question about highlighting text.


Faithville
 

Ok, I have a very interesting question, if you go into focus mode with insert space. and try and highlight some text you do not hear what you are selecting.
So if you were in focus mode, and highlighted the text would it stay highlighted, or would you rather need to highlight the text in brows mode so that it would actually be highlighted? then do insert space to go into focus mode? if you needed to be in focus mode?


 

Am I safe in presuming you're talking inside of a form field as the context for the entire question?  That's not entirely clear.

My gut tells me that text selection, period, would best be done in browse mode, as it prevents any accidental changing of the text itself.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Faithville
 

See that is what I also agree with unless the edit field you enter enters into focus mode?

On 3/21/2022 10:37 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Am I safe in presuming you're talking inside of a form field as the context for the entire question?  That's not entirely clear.

My gut tells me that text selection, period, would best be done in browse mode, as it prevents any accidental changing of the text itself.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 



Gene
 

When you are in focus mode, there is no cursor except when you are in an edit field.  You aren't highlighting anything because you aren't using a cursor to move.  You are issuing movement commands that aren't doing anything.

When you are using browse mode, there is a virtual cursor so you can highlight as though you were in a document such as a word processor document.

The only way you can select text using the keyboard if you are in focus mode is to use control a for select all, copy the entire page to the clipboard, then paste the document into a word processor or text editor like Notepad and edit it there.

I do that at times if I'm sending the text of an article to someone.  Browse mode doesn't show paragraph divisions and if you select an article or a lot of text in browse mode, then copy and paste it into a document, it will all look like one very long paragraph and that is very hard for sighted people to read, according to what I've been told.

I haven't thought much about this, but NVDA needs a way to copy text while in browse mode that preserves paragraphs.

At present, I suspect a lot of blind people who don't know they are sending material to sighted people with no paragraph divisions are regularly doing so.

Gene

On 3/21/2022 9:33 AM, Faithville via groups.io wrote:
Ok, I have a very interesting question, if you go into focus mode with insert space. and try and highlight some text you do not hear what you are selecting.
So if you were in focus mode, and highlighted the text would it stay highlighted, or would you rather need to highlight the text in brows mode so that it would actually be highlighted? then do insert space to go into focus mode? if you needed to be in focus mode?




Faithville
 

Ok, if you were to select text in focus mode, and want to place text before the highlighted text then how would you go about doing this without unhighlighting the already highlighted text?

On 3/21/2022 10:37 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Am I safe in presuming you're talking inside of a form field as the context for the entire question?  That's not entirely clear.

My gut tells me that text selection, period, would best be done in browse mode, as it prevents any accidental changing of the text itself.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 



 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:48 AM, Gene wrote:
I haven't thought much about this, but NVDA needs a way to copy text while in browse mode that preserves paragraphs.
-
I can't recall at this moment what it's called/how it's done, but at least on web pages, and I'd have to believe in Word or other word processor documents, there is a technique to tell NVDA to copy from the source material, not the virtual cursor, and that retains the source formatting.

Someone else will have to chime in on what that's called how that's done.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:49 AM, Faithville wrote:
Ok, if you were to select text in focus mode, and want to place text before the highlighted text then how would you go about doing this without unhighlighting the already highlighted text?
-
Why would it matter?

The sequence for pasting before is not, ever, having a full chunk of text selected and pasting.  Doing that replaces the highlighted text.  It's been that way since time immemorial.

The sequence is:
1. Select (highlight) text to be copied or cut.
2. Issue copy or cut command to place that text on clipboard.
3. Position insertion point immediately in front of (or behind) where you want the text inserted.  Hence the name insertion point.  If the copied text remained highlighted up to this point, it gets unselected/unhighlighted now.
4. Paste.

If you paste when other text is selected/highlighted it completely replaces that text, it does not paste in front of it.  If you want something pasted in front of it then you position your insertion point immediately in front of that text, then paste.  Placing the insertion point deselects the text as part of that process.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Gene
 

You wouldn't select text and try to then place text before it.  Selecting text is for doing something like copying it to the clipboard or deleting it.  If you select text, then type, all the selected text would disappear and text you type would start to be written in the same place. 

All you have to do is move to the place you want to insert text and type.  No selecting.  that's what you do in any word processor or text editor and you do exactly the same thing in focus mode.  There is a real cursor in an edit field in focus mode and you write and edit what you write exactly as in a word processor or text editor.

Gene
On 3/21/2022 9:49 AM, Faithville via groups.io wrote:

Ok, if you were to select text in focus mode, and want to place text before the highlighted text then how would you go about doing this without unhighlighting the already highlighted text?

On 3/21/2022 10:37 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Am I safe in presuming you're talking inside of a form field as the context for the entire question?  That's not entirely clear.

My gut tells me that text selection, period, would best be done in browse mode, as it prevents any accidental changing of the text itself.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 




Gene
 

That's a JAWS option, not an NVDA option.

Gene

On 3/21/2022 9:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:48 AM, Gene wrote:
I haven't thought much about this, but NVDA needs a way to copy text while in browse mode that preserves paragraphs.
-
I can't recall at this moment what it's called/how it's done, but at least on web pages, and I'd have to believe in Word or other word processor documents, there is a technique to tell NVDA to copy from the source material, not the virtual cursor, and that retains the source formatting.

Someone else will have to chime in on what that's called how that's done.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 



 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:01 AM, Gene wrote:
That's a JAWS option, not an NVDA option.

-
Well, I have no issue selecting text in an MS-Word document, using the selection from keyboard technique I documented here, Selecting Text Using Windows Keyboard Shortcuts, and pasting into another blank Word document, using NVDA and never touching the mouse, and having all formatting preserved provided I make sure to choose the "Preserve source formatting" post-paste option (or set that as the default paste option).

After every paste in all of the more recent versions of word, a tiny "hover over" dialog box shows up that does not get announced, but that can always be accessed by hitting CTRL immediately after the paste.  The default paste style in MS-Word is to use the destination file's formatting settings, so if those are different than the source file's you lose most of what you had as far as fonts, colors, etc.  However, you can choose the "keep source formatting" option and all is preserved.

This isn't really an NVDA function, or any screen reader function, but a function of MS Word.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Gene
 

But I'm talking about a browser. 

Gene

On 3/21/2022 10:14 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:01 AM, Gene wrote:
That's a JAWS option, not an NVDA option.

-
Well, I have no issue selecting text in an MS-Word document, using the selection from keyboard technique I documented here, Selecting Text Using Windows Keyboard Shortcuts, and pasting into another blank Word document, using NVDA and never touching the mouse, and having all formatting preserved provided I make sure to choose the "Preserve source formatting" post-paste option (or set that as the default paste option).

After every paste in all of the more recent versions of word, a tiny "hover over" dialog box shows up that does not get announced, but that can always be accessed by hitting CTRL immediately after the paste.  The default paste style in MS-Word is to use the destination file's formatting settings, so if those are different than the source file's you lose most of what you had as far as fonts, colors, etc.  However, you can choose the "keep source formatting" option and all is preserved.

This isn't really an NVDA function, or any screen reader function, but a function of MS Word.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 



 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:24 AM, Gene wrote:
But I'm talking about a browser. 
-
Well, the only way I can get something, using keyboard only, that preserves formatting (and it's not perfect, as in I get images, for instance, sometimes duplicated twice) is to do a CTRL + A (Select all) when focus is on the web browser displaying the web page, and pasting into MS-Word afterward.  And that's only if NVDA is not running.  If it is running, I need to use the pass-through command (NVDA + F2) immediately prior to issuing the Select all command so that it is the web browser itself doing the selecting rather than NVDA doing the selecting in the virtual buffer.   It might be possible to put NVDA to sleep and then select via keyboard for chunks, but even if that worked it would be useless to someone who can't see as you'd have no way of knowing what it is you're selecting.

I can't even figure out a way to select text on a webpage as displayed using the keyboard in "chunks," and that's without regard to whether the screen reader is running at the time or not.  It's an all or nothing affair with select all.  I can do it with a mouse, though, so I suspect there is some "secret keyboard shortcut" that's context specific that I either never knew or have long ago forgotten.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Gene
 



On 3/21/2022 10:44 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:24 AM, Gene wrote: > > But I'm talking about a browser. > > - Well, the only way I can get something, using keyboard only, that > preserves formatting (and it's not perfect, as in I get images, for > instance, sometimes duplicated twice) is to do a CTRL + A (Select > all) when focus is on the web browser displaying the web page, and > pasting into MS-Word afterward. And that's only if NVDA is not > running. If it is running, I need to use the pass-through command > (NVDA + F2) immediately prior to issuing the Select all command so > that it is the web browser itself doing the selecting rather than > NVDA doing the selecting in the virtual buffer. It might be > possible to put NVDA to sleep and then select via keyboard for > chunks, but even if that worked it would be useless to someone who > can't see as you'd have no way of knowing what it is you're > selecting. > > I can't even figure out a way to select text on a webpage as > displayed using the keyboard in "chunks," and that's without regard > to whether the screen reader is running at the time or not. It's an > all or nothing affair with select all. I can do it with a mouse, > though, so I suspect there is some "secret keyboard shortcut" that's > context specific that I either never knew or have long ago forgotten. > -- > > Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 > > /Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my > responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence. / ~ > Commenter, *Evangelos*, in comments for / America 2022: > Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities > <https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/opinion/spotify-joe-rogan-covid-free-speech.html>/, > > > /        New York Times/, February 8, 2022

If you turn off browse mode when you are on a web page and NVDA is running, it will be selected just as though NVDA weren't running. 

Gene


Gene
 

For some reason, my last message wasn't composed properly.

If you turn off browse mode and use control a, you can select all as though NVDA weren't running.

GeneOn 3/21/2022 10:44 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:


 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:56 AM, Gene wrote:
If you turn off browse mode and use control a, you can select all as though NVDA weren't running.
-
Then there are apparently two ways you can force that selection to be performed by the browser itself rather than NVDA using the virtual cursor.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Nermin
 

Hi,


to highlight text and copy it from within a browser, use NVDA+F9 to set the start marker, then move to where you want the end of your text selection to be. Press NVDA+F10 to actually perform the selection, then press it again twice quickly to copy the text to the clipboard.


The result will be something like this:


A Free Solution
We have spent the last 12 years developing the global solution: a free, high quality screen reader, accessible to all! We have already enabled 100,000+ people to gain freedom, education and employment!


 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 12:07 PM, Nermin wrote:
The result will be something like this:


A Free Solution
We have spent the last 12 years developing the global solution: a free, high quality screen reader, accessible to all! We have already enabled 100,000+ people to gain freedom, education and employment!
-
The thing is, if the part that starts, "A Free Solution," is what you were trying to demonstrate, it's all showing up as what amounts to plain text.  There is no bold, italic, etc., in any of it.

Not knowing what the original actually was, I cannot say or not whether any formatting was lost or not.  But this would not be a good example to demonstrate preservation of formatting if it did not, indeed, have any to begin with.  If it did, it was not preserved.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Gene
 

that doesn't solve the problem and there is no advantage to doing that.  I experimented just now.  If you are copying that way in browse mode, there are no paragraph divisions.  If you turn off browse mode and use document review to copy text, again, there are no paragraph divisions.  If I use select all and copy using control c, there are paragraph divisions.

Gene

On 3/21/2022 11:07 AM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi,


to highlight text and copy it from within a browser, use NVDA+F9 to set the start marker, then move to where you want the end of your text selection to be. Press NVDA+F10 to actually perform the selection, then press it again twice quickly to copy the text to the clipboard.


The result will be something like this:


A Free Solution
We have spent the last 12 years developing the global solution: a free, high quality screen reader, accessible to all! We have already enabled 100,000+ people to gain freedom, education and employment!





Gene
 

I'll probably create a Github ticket for the problem.  I haven't found any.  I really wonder how many NVDA users copy things from the Internet to send to people and have no idea that there are no paragraph divisions.

Gene

On 3/21/2022 11:28 AM, Gene wrote:
that doesn't solve the problem and there is no advantage to doing that.  I experimented just now.  If you are copying that way in browse mode, there are no paragraph divisions.  If you turn off browse mode and use document review to copy text, again, there are no paragraph divisions.  If I use select all and copy using control c, there are paragraph divisions.

Gene

On 3/21/2022 11:07 AM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi,


to highlight text and copy it from within a browser, use NVDA+F9 to set the start marker, then move to where you want the end of your text selection to be. Press NVDA+F10 to actually perform the selection, then press it again twice quickly to copy the text to the clipboard.


The result will be something like this:


A Free Solution
We have spent the last 12 years developing the global solution: a free, high quality screen reader, accessible to all! We have already enabled 100,000+ people to gain freedom, education and employment!





 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 12:33 PM, Gene wrote:
I really wonder how many NVDA users copy things from the Internet to send to people and have no idea that there are no paragraph divisions.
-
Gene,

You need to be very circumspect before doing this.  Even when I copy from a webpage using NVDA's virtual cursor and a CTRL+A, when I paste into Word I absolutely do have paragraphs, and if I turn on paragraph markers, they are there at the end of each word of each paragraph.

I am not quite certain what it is that you believe is missing, but it does not appear to be paragraph divisions.  The things like font face, size, etc., though are gone.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022