Another annoyance that can't be turned off


Gene
 

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 


I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.


I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 


I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 


Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


Gene


hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


I am guessing you a talking about the following.


Press the windows key and type in  say a letter or 2 so it brings up some search suggestions which makes a whirl sound?


If you look under object presentation it can be turned off there look for the following called Play a sound when auto-suggestions appear


If un checked there will be no sound.



Gene nz


.

On 3/02/2022 11:28 pm, Gene wrote:

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 


I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.


I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 


I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 


Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


Gene


Patrick Le Baudour
 

Hi,

the start menu is not the only place suggestions can happen, and even there it has occasionally been useful to me when the system was very sluggish and the spoken suggestion announcement would have taken a while.

-- Patrick


Christopher Bartlett
 

Yeah, I'm kind of good with this sound, since I have things set up so that continuing to type stops the reading of a message.  It's not incompetence, just another way of conveying info.  I'm glad you can turn it off, for those who don't like it; huzzah for customization.

Christopher Bartlett


On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 5:33 AM Patrick Le Baudour <p.lebaudour@...> wrote:
Hi,

the start menu is not the only place suggestions can happen, and even
there it has occasionally  been useful to me when the system was very
sluggish and the spoken suggestion announcement would have taken a while.

-- Patrick










--
Christopher Bartlett


Gene
 

That's good to know but who would think to look in object presentation?  It seems to me that placing the setting there is a real stretch of logic, perhaps tangentially accurate but useless to the typical user.  There should be a setting in general settings, where I looked that simply says, no sound or sounds, however it might be worded.   And why have this sound in the first place?  It tells us nothing of any use.  The start menu has been used for over a decade with no one feeling a need for such a sound. 


Gene

On 2/3/2022 4:37 AM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi


I am guessing you a talking about the following.


Press the windows key and type in  say a letter or 2 so it brings up some search suggestions which makes a whirl sound?


If you look under object presentation it can be turned off there look for the following called Play a sound when auto-suggestions appear


If un checked there will be no sound.



Gene nz


.

On 3/02/2022 11:28 pm, Gene wrote:

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 


I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.


I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 


I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 


Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


Gene


Gene
 

Do you mean helpful because you knew that if you waited long enough, you would hear speech?


Gene

On 2/3/2022 5:32 AM, Patrick Le Baudour wrote:
Hi,

the start menu is not the only place suggestions can happen, and even there it has occasionally  been useful to me when the system was very sluggish and the spoken suggestion announcement would have taken a while.

-- Patrick







.


 
Edited

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 09:12 AM, Gene wrote:
It tells us nothing of any use.
-
Gene,

Several people have already stated, clearly, that it is of use to them.

Your assertions because things are not "of use" to you that they are "nothing of any use" is one of the most annoying things you do.  And you do it again, and again, and again, and again.

Your opinion does not hold sway over NVDA and its developers.  Just like I mentioned to someone else moments ago:  Deal with it!

These complaints sound like something from petulant children.  Not each and every feature of each and every piece of software you use is going to meet your personal preferences no matter what those happen to be.  And a great many of them (but not this one) will NOT be customizable.

I do not know where the idea has arisen that any complex piece of software is supposed to fit any individual user like a custom-tailored suit, but it's always been patently false.

Some things can be customized, some can't.  And some things are, relatively speaking, easy to change, some aren't.  But in the end no piece of software is being made for you, and you alone, unless you make it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Gene
 

If I state something strongly and others disagree, that's fine.  That's one of the points of the list.  I didn't respond to anyone by telling them they shouldn't want the sound.  Others responding, depending on their responses, may make a case for the sound remaining or not remaining. 


Gene

On 2/3/2022 9:30 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 09:12 AM, Gene wrote:
It tells us nothing of any use.
-
Gene,

Several people have already stated, clearly, that it is of use to them.

Your assertions because things are not "of use" to you that they are "nothing of any use" is one of the most annoying things you do.  And you do it again, and again, and again, and again.

Your opinion does not hold sway over NVDA and its developers.  Just like I mentioned to someone else moments ago:  Deal with it!

These complaints sound like something from petulant children.  Not each and every feature of each and every piece of software you use is going to meet your personal preferences no matter what those happen to be.  And a great many of them (but not this one) will NOT be customizable.

I do not know where the idea has arizen that any complex piece of software is supposed to fit any individual user like a custom-tailored suit has arisen, but it's always been patently false.

Some things can be customized, some can't.  And some things are, relatively speaking, easy to change, some aren't.  But in the end no piece of software is being made for you, and you alone, unless you make it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 10:38 AM, Gene wrote:
If I state something strongly and others disagree, that's fine.
-
Gene, you need to learn that stating opinions, even strongly held ones, as absolutes is just plain foolish.  It is incredibly off-putting to a large number of people.

And I know whereof I speak, because I used to do precisely what you do, and was told, directly, on many occasions, that it actually makes those who might see things your way resist because they are not absolutist.

But your opinion, as stated, as soon as exception is taken, is wrong.  All it takes is a single counterexample to falsify any argument.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

I don’t get this sound when I open my start menu and search.  And if I do I’m used to it, this lets me know quickly that there is something there, for, when I make a mistake, I might not hear that sound. I hear it in settings and explorer.exe as well.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 2:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Another annoyance that can't be turned off

 

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 

 

I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.

 

I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 

 

I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 

 

Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

 

Gene


Gene
 

If others disagree, that's fine.  But I disagree that stating strong opinions isn't a good idea.  It depends what you are discussing.  And if people disagree, that doesn't make me wrong.  There may be many people who have strong feelings about something who agree with me.  In such cases, discussion may lead to some sort of approach that is better than the one currently being taken. 


for example, in this case, the discussion has caused me to think of a way to improve the situation I hadn't thought of at the outset and which I wrote about earlier. 


While you might say the sound question is a preference, people have all sorts of strong opinions about preferences and products often take them into account. 


Gene
On 2/3/2022 9:48 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 10:38 AM, Gene wrote:
If I state something strongly and others disagree, that's fine.
-
Gene, you need to learn that stating opinions, even strongly held ones, as absolutes is just plain foolish.  It is incredibly off-putting to a large number of people.

And I know whereof I speak, because I used to do precisely what you do, and was told, directly, on many occasions, that it actually makes those who might see things your way resist because they are not absolutist.

But your opinion, as stated, as soon as exception is taken, is wrong.  All it takes is a single counterexample to falsify any argument.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Robin Frost
 

Hi,

Gene said:

"And why have this sound in the first place?  It tells us nothing of any use.  The start menu has been used for over a decade
with no one feeling a need for such a sound." 
I find this assertion truly troubling.

What if for instance the existence of such was thought about to aid those who might use NVDA but might also have some other disabilities like those who might struggle with language processing or might have what some refer to as auditory dyslexia. I.E. verbal information is often scrambled by the time it gets to their brains. Thus a simple sound to indicate something might work better for them than a verbal cue.

Just because something night not seem useful to me I always try to keep in mind that it may be of significant value and helpfulness to someone else.

Further, I don't imagine that in the case of a highly specialized piece of software such as NVDA meant for a very targeted audience things are added simply on a whim or for the purposes of just being gimmicky.

Just my $0.02 no one asked for.

Take good care.

Robin


On 2/3/2022 9:12 AM, Gene wrote:

That's good to know but who would think to look in object presentation?  It seems to me that placing the setting there is a real stretch of logic, perhaps tangentially accurate but useless to the typical user.  There should be a setting in general settings, where I looked that simply says, no sound or sounds, however it might be worded.   And why have this sound in the first place?  It tells us nothing of any use.  The start menu has been used for over a decade with no one feeling a need for such a sound. 


Gene

On 2/3/2022 4:37 AM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi


I am guessing you a talking about the following.


Press the windows key and type in  say a letter or 2 so it brings up some search suggestions which makes a whirl sound?


If you look under object presentation it can be turned off there look for the following called Play a sound when auto-suggestions appear


If un checked there will be no sound.



Gene nz


.

On 3/02/2022 11:28 pm, Gene wrote:

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 


I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.


I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 


I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 


Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


Gene


Sarah k Alawami
 

No, you force your opinion on others, or at least it’s implied, your tone is rather abrupt, worse than mine at times, all the time actually?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 7:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Another annoyance that can't be turned off

 

If I state something strongly and others disagree, that's fine.  That's one of the points of the list.  I didn't respond to anyone by telling them they shouldn't want the sound.  Others responding, depending on their responses, may make a case for the sound remaining or not remaining. 

 

Gene


Brian Moore
 

Actually, it is super useful imho. Sometimes, particularly on my work computer, those suggestions take time to come up so it is helpful to know when they appear


Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123
On 2022-02-03 5:28 a.m., Gene wrote:

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 


I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.


I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 


I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 


Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


Gene


Gene
 

I'm perfectly willing to consider reasons people think the sound is a good idea.  I even said at the outset that I was writing in part to see what people think. 


Having said that, adding a sound like this, I think, may annoy a lot of people and there should be a logical and clear way to turn it off.  There isn't now. 


I've never seen this discussed, but I suspect there are enough users who don't want the screen-reader to make any sounds that there should be a no sound option in general settings.


Gene

On 2/3/2022 10:02 AM, Robin Frost wrote:

Hi,

Gene said:

"And why have this sound in the first place?  It tells us nothing of any use.  The start menu has been used for over a decade
with no one feeling a need for such a sound." 
I find this assertion truly troubling.

What if for instance the existence of such was thought about to aid those who might use NVDA but might also have some other disabilities like those who might struggle with language processing or might have what some refer to as auditory dyslexia. I.E. verbal information is often scrambled by the time it gets to their brains. Thus a simple sound to indicate something might work better for them than a verbal cue.

Just because something night not seem useful to me I always try to keep in mind that it may be of significant value and helpfulness to someone else.

Further, I don't imagine that in the case of a highly specialized piece of software such as NVDA meant for a very targeted audience things are added simply on a whim or for the purposes of just being gimmicky.

Just my $0.02 no one asked for.

Take good care.

Robin


On 2/3/2022 9:12 AM, Gene wrote:

That's good to know but who would think to look in object presentation?  It seems to me that placing the setting there is a real stretch of logic, perhaps tangentially accurate but useless to the typical user.  There should be a setting in general settings, where I looked that simply says, no sound or sounds, however it might be worded.   And why have this sound in the first place?  It tells us nothing of any use.  The start menu has been used for over a decade with no one feeling a need for such a sound. 


Gene

On 2/3/2022 4:37 AM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi


I am guessing you a talking about the following.


Press the windows key and type in  say a letter or 2 so it brings up some search suggestions which makes a whirl sound?


If you look under object presentation it can be turned off there look for the following called Play a sound when auto-suggestions appear


If un checked there will be no sound.



Gene nz


.

On 3/02/2022 11:28 pm, Gene wrote:

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 


I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.


I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 


I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 


Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


Gene


 

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 09:12 AM, Gene wrote:
That's good to know but who would think to look in object presentation?  It seems to me that placing the setting there is a real stretch of logic, perhaps tangentially accurate but useless to the typical user.
-
No one would.   But that's a problem with settings in any complex piece of software.  How things come to land in "really peculiar spots" is very often a direct result of what it is that actually controls them "under the hood" and the setting ends up where it is most closely linked to that processing.

That is why I have said, on many occasions, that a priority for NVDA should be the creation of a setting search function.  And I am only too well aware of how non-trivial an undertaking that would be, and that it's not going to happen soon.

As software, not just NVDA, keeps becoming more and more and more complex and more and more and more customizable (which drives complexity, particularly in the realm of settings) it is simply not possible to put every given setting where every given user would consider it to be logically placed.  But if it's reasonably named, and even more if the search function uses fuzzy matching (which once you use Windows 10 or 11 settings search, you'll experience), it really doesn't matter where a given setting happens to be placed.  You can zero in on it with just a single carefully chosen word or a couple of even kinda carefully chosen words.

But I'm under no illusion that this will be coming to NVDA anytime soon, because retrofitting that sort of setting search functionality is hellishly difficult.  It's much easier to design it in from the outset, but NVDA came into existence before even the idea of this sort of thing became common.  I don't even think that the JAWS setting search employed "fuzzy matching" the last time I used it, which was in excess of 5 years ago.  If you didn't know the exact term that JAWS used for a given thing, your chances of finding it could be very slim.  I don't know if that's changed or not, but as a "compare and contrast" I'd love to know if any of our dual NVDA and JAWS users can speak to whether fuzzy matching is now used in the JAWS settings search.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Gene
 

I don't force anyone to think anything.  I don't have that kind of power 

Stating an opinion strongly isn't forcing it on anyone. 


If people want to comment about how I express opinions, that's fine with me.  I won't respond to that further, not out of rudeness and not because I am  not reading what people say but because I don't want to repeat myself.


And if people disagree, I consider what they say. 

Gene

On 2/3/2022 10:03 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

No, you force your opinion on others, or at least it’s implied, your tone is rather abrupt, worse than mine at times, all the time actually?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 7:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Another annoyance that can't be turned off

 

If I state something strongly and others disagree, that's fine.  That's one of the points of the list.  I didn't respond to anyone by telling them they shouldn't want the sound.  Others responding, depending on their responses, may make a case for the sound remaining or not remaining. 

 

Gene


 

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 11:29 AM, Gene wrote:
Stating an opinion strongly isn't forcing it on anyone. 
-
Gene, stating an opinion as fact is NOT at all the same as forcefully and strongly stating an opinion.  You need to grasp that, and there has now been more than enough feedback that you should.  You are responsible for what you write.  You are also responsible for knowing how same is most likely to be read by those who see it.

You have repeatedly failed to acknowledge this, and to stop stating your opinions in ways that present them as facts that apply to all.  You deserve exactly the feedback that keeps being provided, but a wise writer would take that feedback on board and temper their style.  But all you do is defend it and repeat it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 11:03 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
you force your opinion on others
-
Sarah, even I have to agree with Gene that it really is impossible to force one's opinion on others.

That being said, it is possible to state one's opinions as though they are accepted facts that should apply to all.  And the part of "the all" to whom those opinions stated as fact do not apply don't appreciate it, and react accordingly.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Chris Smart
 

OK. NVDA must be pretty good if we’re getting stuck in the mud over little sound cues.