locked control names


Don H
 

When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example Start Button. Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say Button Start instead of what is now saying Start Button?
Thanks


Gene
 

Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to say the kind of control first.  You might be able to change this in the speech dictionary.  Why do you want to make such a change.  It is less efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example Start Button.  Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say Button Start instead of what is now saying Start  Button?
Thanks




Don H
 

Having been a Window Eyes user for many many years there was a option to
change such things. I tried putting start button in the default
dictionary to be replaced with button start and it did not work.

On 1/29/2022 8:13 PM, Gene wrote:
Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to
say the kind of control first.  You might be able to change this in the
speech dictionary.  Why do you want to make such a change.  It is less
efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example
Start Button.  Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say
Button Start instead of what is now saying Start  Button?
Thanks







Gene
 

The following isn't to say that this should not be user definable, it should.  I don't know why what you tried didn't work but try leaving it as it is for a week.  I think you will get used to it and it won't bother you.  And on web pages and dialogs, you will hear the same order.  As I said, hearing the control class first is less efficient.  I don't want to hear button OK.  I want to hear OK button.  When I hear OK, I know its a button.  When have you ever heard OK in a dialog when it wasn't.  Hearing button first doesn't tell you what the button is first.  It tells you that you are on a button.


And in other cases, if I'm moving through a web page by link, using the letter k, I know I'm moving to a link.  I want to hear the text of the link first.  I don't want to hear the word link before the text of every link.  I can skip the link without hearing link first every time I get to a link.  If the first number of words tell me the link isn't something I want to hear further, I can skip it without another unnecessary word.


That sort of thing adds up over time and, for me, is very annoying.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 8:21 PM, Don H wrote:
Having been a Window Eyes user for many many years there was a option to
change such things.  I tried putting start button in the default
dictionary to be replaced with button start and it did not work.

On 1/29/2022 8:13 PM, Gene wrote:
Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to
say the kind of control first.  You might be able to change this in the
speech dictionary.  Why do you want to make such a change.  It is less
efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example
Start Button.  Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say
Button Start instead of what is now saying Start  Button?
Thanks










Gene
 

I was experimenting and it seems as though, for a technical reason, control names can't be changed by the speech dictionary. I can change how start is spoken, or what is said in its place but when I make an entry for the word button, that has no effect on how button is spoken when it is spoken as a control.  Out of curiosity, I wonder why that is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 8:38 PM, Gene wrote:
The following isn't to say that this should not be user definable, it should.  I don't know why what you tried didn't work but try leaving it as it is for a week.  I think you will get used to it and it won't bother you.  And on web pages and dialogs, you will hear the same order.  As I said, hearing the control class first is less efficient.  I don't want to hear button OK.  I want to hear OK button.  When I hear OK, I know its a button.  When have you ever heard OK in a dialog when it wasn't.  Hearing button first doesn't tell you what the button is first.  It tells you that you are on a button.


And in other cases, if I'm moving through a web page by link, using the letter k, I know I'm moving to a link.  I want to hear the text of the link first.  I don't want to hear the word link before the text of every link.  I can skip the link without hearing link first every time I get to a link.  If the first number of words tell me the link isn't something I want to hear further, I can skip it without another unnecessary word.


That sort of thing adds up over time and, for me, is very annoying.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 8:21 PM, Don H wrote:
Having been a Window Eyes user for many many years there was a option to
change such things.  I tried putting start button in the default
dictionary to be replaced with button start and it did not work.

On 1/29/2022 8:13 PM, Gene wrote:
Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to
say the kind of control first.  You might be able to change this in the
speech dictionary.  Why do you want to make such a change.  It is less
efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example
Start Button.  Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say
Button Start instead of what is now saying Start  Button?
Thanks










 

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 09:38 PM, Gene wrote:
The following isn't to say that this should not be user definable, it should. 
-
Actually, I disagree, and strongly.  

These things are defined by, and exposed to, the screen reader by Windows itself.  And I have little doubt (though there is a tiny scintilla) that NVDA does not even route things that are exposed by Windows that are Windows controls and dialogs, etc., through the dictionary processor.

They're not "text" in any conventional sense of the phrase, and shouldn't be treated as such.  OS control names, and how they are announced, should not be user definable.  All hell could easily break loose were that permitted.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

I've just proven my theory about control text not being sent through the dictionary processing wrong.

If you want to see "fun with dictionary replacement" for the start button, try putting this in the temporary dictionary, the part before the pipe character being the match afterward the replacement.

start button|button start
start|begin
button|control

then route to the start button in the taskbar.  Then have NVDA read the following sentence:

The start buttion is one of the primary controls of Windows.

This is why I don't think:
1. OS controls should have their names dictionary processed.
2. That the dictionary processing should continue after a match has been made.  On match, substitute, then drop out.  Don't process the substitute against the remainder of the dictionary.

-------
If you used the temporary dictionary, if you restart NVDA, all of the above is gone, which is a good thing.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

The sentence in that last post should have been:  The start button is one of the primary controls of Windows.

If you use what I typed, "buttion," in the original the desired "messy outcome" is not going to occur.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

Hi all,

Brian's reasons are very convincing. Now let me give you a more convincing reason:

Short answer: Don, I'm sorry, but your suggestion cannot become reality without "warping reality itself."

Explanation: internally, NVDA uses several functions to obtain control properties such as name (label), role, state, selection status, among other things. These functions pass around two things:

  • Object properties: a dictionary of property names and their current (or sometimes, cached) values. For example, one of the properties is "role", which records NVDA's understanding of the role of the object (as reported by accessibility API's).
  • Speech sequence: object properties are then sequenced to give you the speech you hear, typically in the following order: name, role, custom role text 9if defined by contrls and web documents), state, description, value, table coordinate information (if appropriate), and other properties. Speech sequences are stored as a list of strings and are added (concatenated) together to present control information in a variety of forms, including speech and braille.

As Brian observed, the words "start button" carries two control properties: label (Start) and role (button). In reality, the Start button includes other properties, but to NVDA, what's more important in this case are label and role. The process involved in NVDA saying "Start button" is:

  1. NVDA notices that you have moved system focus to a button named "Start".
  2. NVDA will create an internal representation of this control and ask accessibility API's for information such as label and role. NVDA gathers other things such as button location, but these are not important.
  3. NVDA will represent object properties in a format that can be understood by various output processors. This is when object properties dictionary is passed to speech, braille, and other output modules.
  4. The speech output processor will construct a speech sequence based on object properties given. The sequence will contain the terms "name: Start" and "role: button" (at a high-level, but it is represented differently internally). This sequence is then gathered and added together to produce the words "Start button".
  5. Similarly, braille output processor will format these properties for display on a braille display, except role names are shortened. As a result, braille users will see "Start btn" on their displays.

Now what will it take to "warp reality?" I'll leave that up to you (hint: it isn't easy not just because you need to test a lot, but also thanks to philosophical discussions). Until next time...

P.S. I feel that, lately, I've become some kind of a historian or something. If only I can travel back to the 1980's (Stranger Things, anyone?).

Cheers,

Joseph


Gene
 

I didn't say the name of the control should be user definable.  I hadn't thought about that.  But as to whether the name such as start is spoken first or the class such as button, should be definable, it was definable in Window-eyes.  I don't know if it is definable in JAWS. 


I don't have strong opinions about that, but I believe the order should be definable.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 9:38 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 09:38 PM, Gene wrote:
The following isn't to say that this should not be user definable, it should. 
-
Actually, I disagree, and strongly.  

These things are defined by, and exposed to, the screen reader by Windows itself.  And I have little doubt (though there is a tiny scintilla) that NVDA does not even route things that are exposed by Windows that are Windows controls and dialogs, etc., through the dictionary processor.

They're not "text" in any conventional sense of the phrase, and shouldn't be treated as such.  OS control names, and how they are announced, should not be user definable.  All hell could easily break loose were that permitted.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 11:58 PM, Gene wrote:
it was definable in Window-eyes.
-
The following is not aimed at you, Gene, but at the fact you stated above:  So what?

There are bad design decisions all the time in myriad pieces of software.  Spreading them around is not a good idea.

If between what I gave the demonstration for and Joseph explained in depth with regard to "how things work under the hood" is not enough to make the wisdom of what Window Eyes allowed questionable, nothing will.

I wouldn't endorse spreading NVDA's method of continuing processing of a dictionary after the first match and replacement has made, passing the replacement along for further matching and replacement, to other software, either.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Gene
 

I'm not saying that if something is in a piece of software, that means that it should be incorporated into another just because it is there.  But it is my impression that, for some reason, some users want to change the order, for example, hearing the text spoken before the word link. 


I'll read Joseph Lee's message again.  At present, I don't understand it enough to know if and how it bears on what I said. 


Gene

On 1/29/2022 11:03 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 11:58 PM, Gene wrote:
it was definable in Window-eyes.
-
The following is not aimed at you, Gene, but at the fact you stated above:  So what?

There are bad design decisions all the time in myriad pieces of software.  Spreading them around is not a good idea.

If between what I gave the demonstration for and Joseph explained in depth with regard to "how things work under the hood" is not enough to make the wisdom of what Window Eyes allowed questionable, nothing will.

I wouldn't endorse spreading NVDA's method of continuing processing of a dictionary after the first match and replacement has made, passing the replacement along for further matching and replacement, to other software, either.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Rowen Cary
 

Hi,

I understand what you're saying, but when we use the up and down arrows to browse the web page, NVDA will report the word "link" first, and then report the text of the link, which is inefficient as some people say. If I remember correctly, there is also a discussion about this in NVDA's Issue, can you share your opinion? Why didn't NVAccess make some improvements to this?

Grateful On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 12:54 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Brian's reasons are very convincing. Now let me give you a more convincing reason:

Short answer: Don, I'm sorry, but your suggestion cannot become reality without "warping reality itself."

Explanation: internally, NVDA uses several functions to obtain control properties such as name (label), role, state, selection status, among other things. These functions pass around two things:

  • Object properties: a dictionary of property names and their current (or sometimes, cached) values. For example, one of the properties is "role", which records NVDA's understanding of the role of the object (as reported by accessibility API's).
  • Speech sequence: object properties are then sequenced to give you the speech you hear, typically in the following order: name, role, custom role text 9if defined by contrls and web documents), state, description, value, table coordinate information (if appropriate), and other properties. Speech sequences are stored as a list of strings and are added (concatenated) together to present control information in a variety of forms, including speech and braille.

As Brian observed, the words "start button" carries two control properties: label (Start) and role (button). In reality, the Start button includes other properties, but to NVDA, what's more important in this case are label and role. The process involved in NVDA saying "Start button" is:

  1. NVDA notices that you have moved system focus to a button named "Start".
  2. NVDA will create an internal representation of this control and ask accessibility API's for information such as label and role. NVDA gathers other things such as button location, but these are not important.
  3. NVDA will represent object properties in a format that can be understood by various output processors. This is when object properties dictionary is passed to speech, braille, and other output modules.
  4. The speech output processor will construct a speech sequence based on object properties given. The sequence will contain the terms "name: Start" and "role: button" (at a high-level, but it is represented differently internally). This sequence is then gathered and added together to produce the words "Start button".
  5. Similarly, braille output processor will format these properties for display on a braille display, except role names are shortened. As a result, braille users will see "Start btn" on their displays.

Now what will it take to "warp reality?" I'll leave that up to you (hint: it isn't easy not just because you need to test a lot, but also thanks to philosophical discussions). Until next time...

P.S. I feel that, lately, I've become some kind of a historian or something. If only I can travel back to the 1980's (Stranger Things, anyone?).

Cheers,

Joseph


Chris Mullins
 

Hi

I suspect it’s because the word “Button” in this context is not physical text that is subject to a dictionary interpretation, it’s a software generated description of a control object.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Gene
Sent: 30 January 2022 02:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names

 

I was experimenting and it seems as though, for a technical reason,

control names can't be changed by the speech dictionary. I can change

how start is spoken, or what is said in its place but when I make an

entry for the word button, that has no effect on how button is spoken

when it is spoken as a control.  Out of curiosity, I wonder why that is.

 

 

Gene

 

On 1/29/2022 8:38 PM, Gene wrote:

> The following isn't to say that this should not be user definable, it

> should.  I don't know why what you tried didn't work but try leaving

> it as it is for a week.  I think you will get used to it and it won't

> bother you.  And on web pages and dialogs, you will hear the same

> order.  As I said, hearing the control class first is less efficient. 

> I don't want to hear button OK.  I want to hear OK button.  When I

> hear OK, I know its a button.  When have you ever heard OK in a dialog

> when it wasn't.  Hearing button first doesn't tell you what the button

> is first.  It tells you that you are on a button.

> And in other cases, if I'm moving through a web page by link, using

> the letter k, I know I'm moving to a link.  I want to hear the text of

> the link first.  I don't want to hear the word link before the text of

> every link.  I can skip the link without hearing link first every time

> I get to a link.  If the first number of words tell me the link isn't

> something I want to hear further, I can skip it without another

> unnecessary word.

> That sort of thing adds up over time and, for me, is very annoying.

> Gene

> On 1/29/2022 8:21 PM, Don H wrote:

>> Having been a Window Eyes user for many many years there was a option to

>> change such things.  I tried putting start button in the default

>> dictionary to be replaced with button start and it did not work.

>> 

>> On 1/29/2022 8:13 PM, Gene wrote:

>>> Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no

>>> setting to

>>> say the kind of control first.  You might be able to change this in the

>>> speech dictionary.  Why do you want to make such a change.  It is less

>>> efficient to hear the word button before what it is.

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Gene

>>> 

>>> On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:

>>>> When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example

>>>> Start Button.  Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say

>>>> Button Start instead of what is now saying Start  Button?

>>>> Thanks

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>> 

>> 

>>

>> 

>> 

 

 

 

 

 


Gene
 

Joseph and all
 
If I understand your message, you are saying that having a setting allowing the user to change the order from start button to button start, for example would be difficult.  Is that correct?  This would be a setting that changes tbehavior in general.  I’m not sure if I’m using the terminology correctly so I’ll say that, for example, some people might want to hear button start first.  I don’t know if people in general consider the ability to switch the behavior at all important. 
 
Regarding the discussion of when link is spoken in the message below mine, the behavior is different depending on movement.  When I tab to a link, the text of the link is spoken before the word link.  That applies to to the description “visited link.”  Also, when I move by k, the text is read before the word link or before visited link are spoken.  When I down arrow, link and visited link are spoken first.  Does this have a bearing on what we are discussing for those who want to specify the order in which these things are announced?
 
Gene

------Original Message-----
From: Rowen Cary
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 4:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names
 

Hi,

I understand what you're saying, but when we use the up and down arrows to browse the web page, NVDA will report the word "link" first, and then report the text of the link, which is inefficient as some people say. If I remember correctly, there is also a discussion about this in NVDA's Issue, can you share your opinion? Why didn't NVAccess make some improvements to this?

Grateful On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 12:54 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Brian's reasons are very convincing. Now let me give you a more convincing reason:

Short answer: Don, I'm sorry, but your suggestion cannot become reality without "warping reality itself."

Explanation: internally, NVDA uses several functions to obtain control properties such as name (label), role, state, selection status, among other things. These functions pass around two things:

  • Object properties: a dictionary of property names and their current (or sometimes, cached) values. For example, one of the properties is "role", which records NVDA's understanding of the role of the object (as reported by accessibility API's).
  • Speech sequence: object properties are then sequenced to give you the speech you hear, typically in the following order: name, role, custom role text 9if defined by contrls and web documents), state, description, value, table coordinate information (if appropriate), and other properties. Speech sequences are stored as a list of strings and are added (concatenated) together to present control information in a variety of forms, including speech and braille.

As Brian observed, the words "start button" carries two control properties: label (Start) and role (button). In reality, the Start button includes other properties, but to NVDA, what's more important in this case are label and role. The process involved in NVDA saying "Start button" is:

  1. NVDA notices that you have moved system focus to a button named "Start".
  2. NVDA will create an internal representation of this control and ask accessibility API's for information such as label and role. NVDA gathers other things such as button location, but these are not important.
  3. NVDA will represent object properties in a format that can be understood by various output processors. This is when object properties dictionary is passed to speech, braille, and other output modules.
  4. The speech output processor will construct a speech sequence based on object properties given. The sequence will contain the terms "name: Start" and "role: button" (at a high-level, but it is represented differently internally). This sequence is then gathered and added together to produce the words "Start button".
  5. Similarly, braille output processor will format these properties for display on a braille display, except role names are shortened. As a result, braille users will see "Start btn" on their displays.

Now what will it take to "warp reality?" I'll leave that up to you (hint: it isn't easy not just because you need to test a lot, but also thanks to philosophical discussions). Until next time...

P.S. I feel that, lately, I've become some kind of a historian or something. If only I can travel back to the 1980's (Stranger Things, anyone?).

Cheers,

Joseph


Rui Fontes
 

If NVDA itself do not always use the same order reading the name and label of controls, why the user can not set his prefered order?


By instance in NV Access home page, if I read with arrows, I hear:

link    Support NV Access

and if I navigate with K, I hear:

Support NV Access  link  


So, for me, the user should be able, in Advanced options or in a new category, Verbosity options, , to choose his prefered announce order...


Best regards,

Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team



Às 10:38 de 30/01/2022, Rowen Cary escreveu:

Hi,

I understand what you're saying, but when we use the up and down arrows to browse the web page, NVDA will report the word "link" first, and then report the text of the link, which is inefficient as some people say. If I remember correctly, there is also a discussion about this in NVDA's Issue, can you share your opinion? Why didn't NVAccess make some improvements to this?

Grateful On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 12:54 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Brian's reasons are very convincing. Now let me give you a more convincing reason:

Short answer: Don, I'm sorry, but your suggestion cannot become reality without "warping reality itself."

Explanation: internally, NVDA uses several functions to obtain control properties such as name (label), role, state, selection status, among other things. These functions pass around two things:

  • Object properties: a dictionary of property names and their current (or sometimes, cached) values. For example, one of the properties is "role", which records NVDA's understanding of the role of the object (as reported by accessibility API's).
  • Speech sequence: object properties are then sequenced to give you the speech you hear, typically in the following order: name, role, custom role text 9if defined by contrls and web documents), state, description, value, table coordinate information (if appropriate), and other properties. Speech sequences are stored as a list of strings and are added (concatenated) together to present control information in a variety of forms, including speech and braille.

As Brian observed, the words "start button" carries two control properties: label (Start) and role (button). In reality, the Start button includes other properties, but to NVDA, what's more important in this case are label and role. The process involved in NVDA saying "Start button" is:

  1. NVDA notices that you have moved system focus to a button named "Start".
  2. NVDA will create an internal representation of this control and ask accessibility API's for information such as label and role. NVDA gathers other things such as button location, but these are not important.
  3. NVDA will represent object properties in a format that can be understood by various output processors. This is when object properties dictionary is passed to speech, braille, and other output modules.
  4. The speech output processor will construct a speech sequence based on object properties given. The sequence will contain the terms "name: Start" and "role: button" (at a high-level, but it is represented differently internally). This sequence is then gathered and added together to produce the words "Start button".
  5. Similarly, braille output processor will format these properties for display on a braille display, except role names are shortened. As a result, braille users will see "Start btn" on their displays.

Now what will it take to "warp reality?" I'll leave that up to you (hint: it isn't easy not just because you need to test a lot, but also thanks to philosophical discussions). Until next time...

P.S. I feel that, lately, I've become some kind of a historian or something. If only I can travel back to the 1980's (Stranger Things, anyone?).

Cheers,

Joseph


 

On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 11:39 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:

By instance in NV Access home page, if I read with arrows, I hear:

link    Support NV Access

and if I navigate with K, I hear:

Support NV Access  link  
-
You don't think this is a deliberate design choice?

When you're down arrowing through a page heaven only knows what you're going to hit, and you get the control you've hit (when you hit one) followed by the descriptive text.  It's a way of differentiating ongoing text from some sort of control or structure like a table or list.

When you're using the single charachater shortcuts, you know that you are going to land only on the thing the shortcut navigates to, so there is no sense in announcing what that thing is first, but the descriptive text that goes with the instance of that thing.

And that's likely only the case for things that can be embedded in text such as links with text used to present them.  I don't have time to play now, but I'd expect buttons, dropdowns, radio buttons, checkboxes, and the like to always be announced as descriptive text followed by the control type, at least in English.  In languages that use noun-adjective order, like the romance languages, I'd expect the opposite.  
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Gene
 

As I wrote either last night or early this morning, you hear a different order when you move in different ways.  I don't think this is deliberate.   I haven't tried other screen[-readers and paid attention to this so I don't know if the same behaviors occur.  but this sort of thing I wouldn't expect to be deliberate.


I don't know, as I said, if enough people care about this to offer the choice of what is spoken first, I'm asking, however, if there is any technical reason this can't be done.


Gene

On 1/30/2022 11:16 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 11:39 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:

By instance in NV Access home page, if I read with arrows, I hear:

link    Support NV Access

and if I navigate with K, I hear:

Support NV Access  link  
-
You don't think this is a deliberate design choice?

When you're down arrowing through a page heaven only knows what you're going to hit, and you get the control you've hit (when you hit one) followed by the descriptive text.  It's a way of differentiating ongoing text from some sort of control or structure like a table or list.

When you're using the single charachater shortcuts, you know that you are going to land only on the thing the shortcut navigates to, so there is no sense in announcing what that thing is first, but the descriptive text that goes with the instance of that thing.

And that's likely only the case for things that can be embedded in text such as links with text used to present them.  I don't have time to play now, but I'd expect buttons, dropdowns, radio buttons, checkboxes, and the like to always be announced as descriptive text followed by the control type, at least in English.  In languages that use noun-adjective order, like the romance languages, I'd expect the opposite.  
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Rui Fontes
 

I know why this different approach...

But, if it is possible to NV Access to decide the order, why not gave the same power to the user?


Rui Fontes


Às 17:16 de 30/01/2022, Brian Vogel escreveu:

On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 11:39 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:

By instance in NV Access home page, if I read with arrows, I hear:

link    Support NV Access

and if I navigate with K, I hear:

Support NV Access  link  
-
You don't think this is a deliberate design choice?

When you're down arrowing through a page heaven only knows what you're going to hit, and you get the control you've hit (when you hit one) followed by the descriptive text.  It's a way of differentiating ongoing text from some sort of control or structure like a table or list.

When you're using the single charachater shortcuts, you know that you are going to land only on the thing the shortcut navigates to, so there is no sense in announcing what that thing is first, but the descriptive text that goes with the instance of that thing.

And that's likely only the case for things that can be embedded in text such as links with text used to present them.  I don't have time to play now, but I'd expect buttons, dropdowns, radio buttons, checkboxes, and the like to always be announced as descriptive text followed by the control type, at least in English.  In languages that use noun-adjective order, like the romance languages, I'd expect the opposite.  
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Gene
 

I just checked this with a very old version of JAWS.  When I get my new machine, I'll have a current version but I would expect what I found to still apply, but that would need to be checked.


I found that when I tab, using JAWS, the text is spoken first, then the word link.  When I down arrow, link is spoken before the text.

Evidently, there is something about how information is presented when you tab that is different when you move in those two ways.


Gene

On 1/30/2022 11:22 AM, Gene wrote:

As I wrote either last night or early this morning, you hear a different order when you move in different ways.  I don't think this is deliberate.   I haven't tried other screen[-readers and paid attention to this so I don't know if the same behaviors occur.  but this sort of thing I wouldn't expect to be deliberate.


I don't know, as I said, if enough people care about this to offer the choice of what is spoken first, I'm asking, however, if there is any technical reason this can't be done.


Gene

On 1/30/2022 11:16 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 11:39 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:

By instance in NV Access home page, if I read with arrows, I hear:

link    Support NV Access

and if I navigate with K, I hear:

Support NV Access  link  
-
You don't think this is a deliberate design choice?

When you're down arrowing through a page heaven only knows what you're going to hit, and you get the control you've hit (when you hit one) followed by the descriptive text.  It's a way of differentiating ongoing text from some sort of control or structure like a table or list.

When you're using the single charachater shortcuts, you know that you are going to land only on the thing the shortcut navigates to, so there is no sense in announcing what that thing is first, but the descriptive text that goes with the instance of that thing.

And that's likely only the case for things that can be embedded in text such as links with text used to present them.  I don't have time to play now, but I'd expect buttons, dropdowns, radio buttons, checkboxes, and the like to always be announced as descriptive text followed by the control type, at least in English.  In languages that use noun-adjective order, like the romance languages, I'd expect the opposite.  
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)