trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders


Kenny Cheung
 

Hi I'm using the latest version of NVDA, and when I press F2 on any  file in my downloads it doesn't bring up the edit field. I don't see it their, but when I hold down right arrow, and pres left arrow and delete everything their and rename the file, it shows up as the knew renamed. file. this happens in my downloads and documents folders, but not on my desktop. the version of windows I have is Microsoft Windows 10 Home 10.0.19044 Build 19044

I'm running NVDA 2022.2.2

Kenny


Nermin
 

Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin


Kenny Cheung
 

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin





Gene
 

Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin













Kenny Cheung
 

the thing is, I can't right arrow to go to each character if I'm trying to change a letter

On 8/30/2022 7:52 PM, Gene wrote:

Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:
I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin













Gene
 

Try the following:
Issue f2.
Then open the context menu.
After that close it with escape.
You will be back in the rename edit field.
See if you can move around now.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:11 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

the thing is, I can't right arrow to go to each character if I'm trying to change a letter

On 8/30/2022 7:52 PM, Gene wrote:
Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:
I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin














mike mcglashon
 

Quoting:

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

End quote:

 

Wow, what an ironic statement that is;

After all, a screen reader is supposed to tell us everything;

I would never dream that I would have to assume that because a screen reader fails to feedback that something has happened.

If that is the case, then why would we even use screen readers at all;

Especially if they are not required to tell us everything.

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 7:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:

Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin









 


Gene
 

A screen-reader is not the original material.  You aren't looking at the screen.  If a screen-reader didn't render things accurately in general, there wouldn't be much point in using it.  A properly designed screen-reader usually will.  That doesn't mean that it always does.  If the screen-reader crashes and you don't hear speech, do you assume the screen has gone blank or do you try to determine if the screen-reader isn't running or not running properly?  You may just use the restart command but the point is, you are not assuming that no speech from the screen-reader means that the computer isn't displaying material on screen and you don't assume it isn't doing so properly.

It isn't an ironic statement at all.  It is simply expressing an inherent thing to be kept in mind.  You are not working directly with the original visual material.  You are using a program to present that material and that program may have bugs or limitations, such as not being able to announce text that is an image.  OCR is used to try to overcome the text in an image problem.  But because your screen-reader doesn't speak or send to a Braille display text in an image, that no re;presentation of text is present.

Gene


On 8/30/2022 7:40 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Quoting:

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

End quote:

 

Wow, what an ironic statement that is;

After all, a screen reader is supposed to tell us everything;

I would never dream that I would have to assume that because a screen reader fails to feedback that something has happened.

If that is the case, then why would we even use screen readers at all;

Especially if they are not required to tell us everything.

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 7:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:

Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin









 



Gene
 

I meant to say that because your screen-reader doesn't announce text in an image, you don't assume that no representation of text is present.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:52 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

A screen-reader is not the original material.  You aren't looking at the screen.  If a screen-reader didn't render things accurately in general, there wouldn't be much point in using it.  A properly designed screen-reader usually will.  That doesn't mean that it always does.  If the screen-reader crashes and you don't hear speech, do you assume the screen has gone blank or do you try to determine if the screen-reader isn't running or not running properly?  You may just use the restart command but the point is, you are not assuming that no speech from the screen-reader means that the computer isn't displaying material on screen and you don't assume it isn't doing so properly.

It isn't an ironic statement at all.  It is simply expressing an inherent thing to be kept in mind.  You are not working directly with the original visual material.  You are using a program to present that material and that program may have bugs or limitations, such as not being able to announce text that is an image.  OCR is used to try to overcome the text in an image problem.  But because your screen-reader doesn't speak or send to a Braille display text in an image, that no re;presentation of text is present.

Gene


On 8/30/2022 7:40 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Quoting:

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

End quote:

 

Wow, what an ironic statement that is;

After all, a screen reader is supposed to tell us everything;

I would never dream that I would have to assume that because a screen reader fails to feedback that something has happened.

If that is the case, then why would we even use screen readers at all;

Especially if they are not required to tell us everything.

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 7:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:

Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin









 




Brian's Mail list account
 

Is this the downloads folder inside the browser? I think that particular display is non standard.
Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenny Cheung" <kennycheung0@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 10:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders


Hi I'm using the latest version of NVDA, and when I press F2 on any file in my downloads it doesn't bring up the edit field. I don't see it their, but when I hold down right arrow, and pres left arrow and delete everything their and rename the file, it shows up as the knew renamed. file. this happens in my downloads and documents folders, but not on my desktop. the version of windows I have is Microsoft Windows 10 Home 10.0.19044 Build 19044

I'm running NVDA 2022.2.2

Kenny





Brian's Mail list account
 

Does the old context menu option still exist on your version of windows? I tend to rename using that.
That seems to work in all folder types except those used by some software which are not strictly explorer standard views. Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenny Cheung" <kennycheung0@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders


I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin







Brian's Mail list account
 

To be honest, there are occasions where although its supposed to work, due to some choice of view or bug in the underlying software, what is expected to be read is not, and this applies to every screenreader I've ever tried. Windows is complicated and often a screenreader can be confused if a condition expected is not met completely. I used to get this a lot in Supernova, where certain menus only read if it was maximised and a background task was minimised.
Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "mike mcglashon" <michael.mcglashon@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders


Quoting:

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened.

End quote:



Wow, what an ironic statement that is;

After all, a screen reader is supposed to tell us everything;

I would never dream that I would have to assume that because a screen reader fails to feedback that something has happened.

If that is the case, then why would we even use screen readers at all;

Especially if they are not required to tell us everything.





Please advise as you like.



Mike M.



Mike mcglashon

Email: <mailto:Michael.mcglashon@...> Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 7:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders



Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up. Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter. If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened.

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:



Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin


Maria S
 

Hi Brian. I was also having this problem, and using the context menu
brought the text back into focus. Thanks for that. What I'm curious
about is your description of the downloads folder as a non standard
control. Can you please explain further? Happy to take this off list
or start a new thread. Just curious.

Maria

On 8/31/22, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io
<bglists@...> wrote:
Does the old context menu option still exist on your version of windows? I
tend to rename using that.
That seems to work in all folder types except those used by some software
which are not strictly explorer standard views. Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenny Cheung" <kennycheung0@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and
documents folders


I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that
resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin













Gene
 

the f2 key takes you to exactly the same place as rename in the context menu.  This may be an instance of not being able to move with speech in an edit field that may occur at times.  The work around is usually to leave the opened field, then return to it, thus the possible solution I proposed late in the thread.  We'll see if it works.

Gene


On 8/31/2022 3:57 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:

Does the old context menu option still exist on your version of windows? I tend to rename using that.
That seems to work in all folder types except those used by some software which are not strictly explorer standard views. Brian



Gene
 

It isn't a folder.  If you use control j, you will be in an interface where you can see your past downloads and if a current one is occurring, you can see the progress of that download.  It isn't a folder and the original question wasn't asking about that.

In Thunderbird, control j takes you to a list. 
In Chrome-based browsers, you are taken to an interface that is somewhat like a web page and somewhat like a dialog.  In neither case are you placed in a folder. 

Gene
On 8/31/2022 4:05 AM, Maria S wrote:

Hi Brian. I was also having this problem, and using the context menu
brought the text back into focus. Thanks for that. What I'm curious
about is your description of the downloads folder as a non standard
control. Can you please explain further? Happy to take this off list
or start a new thread. Just curious.

Maria

On 8/31/22, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io
<bglists@...> wrote:
Does the old context menu option still exist on your version of windows? I
tend to rename using that.
 That seems to work in all folder types except those used by some software
which are not strictly explorer standard views. Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenny Cheung" <kennycheung0@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and
documents folders


I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that
resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin





















mike mcglashon
 

Gene:

 

I get that, but the screen reader still says there is an image there, it doesn’t simply remain silent.

 

And, I guess I am in the minority because I am not a real tech person, so

When the speech goes silent, I am one of those that immediately thinks the computer is broken.

And hence, I control alt delete the thing to get it back on.

 

Also, to expand upon your example of inherent bugs within a screen reader, and that I must simply accept them, this might be our problem, as customers, we have been lax with the screen reader companies; hence the makers have become lackadaisical in their updates and releases because they know we will simply accept mediocre versus excellence.

 

I do know that many on these lists completely disagree with me on this point, but it seems to me that there is a dividing line between technicians and those of us who simply drive the thing.  However, If a tech guy tells me what to do, I will do it exactly as he says, but nothing more, nothing less.  I am not of the curious type; I simply follow the directions given to me with the expectation that it will work.  Therefore, I do believe we must keep these ideologies in mind when having this discussion.

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 8:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

I meant to say that because your screen-reader doesn't announce text in an image, you don't assume that no representation of text is present.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:52 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

A screen-reader is not the original material.  You aren't looking at the screen.  If a screen-reader didn't render things accurately in general, there wouldn't be much point in using it.  A properly designed screen-reader usually will.  That doesn't mean that it always does.  If the screen-reader crashes and you don't hear speech, do you assume the screen has gone blank or do you try to determine if the screen-reader isn't running or not running properly?  You may just use the restart command but the point is, you are not assuming that no speech from the screen-reader means that the computer isn't displaying material on screen and you don't assume it isn't doing so properly.

It isn't an ironic statement at all.  It is simply expressing an inherent thing to be kept in mind.  You are not working directly with the original visual material.  You are using a program to present that material and that program may have bugs or limitations, such as not being able to announce text that is an image.  OCR is used to try to overcome the text in an image problem.  But because your screen-reader doesn't speak or send to a Braille display text in an image, that no re;presentation of text is present.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:40 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Quoting:

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

End quote:

 

Wow, what an ironic statement that is;

After all, a screen reader is supposed to tell us everything;

I would never dream that I would have to assume that because a screen reader fails to feedback that something has happened.

If that is the case, then why would we even use screen readers at all;

Especially if they are not required to tell us everything.

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 7:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:

Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin







 

 

 


Gene
 

You may be in the minority but I don't know if you are.  I have no way of knowing how many people assume that if speech stops, the whole computer is frozen.  You may now correct what you have been doing if you wish, since it is being discussed.  You can cause the computer to shut down every time you lose speech but you will lose all unsaved work.  If you regularly save your work, then you may not lose any or not much.  But you will lose unnecessary time, shutting down, opening whatever program or programs you were using, opening the file or files you were working on, and resuming work.  You might get speech back much faster if you use the restart screen-reader command NVDA offers.  I would imagine JAWS offers something similar, but I don't know.  In NVDA, the command is the run NVDA shortcut, control alt n.  There is a certain program that, when I close it, causes NVDA to freeze.  I simply issue the start NVDA shortcut command whenn that happens, and after a short pause, I have speech again and I've saved time and inconvenience.

Also, there is not the clear dividing line you state.  There are people who have no knowledge of how computers work and may not have an aptitude for working with computers in terms of trouble shooting, there are people who are not techs but have knowledge, ranging from some to a considerable amount, and there are techs. 

If you don't want to learn about computers, that is your decision and I'm not taking a position on that.  But in an area where you say you have no or almost no knowledge, and where you know a lot of people with far more knowledge disagree, bugs in screen-readers perhaps being caused by laxness, for example, you would be wise either not to have much opinion or to take seriously that those who disagree may have good reasons. 

There are bugs in all programs.  there will always be bugs in screen-readers. 

Do you know how screen-readers are tested before release?  Considering how complex the environments in which they function are, the good ones are very stable and work very well.

Gene

On 8/31/2022 7:42 AM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Gene:

 

I get that, but the screen reader still says there is an image there, it doesn’t simply remain silent.

 

And, I guess I am in the minority because I am not a real tech person, so

When the speech goes silent, I am one of those that immediately thinks the computer is broken.

And hence, I control alt delete the thing to get it back on.

 

Also, to expand upon your example of inherent bugs within a screen reader, and that I must simply accept them, this might be our problem, as customers, we have been lax with the screen reader companies; hence the makers have become lackadaisical in their updates and releases because they know we will simply accept mediocre versus excellence.

 

I do know that many on these lists completely disagree with me on this point, but it seems to me that there is a dividing line between technicians and those of us who simply drive the thing.  However, If a tech guy tells me what to do, I will do it exactly as he says, but nothing more, nothing less.  I am not of the curious type; I simply follow the directions given to me with the expectation that it will work.  Therefore, I do believe we must keep these ideologies in mind when having this discussion.

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 8:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

I meant to say that because your screen-reader doesn't announce text in an image, you don't assume that no representation of text is present.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:52 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

A screen-reader is not the original material.  You aren't looking at the screen.  If a screen-reader didn't render things accurately in general, there wouldn't be much point in using it.  A properly designed screen-reader usually will.  That doesn't mean that it always does.  If the screen-reader crashes and you don't hear speech, do you assume the screen has gone blank or do you try to determine if the screen-reader isn't running or not running properly?  You may just use the restart command but the point is, you are not assuming that no speech from the screen-reader means that the computer isn't displaying material on screen and you don't assume it isn't doing so properly.

It isn't an ironic statement at all.  It is simply expressing an inherent thing to be kept in mind.  You are not working directly with the original visual material.  You are using a program to present that material and that program may have bugs or limitations, such as not being able to announce text that is an image.  OCR is used to try to overcome the text in an image problem.  But because your screen-reader doesn't speak or send to a Braille display text in an image, that no re;presentation of text is present.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:40 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Quoting:

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

End quote:

 

Wow, what an ironic statement that is;

After all, a screen reader is supposed to tell us everything;

I would never dream that I would have to assume that because a screen reader fails to feedback that something has happened.

If that is the case, then why would we even use screen readers at all;

Especially if they are not required to tell us everything.

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 7:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:

Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin







 

 

 



mike mcglashon
 

Quoting:

Do you know how screen-readers are tested before release? 

End quote:

 

I must concede, I do not know how screen readers are tested before release; however, I bet they are tested quite extensively, which is why I take the position that I do.  If they are tested as extensively as we think, then one would believe that if known bugs are discovered, a new release would be delayed until those known bugs are ironed out.  It would be quite difficult for me to believe that the companies are allowing these releases to go out the door knowing the bugs that exist. 

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 9:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

You may be in the minority but I don't know if you are.  I have no way of knowing how many people assume that if speech stops, the whole computer is frozen.  You may now correct what you have been doing if you wish, since it is being discussed.  You can cause the computer to shut down every time you lose speech but you will lose all unsaved work.  If you regularly save your work, then you may not lose any or not much.  But you will lose unnecessary time, shutting down, opening whatever program or programs you were using, opening the file or files you were working on, and resuming work.  You might get speech back much faster if you use the restart screen-reader command NVDA offers.  I would imagine JAWS offers something similar, but I don't know.  In NVDA, the command is the run NVDA shortcut, control alt n.  There is a certain program that, when I close it, causes NVDA to freeze.  I simply issue the start NVDA shortcut command whenn that happens, and after a short pause, I have speech again and I've saved time and inconvenience.

Also, there is not the clear dividing line you state.  There are people who have no knowledge of how computers work and may not have an aptitude for working with computers in terms of trouble shooting, there are people who are not techs but have knowledge, ranging from some to a considerable amount, and there are techs. 

If you don't want to learn about computers, that is your decision and I'm not taking a position on that.  But in an area where you say you have no or almost no knowledge, and where you know a lot of people with far more knowledge disagree, bugs in screen-readers perhaps being caused by laxness, for example, you would be wise either not to have much opinion or to take seriously that those who disagree may have good reasons. 

There are bugs in all programs.  there will always be bugs in screen-readers. 

Do you know how screen-readers are tested before release?  Considering how complex the environments in which they function are, the good ones are very stable and work very well.

Gene

On 8/31/2022 7:42 AM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Gene:

 

I get that, but the screen reader still says there is an image there, it doesn’t simply remain silent.

 

And, I guess I am in the minority because I am not a real tech person, so

When the speech goes silent, I am one of those that immediately thinks the computer is broken.

And hence, I control alt delete the thing to get it back on.

 

Also, to expand upon your example of inherent bugs within a screen reader, and that I must simply accept them, this might be our problem, as customers, we have been lax with the screen reader companies; hence the makers have become lackadaisical in their updates and releases because they know we will simply accept mediocre versus excellence.

 

I do know that many on these lists completely disagree with me on this point, but it seems to me that there is a dividing line between technicians and those of us who simply drive the thing.  However, If a tech guy tells me what to do, I will do it exactly as he says, but nothing more, nothing less.  I am not of the curious type; I simply follow the directions given to me with the expectation that it will work.  Therefore, I do believe we must keep these ideologies in mind when having this discussion.

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 8:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

I meant to say that because your screen-reader doesn't announce text in an image, you don't assume that no representation of text is present.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:52 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

A screen-reader is not the original material.  You aren't looking at the screen.  If a screen-reader didn't render things accurately in general, there wouldn't be much point in using it.  A properly designed screen-reader usually will.  That doesn't mean that it always does.  If the screen-reader crashes and you don't hear speech, do you assume the screen has gone blank or do you try to determine if the screen-reader isn't running or not running properly?  You may just use the restart command but the point is, you are not assuming that no speech from the screen-reader means that the computer isn't displaying material on screen and you don't assume it isn't doing so properly.

It isn't an ironic statement at all.  It is simply expressing an inherent thing to be kept in mind.  You are not working directly with the original visual material.  You are using a program to present that material and that program may have bugs or limitations, such as not being able to announce text that is an image.  OCR is used to try to overcome the text in an image problem.  But because your screen-reader doesn't speak or send to a Braille display text in an image, that no re;presentation of text is present.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:40 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Quoting:

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

End quote:

 

Wow, what an ironic statement that is;

After all, a screen reader is supposed to tell us everything;

I would never dream that I would have to assume that because a screen reader fails to feedback that something has happened.

If that is the case, then why would we even use screen readers at all;

Especially if they are not required to tell us everything.

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 7:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:

Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin





 

 

 

 


Kenny Cheung
 

Its the regular downloads folder that windows has. I never have this issue before. Usually when I press F2, it brings up the edit field and I can right arrow through it, now I can’t right arrow through it.

Sent from Kenny’s iPhone

On Aug 31, 2022, at 04:55, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io <bglists@...> wrote:

Is this the downloads folder inside the browser? I think that particular display is non standard.
Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenny Cheung" <kennycheung0@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 10:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders


Hi I'm using the latest version of NVDA, and when I press F2 on any file in my downloads it doesn't bring up the edit field. I don't see it their, but when I hold down right arrow, and pres left arrow and delete everything their and rename the file, it shows up as the knew renamed. file. this happens in my downloads and documents folders, but not on my desktop. the version of windows I have is Microsoft Windows 10 Home 10.0.19044 Build 19044

I'm running NVDA 2022.2.2

Kenny








Gene
 

The second assertion doesn't follow the first.  Dealing with something of such complexity as a lot of computer programs, you won't find everything even if you test well for a reasonable amount of time.  And, to add complications, different computers, for reasons that may not be known, run the same program differently.  a program may run well on a certain computer and not run as well on another.  It isn't practical nor desirable to delay releasing a program beyond a certain point.  You try to find the bugs the majority or perhaps the large majority of people will encounter, but you won't find them all and there may be some that emerge later in wide use because those testing the program didn't use it in certain ways.

All complex programs have bugs.  That's one reason for minor updates, to remove bugs that are discovered in general use.  NVDA has minor updates and full updates, to new versions.  This is a common practice.

Gene
On 8/31/2022 8:29 AM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Quoting:

Do you know how screen-readers are tested before release? 

End quote:

 

I must concede, I do not know how screen readers are tested before release; however, I bet they are tested quite extensively, which is why I take the position that I do.  If they are tested as extensively as we think, then one would believe that if known bugs are discovered, a new release would be delayed until those known bugs are ironed out.  It would be quite difficult for me to believe that the companies are allowing these releases to go out the door knowing the bugs that exist. 

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 9:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

You may be in the minority but I don't know if you are.  I have no way of knowing how many people assume that if speech stops, the whole computer is frozen.  You may now correct what you have been doing if you wish, since it is being discussed.  You can cause the computer to shut down every time you lose speech but you will lose all unsaved work.  If you regularly save your work, then you may not lose any or not much.  But you will lose unnecessary time, shutting down, opening whatever program or programs you were using, opening the file or files you were working on, and resuming work.  You might get speech back much faster if you use the restart screen-reader command NVDA offers.  I would imagine JAWS offers something similar, but I don't know.  In NVDA, the command is the run NVDA shortcut, control alt n.  There is a certain program that, when I close it, causes NVDA to freeze.  I simply issue the start NVDA shortcut command whenn that happens, and after a short pause, I have speech again and I've saved time and inconvenience.

Also, there is not the clear dividing line you state.  There are people who have no knowledge of how computers work and may not have an aptitude for working with computers in terms of trouble shooting, there are people who are not techs but have knowledge, ranging from some to a considerable amount, and there are techs. 

If you don't want to learn about computers, that is your decision and I'm not taking a position on that.  But in an area where you say you have no or almost no knowledge, and where you know a lot of people with far more knowledge disagree, bugs in screen-readers perhaps being caused by laxness, for example, you would be wise either not to have much opinion or to take seriously that those who disagree may have good reasons. 

There are bugs in all programs.  there will always be bugs in screen-readers. 

Do you know how screen-readers are tested before release?  Considering how complex the environments in which they function are, the good ones are very stable and work very well.

Gene

On 8/31/2022 7:42 AM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Gene:

 

I get that, but the screen reader still says there is an image there, it doesn’t simply remain silent.

 

And, I guess I am in the minority because I am not a real tech person, so

When the speech goes silent, I am one of those that immediately thinks the computer is broken.

And hence, I control alt delete the thing to get it back on.

 

Also, to expand upon your example of inherent bugs within a screen reader, and that I must simply accept them, this might be our problem, as customers, we have been lax with the screen reader companies; hence the makers have become lackadaisical in their updates and releases because they know we will simply accept mediocre versus excellence.

 

I do know that many on these lists completely disagree with me on this point, but it seems to me that there is a dividing line between technicians and those of us who simply drive the thing.  However, If a tech guy tells me what to do, I will do it exactly as he says, but nothing more, nothing less.  I am not of the curious type; I simply follow the directions given to me with the expectation that it will work.  Therefore, I do believe we must keep these ideologies in mind when having this discussion.

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 8:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

I meant to say that because your screen-reader doesn't announce text in an image, you don't assume that no representation of text is present.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:52 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

A screen-reader is not the original material.  You aren't looking at the screen.  If a screen-reader didn't render things accurately in general, there wouldn't be much point in using it.  A properly designed screen-reader usually will.  That doesn't mean that it always does.  If the screen-reader crashes and you don't hear speech, do you assume the screen has gone blank or do you try to determine if the screen-reader isn't running or not running properly?  You may just use the restart command but the point is, you are not assuming that no speech from the screen-reader means that the computer isn't displaying material on screen and you don't assume it isn't doing so properly.

It isn't an ironic statement at all.  It is simply expressing an inherent thing to be kept in mind.  You are not working directly with the original visual material.  You are using a program to present that material and that program may have bugs or limitations, such as not being able to announce text that is an image.  OCR is used to try to overcome the text in an image problem.  But because your screen-reader doesn't speak or send to a Braille display text in an image, that no re;presentation of text is present.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 7:40 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Quoting:

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

End quote:

 

Wow, what an ironic statement that is;

After all, a screen reader is supposed to tell us everything;

I would never dream that I would have to assume that because a screen reader fails to feedback that something has happened.

If that is the case, then why would we even use screen readers at all;

Especially if they are not required to tell us everything.

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 7:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble with renaming files when in downloads and documents folders

 

Even though it doesn't say edit, your first message appears to indicate that the edit field has come up.  Try pressing f2, and just typing the new filename, then press enter.  If the file is renamed, then the field comes up and you just don't hear it announced.

Never assume that because a screen[-reader doesn't indicate something, that it hasn't happened. 

Then, after this test, we'll see if you can read what is in the field as it changes before you finish renaming a file.

Gene

On 8/30/2022 6:45 PM, Kenny Cheung wrote:

I just tried maximising it, and pressed F2, and it doesn't say edit.

On 8/30/2022 6:29 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:

Hi Kenny,


is the window in question maximised? Try maximising it and see if that resolves the issue.


Regards,

Nermin