NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
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Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...>
Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me" checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it, NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome. Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So what's the deal with checkboxes?
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Jackie
Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't. & it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a "clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create problems for us.
On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google --
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This would be the fault of the website builder. It would be best if you contacted them instead. It sometimes is much easier to have the web developer fix the issues.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler Zahnke Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 8:16 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me" checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it, NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome. Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So what's the deal with checkboxes?
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Gene
Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume
what the problem is and that it is improper design. Also, there may be
cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if
you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way. I
haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but
again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in
Google Chrome Yeah
well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't. & it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a "clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create problems for us. On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote: > Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google > Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me" > checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you > press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't > tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and > inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a > memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read > some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got > to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their > site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices > claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA > users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same > site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember > me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it, > NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This > was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as > accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and > screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said > "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on > them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations > on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome. > Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the > checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the > website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the > checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like > checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So > what's the deal with checkboxes? > > > > > > -- Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to: wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs & check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com
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Some browsers render things different per the instructions of the web devs, so both may be at fault here.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:01 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume what the problem is and that it is improper design. Also, there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way. I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?
Gene -----Original Message----- From: Jackie Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
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Jackie
Truthfully, I don't think the vast majority of web devs know the
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difference between clickable elements & checkboxes.
On 11/15/21, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
Some browsers render things different per the instructions of the web devs, --
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Another thing to remember is that these days a number of things are presented by CAPTCHA, and to be clear, not all CAPTCHAs are obscured, but they are used so that what is presented to a sighted user is not machine readable. Very often things like 2 factor authentication codes that are displayed on a computer as a string of digits is not actually that string of digits, but an image created based upon the string of digits. Of course, there are ways to make this accessible, but sometimes it's not done.
It is odd, though, in this case when using Firefox the screen reader can detect what needs to be announced when using a Chromium-based browser it cannot. It's not that this never happens, but using Jackie's correct terminology, generally when something is exposed for screen reader use that should, in theory, be independent of the web browser being used. But, we all know that certain web browsers can, on occasion, work much better with a given website, for whatever reason or multitude of reasons, than other web browsers do. I agree that this is most likely something to be solved by the site developers using consistently accessible coding conventions, and knowing which are and are not working across browsers. If you do contact this particular entity about the issue, be certain to tell them that, when using the same screen reader, the checkbox is announced only when using Firefox and not when using whatever other browser or browsers you've tried where it fails. And, if you want to make your case even stronger and help them out, if you have an example of the same sort of element that works in every web browser, point them directly to the URL where that one is presented. This gives them the ability to compare their code source to the code source for that page and see what differs in how that element is handled. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all. ~ John F. Kennedy
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On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Jackie wrote:
Truthfully, I don't think the vast majority of web devs know the difference between clickable elements & checkboxes.- Jackie, Even though his comment is meta-NVDA, I'll say not only is your observation accurate, but it's more than just checkboxes. In the last couple of years it's become all the rage to present links not with click through text or a navigation structure, but such that they look identical to a button to a sighted user. The only way I know that many of these are links instead of buttons is that I've accustomed myself to looking at what shows up in the browser status bar when I hover on them. For someone such as myself, who tutors those new to screen readers, imagine how insane it was when that practice started, unnanounced, and I'm saying, "Navigate to the {insert what's presented here} button and activate it," when it wasn't a button and if the button quick navigation was being used to try to "bounce over" to it you'd never land on it. Let us simply say that neither I, nor my students, were thrilled about this development. Even though I know about it, I'm still not. Masking one type of element as another is just not a good idea from purely a design perspective. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all. ~ John F. Kennedy
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Jackie
Exactly, Brian V. Sadly, I think a lot of web dev today is mostly
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drag, point, click, w/very little knowledge &/or expertise of the actual building blocks involved. & blind people using computers? They're *really* in the dark about that--pun fully intended. & furthermore, few give a rat's tail.
On 11/15/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Jackie wrote:- --
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Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...>
Well, then why doesn't NVDA say "clicked" when a clickable element is
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clicked? One time my focus was out of focus and my enter key didn't click it.
On 11/15/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Jackie wrote:-
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Jackie
Because if it's out of focus, NVDA doesnt know you wish to click it.
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It, like me, bombed telepathy 101. It's always good practice, if something doesn't work as expected, to use keystrokes like shift+backspace or NVDA+backspace to move focus to where it should be. Sometimes, even NVDA + f5 to refresh the site can help bring things back to rights.
On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
Well, then why doesn't NVDA say "clicked" when a clickable element is --
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On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 01:03 PM, Tyler Zahnke wrote:
Well, then why doesn't NVDA say "clicked" when a clickable element is clicked? One time my focus was out of focus and my enter key didn't- I truly do not know whether this behavior is by design or not as far as NVDA is concerned, or whether there may be a setting that would allow the announcement you seek. And while I understand why, when you're not focused on a clickable element and you attempt to activate (click) it, that doesn't work, that alone should be a big clue that your focus was off. If you try again, once you've confirmed focus, and it still doesn't activate then we're back to "it's a problem with the page design." There is no right or wrong as far as personal preferences as to how much or little auditory feedback about behavior you get from a screen reader, but I try to teach my students/clients not to rely on auditory feedback of the "clicked" type when, in the vast majority of cases, the actual behavior post activation tells you all you need to know. You can infer things, when all is working as it should, without these kinds of action confirmation feedback. You can also infer that all is not working as it should on those occasions where you need to do so. Both of those become second nature once you're used to using "what was the result of my action" as your metric as to whether a given action was taken or not. Some of this, though, may very well depend on whether you've always been blind or went blind later in life. Most of my clients are the latter, and the action confirmations drive them to distraction, particularly early on. They simply know that for example, if you've got something selected and hit CTRL + C, it is copied to the clipboard. There are the rare occasions where you may have accidentally deselected before hitting copy, but you'll know that when you go to paste, and the end result would still be you need to go back and select and copy again. There are a very large number of actions where, if you know you know the correct shortcut for them, that it's safe to take on faith have worked when what you do next serves as a confirmation that this prior step worked as expected or not. It's just a matter of getting used to looking at the result of step 2 as your confirmation that step 1 did what you thought it should. And for a skilled computer user, way more than 90% of the time, it will have. - Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all. ~ John F. Kennedy
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Gene
I am increasingly finding cases where Firefox either sees things or does
things that Chrome doesn’t when used with NVDA. I don’t use JAWS and my
demo is far too old to evaluate whether the same things occur. But I think
the question of whether Chrome-based browsers are working properly with sites in
terms of accessibility should be systematically addressed.
Here are two examples:
First is this article from The New York Times;.
If you are at the top of the page and press s to move by
separator, you will immediately move to cards giving background information on
the story.
In Firefox, you see, at the end of the card, a button for
previous card, unavailable since you are on the first card, and a button for
next card.
Activating this button works. It moves you to the
next card.
To easily get to this card in a proper position to read
it, press page up, then s for separator.
The previous and next card buttons both work correctly for
this card and, I assume, for all other cards.
I tested with Chrome and Brave and neither of these
Chrome-based browsers saw either button. I could read the first card below the
separator but no buttons are displayed.
I’ve recently been looking up material on occasion using the Encyclopedia Britannica online. When reading with Firefox, the page being read automatically shows new material as you move down it. Firefox shows this new material when it appears. Chrome-based browsers don’t. This article is an example:
Search from the top of the page for the word nervous. If you down
arrow in Firefox, the text continues after some items, perhaps three or
four. Chrome-based browsers don’t load new material at least not
accessibly to screen-readers.
Chrome-based browsers don’t see comments on Youtube pages where videos are
streamed. Firefox does. Because the page changes as you move down
it, you have to move down the page to see the comments. You can’t just
search for the word comment to get to the section.
I’ll add that all these comments are for my specific machine but I expect
they will be generally experienced. Verification, however, is
necessary.
Are these problems with Chrome, with NVDA, or both? I suspect that
these problems are not improper implementation of accessibility. Those
questions, however, would require technically knowledgeable investigation to be
resolved.
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in
Google Chrome Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume
what the problem is and that it is improper design. Also, there may be
cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if
you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way. I
haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but
again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in
Google Chrome Yeah
well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't. & it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a "clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create problems for us. On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote: > Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google > Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me" > checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you > press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't > tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and > inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a > memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read > some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got > to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their > site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices > claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA > users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same > site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember > me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it, > NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This > was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as > accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and > screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said > "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on > them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations > on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome. > Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the > checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the > website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the > checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like > checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So > what's the deal with checkboxes? > > > > > > -- Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to: wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs & check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com
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Jackie
Might have something to do w/the fact that 1 of the cofounders of NVDA
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currently works for Mozilla? Or not. We definitively have a strong ally in James Teh, though, & I rather suspect that's not so much the case w/Google. I know firsthand that when he started getting reports of Firefox 90 not working he was all over it. I know this because he actually used my machine remotely to do some debugging, because he could not reproduce the bug on any of his.
On 11/15/21, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I am increasingly finding cases where Firefox either sees things or does --
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Brian Sackrider
I have an example of whear fire fox will and nvda will see somthng but chrome brousers don't. The audio of the lions magazine in both edge and chrome there is no down it all button but in fire fox there is a down it all button. I am not surprised about other things that fire fox sees that chrome brousers don't this is why I say that for the blind chrome based brousers are kind of usless junk and this is the reason that I use internet explorer for as long as I did as it was not a chrome based brouser. I have windows 11 and there is no more internet explorer so I had to find a nonchrome based brouser and thats why i am using fire fox as my default brouser. Brian Sackrider On 11/15/2021 5:12 PM, Gene wrote:
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No they really do not. I've had my fair share of battle with web developers who don't really want to change things as they are working fine for them. It's sad really. I feel like I'm giving them an education in a course they should have taken to begin with.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jackie Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:27 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome Truthfully, I don't think the vast majority of web devs know the difference between clickable elements & checkboxes. On 11/15/21, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote: Some browsers render things different per the instructions of the web -- Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to: wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs & check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com
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Steve Nutt
Hi Brian,
You’re absolutely right about this.
There are clickables that don’t appear to the screen reader to be actionable, so they just sound like a piece of text. The only thing I find I can do is to press enter or Insert Enter on them to see if they action anything.
All the best
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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 15 November 2021 17:46 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Jackie wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all. ~ John F. Kennedy
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Steve Nutt
It’s just a shame that Firefox is so slow compared with Chrome, certainly on all my machines it is.
All the best
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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Sackrider
Sent: 16 November 2021 00:10 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
I have an example of whear fire fox will and nvda will see somthng but chrome brousers don't. The audio of the lions magazine in both edge and chrome there is no down it all button but in fire fox there is a down it all button. I am not surprised about other things that fire fox sees that chrome brousers don't this is why I say that for the blind chrome based brousers are kind of usless junk and this is the reason that I use internet explorer for as long as I did as it was not a chrome based brouser. I have windows 11 and there is no more internet explorer so I had to find a nonchrome based brouser and thats why i am using fire fox as my default brouser. Brian Sackrider On 11/15/2021 5:12 PM, Gene wrote:
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On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 07:09 PM, Brian Sackrider wrote:
for the blind chrome based brousers are kind of usless junk- Assertions like this are, quite simply, foolish and incorrect. The predominant browser in the world right now is Chrome, and there's ample evidence of blind people using it on every blind-tech-focused group out there. It is a truism that certain sites will "play better" with specific browsers at times. And that translates over to how screen readers "play with" those sites using those browsers. If you give a specific URL on which others can experiment, there might be a lot more information forthcoming about that particular page, and those analogous to it, under the different browsers. I know you said Lions Magazine, but that's too vague. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043 The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all. ~ John F. Kennedy
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Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...>
The example I had on my mind when I wrote was the sign-in page for the
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payment/digital currency website Palai. https://palai.org/u/sign_in In fact, I assumed that the "remember me" feature had been erased from the page, until I noticed that it worked on Firefox. Well, I analyzed the HTML code for the sign-in page and found out I was able to change the URL so it is checked by default. https://palai.org/u/sign_in?user[remember_me]=1 Point being, Firefox shows "remember me" (as a clickable item, not as a checkbox), while in Chrome it doesn't see it at all, as if it just isn't there.
On 11/16/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 07:09 PM, Brian Sackrider wrote:-
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