|
Hello,
We have been working on a word document using decorative images to illustrate different items.
The images do not bring anything and have been marked as decorative images in the word document.
Note that the MS Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.
Nevertheless, NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does not ignore them.
AS tagging an image as decorative should allow screen readers to ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as decorative ?
We use Office 365.
Thank you in advance
Best
Sylvie
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Sylvie,
It would be worth writing an issue for this with your proposed outcome (possibly ignoring such images when using say all?)
Note that reading Microsoft documentation on alt text says:
" Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add visual interest but aren't informative, you can mark them as such without needing to write any alt text. Examples of objects that should be marked as decorative are stylistic borders. People using screen readers will hear that these objects are decorative so they know they aren’t missing any important information. You can mark your visuals as decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.
" Which clearly indicates that my screen reader will report that the image exists but that it is decorative. This does basically fit with the current implementation.
(I'm not arguing either way there, just sharing that info I found when looking into this for you).
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM Sylvie Duchateau < sduchateau@...> wrote:
Hello,
We have been working on a word document using decorative images to illustrate different items.
The images do not bring anything and have been marked as decorative images in the word document.
Note that the MS Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.
Nevertheless, NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does not ignore them.
AS tagging an image as decorative should allow screen readers to ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as decorative ?
We use Office 365.
Thank you in advance
Best
Sylvie
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
Hello Quentin and all,
Thank you for your explanations.
I was confused because in HTML, decorative images are marked as such, with empty alt attribute so that they are fully ignored by screen readers.
In the case of my document, each tool that is described has a screen shot from the tool which is spoken as decorative image by NVDA.
The document contains more than 20 tools and I think it is disturbing and noisy to hear decorative image, decorative image and so on…
It takes more time to read the document when it is full of decorative images.
So may be it is worth writing a ticket so that users can have the choice between hearing nothing and hearing the text “decorative image”.
It would be interesting to hear what other users prefer.
Best
Sylvie
De : nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
De la part de Quentin Christensen via groups.io
Envoyé : mardi 1 mars 2022 11:04
À : nvda@nvda.groups.io
Objet : Re: [nvda] NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?
Sylvie,
It would be worth writing an issue for this with your proposed outcome (possibly ignoring such images when using say all?)
Note that reading Microsoft documentation on alt text says:
Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add visual interest but aren't informative, you can mark them as such without needing to write any alt text. Examples of objects that should be marked as decorative are stylistic borders. People using screen readers
will hear that these objects are decorative so they know they aren’t missing any important information. You can mark your visuals as decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.
Which clearly indicates that my screen reader will report that the image exists but that it is decorative. This does basically fit with the current implementation.
(I'm not arguing either way there, just sharing that info I found when looking into this for you).
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM Sylvie Duchateau < sduchateau@...> wrote:
Hello,
We have been working on a word document using decorative images to illustrate different items.
The images do not bring anything and have been marked as decorative images in the word document.
Note that the MS Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.
Nevertheless, NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does not ignore them.
AS tagging an image as decorative should allow screen readers to ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged
as decorative ?
We use Office 365.
Thank you in advance
Best
Sylvie
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
I have submitted a Github ticket on the issue of too much
unnecessary information such as this being spoken by default. I
discuss the announcement of all sorts of shapes appearing for
emphasis or decoration on web pages and perhaps elsewhere, and
announcement of figure, and of emphasis.
Those interested may read and comment on the issue here:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/13407
If people are annoyed by this behavior and don't complain in
comments to this issue, it is far less likely any change will
occur. I doubt it will unless there is a good deal of complaint.
Gene
On 3/1/2022 7:17 AM, Sylvie Duchateau
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello Quentin and all,
Thank you for your
explanations.
I was confused because
in HTML, decorative images are marked as such, with empty
alt attribute so that they are fully ignored by screen
readers.
In the case of my
document, each tool that is described has a screen shot from
the tool which is spoken as decorative image by NVDA.
The document contains
more than 20 tools and I think it is disturbing and noisy to
hear decorative image, decorative image and so on…
It takes more time to
read the document when it is full of decorative images.
So may be it is worth
writing a ticket so that users can have the choice between
hearing nothing and hearing the text “decorative image”.
It would be interesting
to hear what other users prefer.
Best
Sylvie
Sylvie,
It would be worth writing an issue for
this with your proposed outcome (possibly ignoring such
images when using say all?)
Note that reading Microsoft
documentation on alt text says:
Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add visual
interest but aren't informative, you can mark them as such
without needing to write any alt text. Examples of objects
that should be marked as decorative are stylistic borders.
People using screen readers will hear that these objects
are decorative so they know they aren’t missing any
important information. You can mark your visuals as
decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.
Which clearly indicates that my screen
reader will report that the image exists but that it is
decorative. This does basically fit with the current
implementation.
(I'm not arguing either way there, just
sharing that info I found when looking into this for you).
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM Sylvie
Duchateau <sduchateau@...>
wrote:
Hello,
We have been
working on a word document using decorative images
to illustrate different items.
The images do
not bring anything and have been marked as
decorative images in the word document.
Note that the MS
Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.
Nevertheless,
NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does
not ignore them.
AS tagging an
image as decorative should allow screen readers to
ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen
readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as
decorative ?
We use Office
365.
Thank you in
advance
Best
Sylvie
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
Gene,
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you please create one issue for each problem. If a change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be technically different from how it deals with figures for instance. Also, saying "it reads too much" describes your frustration with it, but not how it could be improved. In the case of decorative images, I actually started to write up an issue, but then as I noted in my reply on this thread, the behaviour IS actually basically what Microsoft describe they want. So while there might be ways of improving the presentation to users, in fact it is not immediately clear what is being done incorrectly here, which is why I passed it back to Sylvie (or you, or anyone) to create an issue which describes the issue and the solution. On the web, where a page is read only, it might be fine to completely ignore decorative images, but in Word, a way would need to be distinguished to determine when you were reading the page as a user consuming the content, and when you were trying to edit the page to maybe alter those decorative images, for instance.
Quentin.
On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:52 AM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
I have submitted a Github ticket on the issue of too much
unnecessary information such as this being spoken by default. I
discuss the announcement of all sorts of shapes appearing for
emphasis or decoration on web pages and perhaps elsewhere, and
announcement of figure, and of emphasis.
Those interested may read and comment on the issue here:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/13407
If people are annoyed by this behavior and don't complain in
comments to this issue, it is far less likely any change will
occur. I doubt it will unless there is a good deal of complaint.
Gene
On 3/1/2022 7:17 AM, Sylvie Duchateau
wrote:
Hello Quentin and all,
Thank you for your
explanations.
I was confused because
in HTML, decorative images are marked as such, with empty
alt attribute so that they are fully ignored by screen
readers.
In the case of my
document, each tool that is described has a screen shot from
the tool which is spoken as decorative image by NVDA.
The document contains
more than 20 tools and I think it is disturbing and noisy to
hear decorative image, decorative image and so on…
It takes more time to
read the document when it is full of decorative images.
So may be it is worth
writing a ticket so that users can have the choice between
hearing nothing and hearing the text “decorative image”.
It would be interesting
to hear what other users prefer.
Best
Sylvie
Sylvie,
It would be worth writing an issue for
this with your proposed outcome (possibly ignoring such
images when using say all?)
Note that reading Microsoft
documentation on alt text says:
Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add visual
interest but aren't informative, you can mark them as such
without needing to write any alt text. Examples of objects
that should be marked as decorative are stylistic borders.
People using screen readers will hear that these objects
are decorative so they know they aren’t missing any
important information. You can mark your visuals as
decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.
Which clearly indicates that my screen
reader will report that the image exists but that it is
decorative. This does basically fit with the current
implementation.
(I'm not arguing either way there, just
sharing that info I found when looking into this for you).
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM Sylvie
Duchateau <sduchateau@...>
wrote:
Hello,
We have been
working on a word document using decorative images
to illustrate different items.
The images do
not bring anything and have been marked as
decorative images in the word document.
Note that the MS
Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.
Nevertheless,
NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does
not ignore them.
AS tagging an
image as decorative should allow screen readers to
ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen
readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as
decorative ?
We use Office
365.
Thank you in
advance
Best
Sylvie
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 06:32 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you please create one issue for each problem. If a change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be technically different from how it deals with figures for instance.
- Quentin, Now having read the ticket, I have to say that I am disappointed that it has been closed as "too vague." The folks who read GitHub issues created by end users will very often have to break these out into separate issues when that's thought necessary. The line in that ticket that says, " this sort of material should be off by default. users advanced enough will learn about turning announcements on they want" clearly indicates that for "that sort of material" the announcement of same should be toggle-able by the end user, and that the default state would be preferred to be "off" by the person reporting it. A concise list of examples of "this sort of material" was provided. It may not necesarily be exhaustive, but it is clear. Even if I had created this issue, I have no way of knowing which among these things may be handled by one module of NVDA versus another, and no end user should be expected to. The actual issue is clear, and the desired outcome is equally clear: Make the announcement of the items listed as examples, plus related ones that may not be in that list that the programmers should recognize, toggle-able by the end user and make the default toggle for announcement be off. It is a grave mistake to expect those reporting issues to do so as though they are developers. That's not their job, and it never should be. It was a clear issue statement, with examples, and the desired solution/outcome pretty clearly stated as well.
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Fair point, and I didn't intend to imply that we expect end users reporting issues to be able to know how NVDA processes different things. In this case, however, I had specifically provided a good amount of information to the list about why the behaviour, in terms of decorative images, was as it was, and illustrated the need for defining when it should be read or not. The examples given were in completely different contexts:
- Announcement of "figure" on web pages specifically. - Announcement of "decorative images" in Word specifically. - Reporting of shapes such as as right pointing triangle (in what context? I have no way of knowing, and I'm not even sure what kind of shapes we're talking about here. This is where an example is really useful - tell me how to insert such a shape in my word document, or give me a URL of a web page which has such a shape on it for instance.
It is fantastic to have people reporting images, but it is equally important to have those issues described as clearly as possible. After all, if the core NVDA developers had experienced the issue you are experiencing and been frustrated by it as well.... it would likely already have been written up. So assume the people reading the issue you write up, either haven't experienced the problem (and this is where including version numbers are important - maybe it's only an issue on a certain version of Office, or Windows, or a particular build of Office ON a certain build of Windows) - or maybe the person reading the issue likes the way it is, in which case, it's important to be clear on why it is a problem for you.
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 06:32 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you please create one issue for each problem. If a change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be technically different from how it deals with figures for instance.
-
Quentin,
Now having read the ticket, I have to say that I am disappointed that it has been closed as "too vague."
The folks who read GitHub issues created by end users will very often have to break these out into separate issues when that's thought necessary.
The line in that ticket that says, "this sort of material should be off by default. users advanced enough will learn about turning announcements on they want" clearly indicates that for "that sort of material" the announcement of same should be toggle-able by the end user, and that the default state would be preferred to be "off" by the person reporting it.
A concise list of examples of "this sort of material" was provided. It may not necesarily be exhaustive, but it is clear.
Even if I had created this issue, I have no way of knowing which among these things may be handled by one module of NVDA versus another, and no end user should be expected to.
The actual issue is clear, and the desired outcome is equally clear: Make the announcement of the items listed as examples, plus related ones that may not be in that list that the programmers should recognize, toggle-able by the end user and make the default toggle for announcement be off.
It is a grave mistake to expect those reporting issues to do so as though they are developers. That's not their job, and it never should be. It was a clear issue statement, with examples, and the desired solution/outcome pretty clearly stated as well.
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
Quentin Christensen wrote: [on the web] it might be fine to completely ignore decorative images, but in
Word, a way would need to be distinguished to determine when you were reading the page as a user consuming the content, and when you were trying to edit the
page to maybe alter those decorative images, for instance. In thinking about the same question, I had one possible idea. In NVDA document presentation settings, add options to: * Ignore decorative images in browse mode, and * Ignore decorative images during say all. It seems like those would largely address the original issue, although never having come across decorative images in such abundance that they caused distraction, I could be missing the mark. N.B. and no, I will not propose that in a GitHub issue. I don't have this problem, and am therefore not the best to propose an official solution. But if the above is viable, feel free to run with it. Luke
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Sylvie, I think screen shots are not decorative. Indeed, they can
provide valuable information, especially if the contents of the screen
shot could be described adequately. When I was doing computer
forensics training, I had to find a solution to read screen shots so I
knew what to look for when using various tools. Reading those is far
from a good time, & descriptions would therefore be good. Even if I
describe a screen shot in curricula I write, I still have an alt text
that says "screen shot of the bla bla bla screen illustrating concept
x y z.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 3/1/22, Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote: Quentin Christensen wrote:
[on the web] it might be fine to completely ignore decorative images, but
in
Word, a way would need to be distinguished to determine when you were
reading the page as a user consuming the content, and when you were trying
to edit the
page to maybe alter those decorative images, for instance. In thinking about the same question, I had one possible idea.
In NVDA document presentation settings, add options to:
* Ignore decorative images in browse mode, and
* Ignore decorative images during say all.
It seems like those would largely address the original issue, although never
having come across decorative images in such abundance that they caused
distraction, I could be missing the mark.
N.B. and no, I will not propose that in a GitHub issue. I don't have this
problem, and am therefore not the best to propose an official solution. But
if
the above is viable, feel free to run with it.
Luke
-- Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to: wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs& check out my sites at www.brightstarsweb.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com
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I am not addressing you, as a developer, in a disrespectful way
but I am strongly presenting my disagreement. You may wish to
comment further.
The issues may have to be dealt with differently from a technical
standpoint but from a user's standpoint, the issue is exactly the
same, hearing too much unnecessary and distracting verbiage with no
way or no reasonable way to turn such announcements off. I may
write each as an issue but I would just be repeating the same thing
for the different material, one for shapes and one for decorative
images, which appears to me, from a user standpoint, to be dividing
the issue and making it less likely to be seen as a unified problem
about what is spoken and why. I strongly believe that, whatever the
technical differences, the issue is the same. Dividing it dilutes
the issue. Whether its hearing figure with no way to turn it off,
perhaps forty or fifty or more shapes that will be announced if
encountered, or decorative images, its still all unnecessary and
distracting verbiage, on by default, and with no way or no
reasonable way to turn it off.
Why is the issue different in Word? In Word, if someone wants to
read and not edit decorative images, the issue is the same as
reading a web page, with no intention to change the page and not
wanting to hear such verbiage.
Gene
On 3/1/2022 5:32 PM, Quentin
Christensen wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Gene,
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you
please create one issue for each problem. If a change was to
be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be
technically different from how it deals with figures for
instance. Also, saying "it reads too much" describes your
frustration with it, but not how it could be improved. In the
case of decorative images, I actually started to write up an
issue, but then as I noted in my reply on this thread, the
behaviour IS actually basically what Microsoft describe they
want. So while there might be ways of improving the
presentation to users, in fact it is not immediately clear
what is being done incorrectly here, which is why I passed it
back to Sylvie (or you, or anyone) to create an issue which
describes the issue and the solution. On the web, where a
page is read only, it might be fine to completely ignore
decorative images, but in Word, a way would need to be
distinguished to determine when you were reading the page as a
user consuming the content, and when you were trying to edit
the page to maybe alter those decorative images, for instance.
Quentin.
On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:52 AM
Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
I have submitted a Github ticket on the issue of too
much unnecessary information such as this being spoken by
default. I discuss the announcement of all sorts of
shapes appearing for emphasis or decoration on web pages
and perhaps elsewhere, and announcement of figure, and of
emphasis.
Those interested may read and comment on the issue here:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/13407
If people are annoyed by this behavior and don't complain
in comments to this issue, it is far less likely any
change will occur. I doubt it will unless there is a good
deal of complaint.
Gene
On 3/1/2022 7:17 AM, Sylvie Duchateau wrote:
Hello Quentin and all,
Thank you for
your explanations.
I was confused
because in HTML, decorative images are marked as
such, with empty alt attribute so that they are
fully ignored by screen readers.
In the case of
my document, each tool that is described has a
screen shot from the tool which is spoken as
decorative image by NVDA.
The document
contains more than 20 tools and I think it is
disturbing and noisy to hear decorative image,
decorative image and so on…
It takes more
time to read the document when it is full of
decorative images.
So may be it is
worth writing a ticket so that users can have the
choice between hearing nothing and hearing the text
“decorative image”.
It would be
interesting to hear what other users prefer.
Best
Sylvie
Sylvie,
It would be worth writing an
issue for this with your proposed outcome
(possibly ignoring such images when using say
all?)
Note that reading Microsoft
documentation on alt text says:
Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add
visual interest but aren't informative, you can
mark them as such without needing to write any alt
text. Examples of objects that should be marked as
decorative are stylistic borders. People using
screen readers will hear that these objects are
decorative so they know they aren’t missing any
important information. You can mark your visuals
as decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.
Which clearly indicates that my
screen reader will report that the image exists
but that it is decorative. This does basically
fit with the current implementation.
(I'm not arguing either way
there, just sharing that info I found when looking
into this for you).
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM
Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@...>
wrote:
Hello,
We have
been working on a word document using
decorative images to illustrate different
items.
The
images do not bring anything and have been
marked as decorative images in the word
document.
Note
that the MS Word accessibility checker did
not find any errors.
Nevertheless,
NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic
and does not ignore them.
AS
tagging an image as decorative should allow
screen readers to ignore the image, do you
know of an issue for screen readers to
vocalize graphics that are tagged as
decorative ?
We use
Office 365.
Thank
you in advance
Best
Sylvie
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support
Manager
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
As an example of shapes, I've culled these from the
symbol/;pronunciation dialog. I haven't tried to figure out how
many such shapes are there. I wouldn't be surprised if there are
fifty, maybe many more.
These should not be spoken by default. I think a lot of people
are likely to know what I am referring to as shapes but, as I
said, I'll add some as examples but I don't think the topic should
have been closed in part because I didn't provide a list. I'll
add some if desired.
▲
▴
▵
▼
◄
☝
👈
👈 backhand index pointing left medium skin tone
Gene
On 3/1/2022 6:02 PM, Quentin
Christensen wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Fair point, and I didn't intend to imply that we
expect end users reporting issues to be able to know how NVDA
processes different things. In this case, however, I had
specifically provided a good amount of information to the list
about why the behaviour, in terms of decorative images, was as
it was, and illustrated the need for defining when it should be
read or not. The examples given were in completely different
contexts:
- Announcement of "figure" on web pages specifically.
- Announcement of "decorative images" in Word specifically.
- Reporting of shapes such as as right pointing triangle
(in what context? I have no way of knowing, and I'm not even
sure what kind of shapes we're talking about here. This is
where an example is really useful - tell me how to insert such
a shape in my word document, or give me a URL of a web page
which has such a shape on it for instance.
It is fantastic to have people reporting images, but it is
equally important to have those issues described as clearly as
possible. After all, if the core NVDA developers had
experienced the issue you are experiencing and been frustrated
by it as well.... it would likely already have been written
up. So assume the people reading the issue you write up,
either haven't experienced the problem (and this is where
including version numbers are important - maybe it's only an
issue on a certain version of Office, or Windows, or a
particular build of Office ON a certain build of Windows) - or
maybe the person reading the issue likes the way it is, in
which case, it's important to be clear on why it is a problem
for you.
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 06:32 PM,
Quentin Christensen wrote:
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but
can you please create one issue for each problem. If a
change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images,
it would be technically different from how it deals with
figures for instance.
-
Quentin,
Now having read the ticket, I have to say that I am
disappointed that it has been closed as "too vague."
The folks who read GitHub issues created by end users will
very often have to break these out into separate issues when
that's thought necessary.
The line in that ticket that says, "this sort of
material should be off by default. users advanced enough
will learn about turning announcements on they want"
clearly indicates that for "that sort of material" the
announcement of same should be toggle-able by the end user,
and that the default state would be preferred to be "off" by
the person reporting it.
A concise list of examples of "this sort of material" was
provided. It may not necesarily be exhaustive, but it is
clear.
Even if I had created this issue, I have no way of knowing
which among these things may be handled by one module of NVDA
versus another, and no end user should be expected to.
The actual issue is clear, and the desired outcome is equally
clear: Make the announcement of the items listed as examples,
plus related ones that may not be in that list that the
programmers should recognize, toggle-able by the end user and
make the default toggle for announcement be off.
It is a grave mistake to expect those reporting issues to do
so as though they are developers. That's not their job, and
it never should be. It was a clear issue statement, with
examples, and the desired solution/outcome pretty clearly
stated as well.
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 08:20 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think screen shots are not decorative.
- I'm glad someone else said it, because I was thinking it. Screen shots may, in many instances, not be able to be succinctly described with ease, but they are not decorative in any meaningful sense. And when screen shots are included in technical publications, even if they can't be succinctly described, I think it's helpful that they are actually described as briefly as possible so that a blind reader is aware of what's in the documentation that they may wish to point a sighted colleague to or ask a sighted colleague about. There are all sorts of purely decorative graphics, but screenshots are not in that class. They serve an illustrative purpose and their presence is important to note. --
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
New York Times, February 8, 2022
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I love you Brian V--thank you! Lol. For me, they were sometimes
absolutely critical, & I wish we had better tools to extract the
information they sometimes provide.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 3/1/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote: On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 08:20 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think screen shots are not decorative.
-
I'm glad someone else said it, because I was thinking it.
Screen shots may, in many instances, not be able to be succinctly described
with ease, but they are not decorative in any meaningful sense. And when
screen shots are included in technical publications, even if they can't be
succinctly described, I think it's helpful that they are actually described
as briefly as possible so that a blind reader is aware of what's in the
documentation that they may wish to point a sighted colleague to or ask a
sighted colleague about.
There are all sorts of purely decorative graphics, but screenshots are not
in that class. They serve an illustrative purpose and their presence is
important to note.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my
responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
~ Commenter, *Evangelos* , in comments for
America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities (
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/opinion/spotify-joe-rogan-covid-free-speech.html
) ,
New York Times , February 8, 2022
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Hello Jackie,
It depends what screen shots are for.
But in my case, the screen shot was only used to illustrate the tool's name it really does not bring much for understanding the document.
Other screen shots may be used to illustrate the way you should to something: for example a screen shot of NVDA's document preferences could help illustrate what should be checked in NDVA's preferences to have NVDA say "clicable" for exemple, or to have NVDA announce the headers of table cells. Or a screen shot of the NVDA preferences could be useful to illustrate what to check to have the visual indicator be displayed.
But also in that case, I think that for people who cannot see the screen, textual explanations on the way to proceed are clearer than a screen shot.
That's why I agree with Quentin's post, saying that the user should be able to choose if she/he wants to have decorative images be spoken or not.
As Quentin wrote, having indications about the availability of a decorative image is useful when you edit the document yourselves and want to change the image or its alternative text.
But when you read the document, you don't necessarily want to hear, for the 38 decorative images in the document, decorative image, decorative image decorative image...
The goal of marking images as decorative was primarily to allow screen readers to ignore them because they are useful for decoration but unnecessary for text understanding.
The problem is that text producers often mark images as decorative that should not be decorative, and in the case of Office document, you may be willing to access the images to modify them, that's why then cannot be completely ignored by screen readers.
I am still reading the thread and agree to have this as an issue, either on Gene's issue or as a new one for MS Office documents.
Best
Sylvie
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-----Message d'origine----- De : nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> De la part de Jackie via groups.io Envoyé : mercredi 2 mars 2022 02:20 À : nvda@nvda.groups.io Objet : Re: [nvda] NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it? Sylvie, I think screen shots are not decorative. Indeed, they can provide valuable information, especially if the contents of the screen shot could be described adequately. When I was doing computer forensics training, I had to find a solution to read screen shots so I knew what to look for when using various tools. Reading those is far from a good time, & descriptions would therefore be good. Even if I describe a screen shot in curricula I write, I still have an alt text that says "screen shot of the bla bla bla screen illustrating concept x y z. On 3/1/22, Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote: Quentin Christensen wrote:
[on the web] it might be fine to completely ignore decorative images,
but in Word, a way would need to be distinguished to determine when
you were reading the page as a user consuming the content, and when
you were trying to edit the page to maybe alter those decorative
images, for instance. In thinking about the same question, I had one possible idea.
In NVDA document presentation settings, add options to:
* Ignore decorative images in browse mode, and
* Ignore decorative images during say all.
It seems like those would largely address the original issue, although
never
having come across decorative images in such abundance that they
caused distraction, I could be missing the mark.
N.B. and no, I will not propose that in a GitHub issue. I don't have
this problem, and am therefore not the best to propose an official
solution. But if the above is viable, feel free to run with it.
Luke
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Hello,
For your information, I have created an issue on that specific topic of decorative images in office applications.
See:
Handling images marked as decorative in MS office applications #13422
Best
Sylvie
De : nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
De la part de Brian Vogel via groups.io
Envoyé : mercredi 2 mars 2022 00:44
À : nvda@nvda.groups.io
Objet : Re: [nvda] NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?
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On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 06:32 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you please create one issue for each problem. If a change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be technically different from how it deals with figures for
instance.
-
Quentin,
Now having read the ticket, I have to say that I am disappointed that it has been closed as "too vague."
The folks who read GitHub issues created by end users will very often have to break these out into separate issues when that's thought necessary.
The line in that ticket that says, "this sort of material should be off by default. users advanced enough will learn about turning announcements on they want" clearly indicates
that for "that sort of material" the announcement of same should be toggle-able by the end user, and that the default state would be preferred to be "off" by the person reporting it.
A concise list of examples of "this sort of material" was provided. It may not necesarily be exhaustive, but it is clear.
Even if I had created this issue, I have no way of knowing which among these things may be handled by one module of NVDA versus another, and no end user should be expected to.
The actual issue is clear, and the desired outcome is equally clear: Make the announcement of the items listed as examples, plus related ones that may not be in that list that the programmers should recognize, toggle-able by the end user and make the default
toggle for announcement be off.
It is a grave mistake to expect those reporting issues to do so as though they are developers. That's not their job, and it never should be. It was a clear issue statement, with examples, and the desired solution/outcome pretty clearly stated as well.
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I apologize for coming in on this late. However, if this is in a
Word Document, is it going to tell the user the shape of the
object? Is the user going to have the knowledge to tell what kind
of object is on the screen?
Dave
On 3/1/2022 7:02 PM, Quentin
Christensen wrote:
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Fair point, and I didn't intend to imply that we
expect end users reporting issues to be able to know how NVDA
processes different things. In this case, however, I had
specifically provided a good amount of information to the list
about why the behaviour, in terms of decorative images, was as
it was, and illustrated the need for defining when it should be
read or not. The examples given were in completely different
contexts:
- Announcement of "figure" on web pages specifically.
- Announcement of "decorative images" in Word specifically.
- Reporting of shapes such as as right pointing triangle
(in what context? I have no way of knowing, and I'm not even
sure what kind of shapes we're talking about here. This is
where an example is really useful - tell me how to insert such
a shape in my word document, or give me a URL of a web page
which has such a shape on it for instance.
It is fantastic to have people reporting images, but it is
equally important to have those issues described as clearly as
possible. After all, if the core NVDA developers had
experienced the issue you are experiencing and been frustrated
by it as well.... it would likely already have been written
up. So assume the people reading the issue you write up,
either haven't experienced the problem (and this is where
including version numbers are important - maybe it's only an
issue on a certain version of Office, or Windows, or a
particular build of Office ON a certain build of Windows) - or
maybe the person reading the issue likes the way it is, in
which case, it's important to be clear on why it is a problem
for you.
On
Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 06:32 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but
can you please create one issue for each problem. If a
change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images,
it would be technically different from how it deals with
figures for instance.
-
Quentin,
Now having read the ticket, I have to say that I am
disappointed that it has been closed as "too vague."
The folks who read GitHub issues created by end users will
very often have to break these out into separate issues when
that's thought necessary.
The line in that ticket that says, "this sort of
material should be off by default. users advanced enough
will learn about turning announcements on they want"
clearly indicates that for "that sort of material" the
announcement of same should be toggle-able by the end user,
and that the default state would be preferred to be "off" by
the person reporting it.
A concise list of examples of "this sort of material" was
provided. It may not necesarily be exhaustive, but it is
clear.
Even if I had created this issue, I have no way of knowing
which among these things may be handled by one module of NVDA
versus another, and no end user should be expected to.
The actual issue is clear, and the desired outcome is equally
clear: Make the announcement of the items listed as examples,
plus related ones that may not be in that list that the
programmers should recognize, toggle-able by the end user and
make the default toggle for announcement be off.
It is a grave mistake to expect those reporting issues to do
so as though they are developers. That's not their job, and
it never should be. It was a clear issue statement, with
examples, and the desired solution/outcome pretty clearly
stated as well.
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
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