only let them join to see how the blind use there product.


On 1/4/2021 3:49 PM, Gene wrote:
It isn't our own language.  Some sighted people use the keyboard.  However, in this era, when everything is defined as a right, requiring manufacturers to produce instructions specifically for blind people is not something I would advocate.  Blind people shouldn't expect to have everything done for such a small group.  You might be able to argue that manuals should have versions written for blind people since in the sighted versions, they use pictures and diagrams and icons, but beyond a certain point, blind people need to take responsibility for what they can do and know.

I have no objection to tutorials being produced to teach blind people how to use programs using terminology and descriptions generally used by blind people, but at what point does this right end?

Should a designer of shareware or freeware be required to have instructions written for blind people if his program is used by a lot of blind people? Are you advocating that every help topic regarding Windows and Microsoft Office have a blindness version?

If a specialized piece of software has one-hundred blind users in America, should the developer be required to have instructions using the keyboard for such a small user base even if a lot more sighted people use it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 1:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 12:45 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions
by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the
paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know,
implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone
who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just
because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd
likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name
(or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all,
perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
Windows is completely translated into dozens of
languages. When Chinese or Japanese speakers do
tech support for their compatriots, they don't
use English terms for Windows elements because
those elements have all been translated into
their languages. While Hindi or Hebrew speakers
understand that they must know English in order
to talk about Windows with non-Indians or
Israelis, they aren't burdened with the task of
learning English just to use Windows.
This is a good analogy because we as blind people
have allowed ourselves be bamboozled out of
rights that all non-English speakers have. Every
software manufacturer knows that if they don't
produce translated versions, they won't sell
product to non-English speakers. Yet, no software
manufacture--large or small--has been made to
feel similar pressure about producing (for lack
of a better word) blind versions or translations.
This is because non-English speakers petition
software manufacturers to produce translated
versions. Those who know English even offer to do
these translations for free. Whereas, we have
people among us insisting that our language is
provincial, inferior and the primary reason we
keep getting "left behind". Sighted Spanish and Portuguese speakers

don't get "left behind" for being unable to use
Windows in English. Microsoft has never
arrogantly maintained that they must learn
English in order to use Windows because that
position would constitute economic suicide. Only
us blind people have been ingrained with such
self-loathing that we would ridiculously insist,
when communicating with each other, to use
exclusively sighted terms such as points, clicks
and icons, when we have a perfectly functional
keyboard-oriented language of our own.
Orlando Enrique Fiol












Betsy Grenevitch
 

Brian, I would love to have that type of training. I would need the time to be able to write down specific notes and steps to follow so I could relate to them later as they will not be remembered (refer to my most recent post before this one).


Please let me know what we need to arrange to make this training possible.


I would also love to have training using NVDA of how to feel comfortable navigating a site such as NV Access and purchasing something. I am one of those that was mentioned the other day of doing something wrong and not being able to get out of it. I have always been a little fearful of that but with this memory situation that fear has only become worse. This is why I try to write down what I will hear when certain steps are taken or situations arise.

I desire to become more independent in situations like this in case my daughter is not here to help as she does now.


Brian, I think I mentioned the other day that I have appreciated your help in the past.



On 1/4/2021 6:23 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 05:57 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
I am so technologically challenged that most manuals are not written in a vocabulary or step order that I am able to follow.
-
And you're far from alone in that.  Believe me, even for computer geeks there is an awful lot of documentation that leaves a very great deal to be desired.

Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on what you're looking for in a very great many cases.  That would be a great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and improve such skills.

It's impossible to get things such that you will likely get the one and only answer that's the one you prefer, but at least you can get something that will allow you to plow through the minimum number of search results to get maximum information.  It's an art form where, when teaching it, I try to teach people to "aim for the middle by being as specific as one reasonably can," then either becoming less specific if you get nothing or next to nothing, or supply a few more specific terms in the search if you're inundated by many thousands of results.  You, and anyone, can develop the skill that allows you to turn a fire hose down to a syringe and any volume in between.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Betsy Grenevitch
 

Chris, thank you for mentioning this course. I may have heard about it in the past but had forgotten about it. I just purchased it and plan on going through it.


Another thing that has not been discussed here is those with memory problems. The reason I bring this up is that I am one of those in that category. They know it is not Alzheimer's but otherwise it is not diagnosed because I have been told the eyes are needed for most of the tests and I do not have those. The point I am getting to is that if I have not done something on the computer, sometimes for even just a few days, I totally forget how to do it. I am also finding out that I panic more if I cannot find something I am searching for in a short matter of time. I also am finding it more difficult to learn auditorily. I am finding that I need to write a lot of computer tasks down step by step listing what I will hear with each step that I take. I realize that there will be a day when I will no longer be able to use a computer to do anything.

If I am not careful, I am also finding it difficult to find where I put notes for different things on my notetaker. I am really having to be more specific with my file names in order to find steps for different situations.


Please realize when you have expectations for your group members to be able to perform, that for some us, it may not always be possible because of things like this.

On 1/4/2021 6:06 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
Betsy, have you tried the NVDA basic training?


I'm going through it now, after using another screen reader for many years, and I find it to be quite well written and organized, with lots of little exercises to actually work through.





--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


tim
 

So you mean like how Microsoft is doing with VS code?
Guess the program-l list has to give up its Microsoft developers on the list to. After all Microsoft only let them join to see how the blind use there product.

On 1/4/2021 3:49 PM, Gene wrote:
It isn't our own language.  Some sighted people use the keyboard. However, in this era, when everything is defined as a right, requiring manufacturers to produce instructions specifically for blind people is not something I would advocate.  Blind people shouldn't expect to have everything done for such a small group.  You might be able to argue that manuals should have versions written for blind people since in the sighted versions, they use pictures and diagrams and icons, but beyond a certain point, blind people need to take responsibility for what they can do and know.
I have no objection to tutorials being produced to teach blind people how to use programs using terminology and descriptions generally used by blind people, but at what point does this right end?
Should a designer of shareware or freeware be required to have instructions written for blind people if his program is used by a lot of blind people? Are you advocating that every help topic regarding Windows and Microsoft Office have a blindness version?
If a specialized piece of software has one-hundred blind users in America, should the developer be required to have instructions using the keyboard for such a small user base even if a lot more sighted people use it?
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 1:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
At 12:45 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions
by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the
paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know,
implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone
who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just
because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd
likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name
(or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all,
perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
Windows is completely translated into dozens of
languages. When Chinese or Japanese speakers do
tech support for their compatriots, they don't
use English terms for Windows elements because
those elements have all been translated into
their languages. While Hindi or Hebrew speakers
understand that they must know English in order
to talk about Windows with non-Indians or
Israelis, they aren't burdened with the task of
learning English just to use Windows.
This is a good analogy because we as blind people
have allowed ourselves be bamboozled out of
rights that all non-English speakers have. Every
software manufacturer knows that if they don't
produce translated versions, they won't sell
product to non-English speakers. Yet, no software
manufacture--large or small--has been made to
feel similar pressure about producing (for lack
of a better word) blind versions or translations.
This is because non-English speakers petition
software manufacturers to produce translated
versions. Those who know English even offer to do
these translations for free. Whereas, we have
people among us insisting that our language is
provincial, inferior and the primary reason we
keep getting "left behind". Sighted Spanish and Portuguese speakers
don't get "left behind" for being unable to use
Windows in English. Microsoft has never
arrogantly maintained that they must learn
English in order to use Windows because that
position would constitute economic suicide. Only
us blind people have been ingrained with such
self-loathing that we would ridiculously insist,
when communicating with each other, to use
exclusively sighted terms such as points, clicks
and icons, when we have a perfectly functional
keyboard-oriented language of our own.
Orlando Enrique Fiol


 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 12:37 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
If you listened to lurkers more and pontificated less
-
If you can tell me how to listen to lurkers, please do.  Since lurkers, by definition, lurk and don't speak, that's a conundrum of epic proportions.

I'll gladly cop to pontificating, and even perhaps more than necessary in many instances, but this whole topic has been awash in pontification from many sources, one of which is yourself.

By the way, to be abundantly clear with regard to excuses, I am not saying that you're making them for yourself.  But when you come out with something like your temporal difference in processing speed argument, in direct response to my observation, "Why not? I do, your sighted friend does. Even with the additional challenge, you (the generic blind you) are not granted special dispensation from plowing through results, many of which may be of limited or no use,"  I want you to explain to me how that doesn't read as excusing people from their obligation to do what needs to be done.  You are saying two diametrically opposite things when you object as you did to that observation, yet in the next breath agree wholeheartedly about the obligation to do so with, "Refusing to do something because it's too hard is predicated on the false premise that humans are only designed to do what comes easily."

And the idea that I'm waving away the complexities, rather than focusing on the core argument, is laughable.  You can give me a thousand examples of things that I'll agree with, but that I know to be uncommon.  I'm not looking at the outlier situations, but that big ol' hump in the middle of the bell curve.

Your desire to over-psychologize is duly noted, and largely dismissed.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 11:13 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Yes, it's slower and more arduous for blind individuals to deal with
many text based things. That is not, nor should ever be, considered
an excuse not to do so. And what you're offering is, indeed, an excuse.
Hardly, given my 23 years of largely self-taught computer education. Were I interested in excuses, I would have used them to get myself out of doing anything and everything uncomfortable or challenging. My trajectory speaks for itself in terms of excuse dismissal. Understanding people's reluctance to engage in certain tasks does not in any way exonerate them from having to do those tasks; it simply helps us understand where they are in order to give them the right kinds of motivations and tools to overcome their fears, trepidations, hesitations, past experiences, etc.

No one is simply allowed to say, "It's too hard, so someone else
should be expected to do the heavy lifting for me." That happens,
far too often, and I make no apology for saying so.
I'm the first to agree with you on that and many other scores. Refusing to do something because it's too hard is predicated on the false premise that humans are only designed to do what comes easily. Anyone who ponders how far we as a species have developed from our savage beginnings knows that enough of us have not shed away from what is difficult. However, the ability to overcome difficulties cannot be willed away by decreed fiat; a panoply of circumstances are involved. I like to think of them in terms of the basic book report questions we learned as children: who, what, when and how.
Who resistance usually involves low self-esteem stemming from family disfunction, trauma and long-term abuse. People with "who problems" fundamentally think they're unworthy or incapable of anything joyful or fulfilling because they've always been told they're no good and worthy of no joy. Therefore, helping someone with such problems involves refuting their ingrained beliefs and replacing them with other cognitive premises, E.G., creating inferior people is not in our Creator's best interests, nor does it glorify His work.
People with 'what" problems are often plagued by indecision between multiple options and usually talk themselves out of each one. They constantly fear making wrong decisions or taking wrong courses, worrying that their lives will be irrevocably set adrift. This again stems from disfunctional familial and social messages regarding decision-making. If someone is constantly put down for starting and not finishing things, or deciding to take up things that ultimately don't work out, their critical thinking ability is constantly called into question. These are people who fear every choice, from what to make for dinner to which option to choose in a configuration dialogue.
How people are usually unclear about how to accomplish things because no one has sat down with them and broken their desired goals down to tiny steps that they can accomplish. Such people know they should be doing X Y Z, but don't know how to start, or know only three out of ten steps. They fear feeling lost, being pressured to choose an option or demonstrate a skill when they can't yet do so. Therefore, their coping strategy is to as little as possible and expect as little as possible of themselves. This avoids situations in which they might feel lost, confused or uncertain of which path to choose.
When people never know whether now is the right time for anything. If they regret what they haven't done, now and even later are already too late. If they're contemplating doing something new, now is never the right time. They lack money, support, skills, devices, tools, etc. Helping these people involves proving to them that they can actually begin with what they have right now.
Finally, why people have trouble thinking for themselves because they've never been allowed to do so. Every facet of their lives has been prescripted and prescribed by others. They fundamentally feel they lack the authority over their own lives to make any decisions, even if they know their reasons are sound. Rather than come from inside them, every why must be externally furnished, and they wait around unable to act until others impose a why on them.
Given these archetypes, it's easy to see why so many folks on these lists post the same basic questions when they could easily find their own answers online. They fundamentally mistrust all their abilities to the point that any answers they generate are automatically incorrect. asking questions and interacting with list members is their reassurance that the prescribed steps are legitimate.
Others feel fundamentally unqualified to anything on devices other than what their instructors have taught them. If they know how to check email and surf the web, social media are out of the question. If they know how to write text documents, tables and charts intimidate them.
People constantly berated for their mistakes fear messing up and not knowing what to do next. They worry that their devices will freeze, that they'll lose speech, that online searches will infect their systems with malware and viruses, etc. Anything outside of their memorized procedures sends them into a panic. If they tab around and hear nothing, it's time to call 911. If they press a certain navigational key and nothing happens, they immediately assume they've done something wrong. They panic when they lose their places on web pages, when they can't move backwards or forwards between pages, when they get unlabeled graphics rather than useful text.
These people need to be taken to the precipices they fear most and taught that they won't die as a result. Unresponsive applications can be closed and restarted. Screen readers can be reloaded. Audio can be reinitialized. At worst, devices can be rebooted.
This is only a surface snapshot of what's involved in the seemingly simple act of posting basic questions to these lists.

Many of the questions asked here and on several other blind-centric
lists I frequent that repeat again and again and again are not, even
vaguely, in the class where anything beyond minutes of review would be
required to get an answer via a search.? I am sick to death of even
the implication that I make my frustrations plain because people are
asking questions that are of a complex nature or on features that are
seldom used or require tricky interactions.
On a group like this one, I have seen things asked that NVDA help
itself, in-program help, can answer in mere seconds if someone uses
it.? And if someone states they are a neophyte, I answer the actual
question and instruct on how to find it independently along with
related information later. These are not the people or instances
that make me want to reach out and throttle anyone. It's people who
have been around, and often posting moderately frequently, asking
simple questions that I absolutely know they have seen asked and
answered innumerable times, because I'm familiar with their names for
the duration of the time I've been participating or close to it.?
That's not OK, not with me, and never will be.
You clearly don't understand psychological paralysis. The recently sightless or overprotected blind assume that every single move forbodes danger. Every act without sighted supervision feels to them as though they're risking their very lives. One totally blind friend recently flew into a panic because she couldn't reinsert her microwave's spinning plate after washing it. I calmly told her to align it with the corresponding platen surface in the microwave, place the plate on it, push down and spin until it locked in place.
I could never tell such a person what to do if she lost audio on one of her devices, since, without audio feedback, she would be deathly afraid of making a huge mistake and ruining her device.
We take for granted a healthy attitude toward risk. We know how to get out of most situations and how not to get into the ones without escape routes. More important, we know how to forgive ourselves with good humor or sarcasm when disasters strike. I'm ashamed to admit how many times my registry experiments rendered my computers entirely unbootable, caused peripheral devices not to be recognized, caused basic programs not to load or unload correctly. Even then, I never thought my world had ended. Especially after proving to myself that I could do a clean Windows installation from absolute scratch, using nothing but Narrator, my doom and gloom drastically reduced. My option 0 is a bootable USB drive that loads Narrator and presents me with an installation screen within seconds. I usually use that flash drive for the standard salvage repairs: startup, system restore, command line, reset, etc. If none succeed, I reinstall.
I guarantee you, based on decades of conversations with hundreds of blind computer users, that most folks would throw up their hands at such times and wait for a sympathetic sightling to take their glorified brick to a charlatan ripoff artist (I mean, computer technician) who will hastily reinstall and reconfigure their device with absolutely no interest in, or regard for, their accessibility needs.
All that can be avoided.

My track record, in all respects, is abundantly clear and stands on
its own. I am happy to be taken to task for things I've actually
said, or done, or both.? I'm even OK with being taken to task when
what I have written could be construed in ways other than I'd
intended, as that's entirely my fault.
We should all aspire to such equanimity, since an intrinsic part of the communication process involves how the receiver interprets our messages. If too many receivers extract malevolence where none was intended, our delivery system is obviously faulty. On the other hand, if our receivers expose our malevolence, we need to work on our kindness modules.

One of the biggest of those, and I hasten to add that I am not
accusing you, specifically, on this one, is that I am somehow
short-tempered and unsupportive of those new to NVDA when it's clear
that this is the situation. I have not been. But I am also not
willing to presume that every new member here is a neophyte unless
they make that clear in some way. The fact is that most new members
are not, and never have been. Most joining lists like this have
years of screen reader and general computer use experience, and I will
always? presume that anyone coming in here is way more likely to know
the basics of a screen reader (not necessarily NVDA), how to use
email, how to browse the web, and how to perform a web search.? This
being 2021, and my having senior citizen clients who can handle the
basics of all of those things (both with and without vision), will
keep me convinced that this is not an unreasonable presumption.
People joining tech groups are very, very seldom "blank slates."? And
many egregious offenders with "simple questions" are those I know are
absolutely not inexperienced, and they should know better.


If you listened to lurkers more and pontificated less, you would be shocked by how little computer/screen-reader knowledge many members actually possess. I've seen posters insist that they can't invoke the JAWS option menus, exit their web browsers, open and close documents, even shut down their systems, all very basic computer skills. Some people out here don't know what every key on their keyboards does.
So, while a good bunch of us have been riding the range for decades, many have never even sat atop a stationary mechanical bull.
Orlando


 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:55 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
Seriously, whenever I try to activate notifications in the actions center, they disappear rather than open the webpages I know they should. Let's say I get a Youtube notification from a subscribed channel. I expect that pressing enter, space or a simulated left mouse click on the notification will cause my default web browser (Chrome) to open with the relevant video loaded. Instead, nothing happens. That's right. whether I press space, enter or simulate a left-click, nothing happens. All the actions center notifications have become little more to me than teasers for videos and news headlines I will never explore in depth as my sighted counterparts do by simply clicking those notifications.
-
First, I will tell you that your experience is not limited to you, or those using the keyboard.  The action center has always been flaky, at least for me.

Second, this is one of those situations where it's easier in many instances to use my literal ability to see what is, or is not, happening to solve an issue.  If, at some point, you have a long list of notifications in the action center, and we could arrange a Quick Assist session with a simultaneous phone call, I can see and listen to see if I can determine what a root cause might be.  It can sometimes be user error, but sometimes it's absolutely not.  But having actual examples, currently active, and observing what occurs is the best way for me to get a handle on why something may be falling through the cracks.  There are a number of people here who have "been there, done that" with me, because it was impossible for me to figure out what was actually happening (or not happening) sans certain visual cues that mean a great deal when I see 'em.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:55 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
The difference involves the temporal rate at which blind versus sighted users take in written verbal information. It i an irrefutable fact that visually scanning text with the naked eye is quicker than reading with speech at any rate. Just ask any reading comprehension or memory/retention specialist.
-
An area where, both from my academic background, and my clinical experience, I am more than familiar.

It's also irrelevant for the kinds of things I'm generally talking about, and even beyond.

Yes, it's slower and more arduous for blind individuals to deal with many text based things.  That is not, nor should ever be, considered an excuse not to do so.  And what you're offering is, indeed, an excuse.

No one is simply allowed to say, "It's too hard, so someone else should be expected to do the heavy lifting for me."  That happens, far too often, and I make no apology for saying so.

Many of the questions asked here and on several other blind-centric lists I frequent that repeat again and again and again are not, even vaguely, in the class where anything beyond minutes of review would be required to get an answer via a search.  I am sick to death of even the implication that I make my frustrations plain because people are asking questions that are of a complex nature or on features that are seldom used or require tricky interactions.

On a group like this one, I have seen things asked that NVDA help itself, in-program help, can answer in mere seconds if someone uses it.  And if someone states they are a neophyte, I answer the actual question and instruct on how to find it independently along with related information later.  These are not the people or instances that make me want to reach out and throttle anyone.  It's people who have been around, and often posting moderately frequently, asking simple questions that I absolutely know they have seen asked and answered innumerable times, because I'm familiar with their names for the duration of the time I've been participating or close to it.  That's not OK, not with me, and never will be.

My track record, in all respects, is abundantly clear and stands on its own.  I am happy to be taken to task for things I've actually said, or done, or both.  I'm even OK with being taken to task when what I have written could be construed in ways other than I'd intended, as that's entirely my fault.  But what I'm not OK with, and it's occurred on a number of occasions on this very topic, is having hypotheticals that have no connection to what I have said or have done, treated as though they're germane.

One of the biggest of those, and I hasten to add that I am not accusing you, specifically, on this one, is that I am somehow short-tempered and unsupportive of those new to NVDA when it's clear that this is the situation.  I have not been.  But I am also not willing to presume that every new member here is a neophyte unless they make that clear in some way.  The fact is that most new members are not, and never have been.  Most joining lists like this have years of screen reader and general computer use experience, and I will always  presume that anyone coming in here is way more likely to know the basics of a screen reader (not necessarily NVDA), how to use email, how to browse the web, and how to perform a web search.  This being 2021, and my having senior citizen clients who can handle the basics of all of those things (both with and without vision), will keep me convinced that this is not an unreasonable presumption.  People joining tech groups are very, very seldom "blank slates."  And many egregious offenders with "simple questions" are those I know are absolutely not inexperienced, and they should know better.
 
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Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel