auto detecting screen reader


Don H
 

Running latest released version of Win 10 and NVDA.
On such web sites as the lenovo home page it seems that they detect you are running a screen reader and bring up some settings that they think will help you with their web site. I find this annoying to say the least. Is there a way to hide the fact that you are running a screen reader?
Thanks


 

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:42 PM, Don H wrote:
I find this annoying to say the least.
-
Why?

It's a one-time accept or decline (unless you constantly delete site cookies).

For the love of heaven, when a site has additional accessibility options why would you NOT want to know about them?  These detections occur in other things, too, such as Adobe Reader DC, which will ask you whether you want to set up things with the Accessibility Wizard (also one time) and, believe me, in that context you absolutely do want to.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


Gene
 

There is an add-on I've read a little about that causes one of the site accessibility overlays not to work in your browser so the site appears as it would if there were none.  Others may know more about it.  That may or may not help with the overlay the site uses.

Gene

On 9/5/2022 11:42 AM, Don H wrote:
Running latest released version of Win 10 and NVDA.
On such web sites as the lenovo home page it seems that they detect you are running a screen reader and bring up some settings that they think will help you with their web site.  I find this annoying to say the least.  Is there a way to hide the fact that you are running a screen reader?
Thanks




.


Gene
 

We don't know what is being seen.  If it is one of the accessibility overlays, it likely makes the site harder to use and these overlays are so unwanted that there is at least one lawsuit against one of the companies who sell them to web sites, claiming that AI can solve accessibility problems for blind users and bring the site into compliance with the ADA just by the site having the overlay.

Gene

On 9/5/2022 11:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:42 PM, Don H wrote:
I find this annoying to say the least.
-
Why?

It's a one-time accept or decline (unless you constantly delete site cookies).

For the love of heaven, when a site has additional accessibility options why would you NOT want to know about them?  These detections occur in other things, too, such as Adobe Reader DC, which will ask you whether you want to set up things with the Accessibility Wizard (also one time) and, believe me, in that context you absolutely do want to.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt



Don H
 

If you go to thelenovo web site it comes up everytime you go back to the
home page. Rather than asking why please just answer my question as to
if you can hide the screen reader.

On 9/5/2022 11:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:42 PM, Don H wrote:

I find this annoying to say the least.

-
Why?

It's a one-time accept or decline (unless you constantly delete site
cookies).

For the love of heaven, when a site has additional accessibility options
why would you NOT want to know about them?  These detections occur in
other things, too, such as Adobe Reader DC, which will ask you whether
you want to set up things with the Accessibility Wizard (also one time)
and, believe me, in that context you absolutely do want to.
--

Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it .
. . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

~ Irving Babbitt


 

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:
We don't know what is being seen. 
-
Gene,

To me, that's not relevant.  If you don't know if you want it, then answer in the negative.

I'm faced with lots of questions where it's of the, "I have no idea what that is, so, no, thanks," is what the answer amounts to.  But sometimes I do, and the answer is "Yes."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


 

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 02:32 PM, Don H wrote:
Rather than asking why please just answer my question as to if you can hide the screen reader.
-
I don't have the answer.

You, and a lot of other members of this group need to get over the idea that every response is directed to you as the original poster.  Many original posters have given little thought to the results of what they're asking about.  That may not be you, specifically, but it could be any number of others who might be inclined to impulsively disable this automated checking for accessibility software in use.

That has downsides, and those deserve discussion.  It's not all about you, and your question, but about the other things that question brings up.  And that applies to the "generic you" for every post.

If someone has the answer to your question, I'd suppose they will actually supply the information.  Sometimes no one does.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


Gene
 

When I go to this page
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/
I get no such message.  Is that the page you are going to?

Gene

On 9/5/2022 1:32 PM, Don H wrote:
If you go to thelenovo web site it comes up everytime you go back to the
home page.  Rather than asking why please just answer my question as to
if you can hide the screen reader.

On 9/5/2022 11:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:42 PM, Don H wrote:

    I find this annoying to say the least.

-
Why?

It's a one-time accept or decline (unless you constantly delete site
cookies).

For the love of heaven, when a site has additional accessibility options
why would you NOT want to know about them?  These detections occur in
other things, too, such as Adobe Reader DC, which will ask you whether
you want to set up things with the Accessibility Wizard (also one time)
and, believe me, in that context you absolutely do want to.
--

Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it .
. . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

~ Irving Babbitt




Gene
 

If you are given a choice and if it is honored.  I don't know if all these overlays do that.  In addition, we need the link being used since when I look up the site and go there, I get no such message on what appears to be the home page.

Gene

On 9/5/2022 1:47 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:
We don't know what is being seen. 
-
Gene,

To me, that's not relevant.  If you don't know if you want it, then answer in the negative.

I'm faced with lots of questions where it's of the, "I have no idea what that is, so, no, thanks," is what the answer amounts to.  But sometimes I do, and the answer is "Yes."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt



 

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 02:53 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are given a choice and if it is honored.
-
The "choice" part was presented.  And I presume when a choice is presented, the response will be honored, if for nothing more than the session if a permanent cookie is not set for it.

If you're not being presented a choice that's a whole different kettle of fish, and if whatever's being done hoses accessibility that needs to be addressed.  But the last way I'd be inclined to address it is by doing something to hide the information that a screen reader is in use.  As I gave an example with setup of Acrobat Reader (and sometimes when certain documents are opened) if a screen reader is detected there are things that Reader does that greatly increase accessibility.  I wouldn't want someone masking the presence of their screen reader, ultimately forgetting they've done so (and that's what happens for all kinds of settings we tweak and forgot we tweaked), and then losing out on a lot of options they might not otherwise be aware of or even be able to activate.

The above is precisely what I mean "other things a question brings up."  They need to be discussed so that those who are reading, and there are many in addition to the original poster, can make an informed decision.

This group, and groups like them, are not simple question and answer groups and it is a huge mistake to believe that they are.  If I have to disabuse certain people of that notion, I have no hesitation about doing so.  They're information exchanges where Q&A is a part of those exchanges. 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


Rui Fontes
 

Hello!


I could reproduce the problem.

Go to lenovo.com and in the combobox to select the country select United States.


When the accessibility information have appeared, I pressed Control F9 to the options.

The last button is to turn off all accessibility settings, and I have pressed it.


The next time I go to the page, through the Chrome historic, only appears in the begin of the page the following:

Button, not available. Press ‎ Control + F9 ‎ at any time to move to the menu containing shortcuts to page main areas


I have also accepted the cookies...


Rui Fontes


Às 20:02 de 05/09/2022, Brian Vogel escreveu:

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 02:53 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are given a choice and if it is honored.
-
The "choice" part was presented.  And I presume when a choice is presented, the response will be honored, if for nothing more than the session if a permanent cookie is not set for it.

If you're not being presented a choice that's a whole different kettle of fish, and if whatever's being done hoses accessibility that needs to be addressed.  But the last way I'd be inclined to address it is by doing something to hide the information that a screen reader is in use.  As I gave an example with setup of Acrobat Reader (and sometimes when certain documents are opened) if a screen reader is detected there are things that Reader does that greatly increase accessibility.  I wouldn't want someone masking the presence of their screen reader, ultimately forgetting they've done so (and that's what happens for all kinds of settings we tweak and forgot we tweaked), and then losing out on a lot of options they might not otherwise be aware of or even be able to activate.

The above is precisely what I mean "other things a question brings up."  They need to be discussed so that those who are reading, and there are many in addition to the original poster, can make an informed decision.

This group, and groups like them, are not simple question and answer groups and it is a huge mistake to believe that they are.  If I have to disabuse certain people of that notion, I have no hesitation about doing so.  They're information exchanges where Q&A is a part of those exchanges. 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


Rui Fontes
 

Hello!


I could reproduce the problem.

Go to lenovo.com and in the combobox to select the country select United States.


When the accessibility information have appeared, I pressed Control F9 to the options.

The last button is to turn off all accessibility settings, and I have pressed it.


The next time I go to the page, through the Chrome historic, only appears in the begin of the page the following:

Button, not available. Press ‎ Control + F9 ‎ at any time to move to the menu containing shortcuts to page main areas


I have also accepted the cookies...


The only way to hide the presence of a screen reader is through the Windows registry...


Rui Fontes


Às 20:02 de 05/09/2022, Brian Vogel escreveu:

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 02:53 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are given a choice and if it is honored.
-
The "choice" part was presented.  And I presume when a choice is presented, the response will be honored, if for nothing more than the session if a permanent cookie is not set for it.

If you're not being presented a choice that's a whole different kettle of fish, and if whatever's being done hoses accessibility that needs to be addressed.  But the last way I'd be inclined to address it is by doing something to hide the information that a screen reader is in use.  As I gave an example with setup of Acrobat Reader (and sometimes when certain documents are opened) if a screen reader is detected there are things that Reader does that greatly increase accessibility.  I wouldn't want someone masking the presence of their screen reader, ultimately forgetting they've done so (and that's what happens for all kinds of settings we tweak and forgot we tweaked), and then losing out on a lot of options they might not otherwise be aware of or even be able to activate.

The above is precisely what I mean "other things a question brings up."  They need to be discussed so that those who are reading, and there are many in addition to the original poster, can make an informed decision.

This group, and groups like them, are not simple question and answer groups and it is a huge mistake to believe that they are.  If I have to disabuse certain people of that notion, I have no hesitation about doing so.  They're information exchanges where Q&A is a part of those exchanges. 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep. I often don’t’ want a site deciding if I should have these settings and or off. Some sites if you say no will keep bugging you and that is using that overlay which company is in a lawsuit right now.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, September 5, 2022 10:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] auto detecting screen reader

 

We don't know what is being seen.  If it is one of the accessibility overlays, it likely makes the site harder to use and these overlays are so unwanted that there is at least one lawsuit against one of the companies who sell them to web sites, claiming that AI can solve accessibility problems for blind users and bring the site into compliance with the ADA just by the site having the overlay.

Gene

On 9/5/2022 11:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:42 PM, Don H wrote:

I find this annoying to say the least.

-
Why?

It's a one-time accept or decline (unless you constantly delete site cookies).

For the love of heaven, when a site has additional accessibility options why would you NOT want to know about them?  These detections occur in other things, too, such as Adobe Reader DC, which will ask you whether you want to set up things with the Accessibility Wizard (also one time) and, believe me, in that context you absolutely do want to.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep, sounds to me like they are using that overlay. I recognize it, and once you say no, it will come back if you even so much as switch pages.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Monday, September 5, 2022 12:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] auto detecting screen reader

 

Hello!

 

I could reproduce the problem.

Go to lenovo.com and in the combobox to select the country select United States.

 

When the accessibility information have appeared, I pressed Control F9 to the options.

The last button is to turn off all accessibility settings, and I have pressed it.

 

The next time I go to the page, through the Chrome historic, only appears in the begin of the page the following:

Button, not available. Press ‎ Control + F9 ‎ at any time to move to the menu containing shortcuts to page main areas

 

I have also accepted the cookies...

 

The only way to hide the presence of a screen reader is through the Windows registry...

 

Rui Fontes

 

Às 20:02 de 05/09/2022, Brian Vogel escreveu:

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 02:53 PM, Gene wrote:

If you are given a choice and if it is honored.

-
The "choice" part was presented.  And I presume when a choice is presented, the response will be honored, if for nothing more than the session if a permanent cookie is not set for it.

If you're not being presented a choice that's a whole different kettle of fish, and if whatever's being done hoses accessibility that needs to be addressed.  But the last way I'd be inclined to address it is by doing something to hide the information that a screen reader is in use.  As I gave an example with setup of Acrobat Reader (and sometimes when certain documents are opened) if a screen reader is detected there are things that Reader does that greatly increase accessibility.  I wouldn't want someone masking the presence of their screen reader, ultimately forgetting they've done so (and that's what happens for all kinds of settings we tweak and forgot we tweaked), and then losing out on a lot of options they might not otherwise be aware of or even be able to activate.

The above is precisely what I mean "other things a question brings up."  They need to be discussed so that those who are reading, and there are many in addition to the original poster, can make an informed decision.

This group, and groups like them, are not simple question and answer groups and it is a huge mistake to believe that they are.  If I have to disabuse certain people of that notion, I have no hesitation about doing so.  They're information exchanges where Q&A is a part of those exchanges. 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


 

Hi,

And the answer is... yes and no, more towards no. Some programs (including some web browsers and web apps) can tell if you've got an assistive technology such as a screen reader running by querying specific information from the host system (the computer the app runs on). If the operating system (Windows, for example) informs the app that a screen reader is running, the app can either handle things differently by itself or expose this fact for others to use (technically, this is called "consuming"). You can in fact tell NVDA to not set screen reader flag when it starts, which "hides" its presence - there are other ways to detect if a screen reader is running, and one such way is via Windows Registry (won't go into details here); this means apps looking for a screen reader will find that no-one is responding to such a question when in fact the screen reader is moving around without identifying itself (some apps can probe specific places in the operating system, but it runs into performance problems; I can discuss details if you really want to know how a system call works inside an operating system). Therefore, the answer is really no.

Cheers,

Joseph


Don H
 

I thought my original posting was worded in such a way to have a yes or
no answer. Don't think Why is a reasonable answer.

On 9/5/2022 1:50 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 02:32 PM, Don H wrote:

Rather than asking why please just answer my question as to if you
can hide the screen reader.

-
I don't have the answer.

You, and a lot of other members of this group need to get over the idea
that every response is directed to you as the original poster.  Many
original posters have given little thought to the results of what
they're asking about.  That may not be you, specifically, but it could
be any number of others who might be inclined to impulsively disable
this automated checking for accessibility software in use.

That has downsides, and those deserve discussion.  It's not all about
you, and your question, but about the other things that question brings
up.  And that applies to the "generic you" for every post.

If someone has the answer to your question, I'd suppose they will
actually supply the information.  Sometimes no one does.
--

Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it .
. . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

~ Irving Babbitt


Don H
 

Thanks for finally giving me a answer. I can easily live with a answer of No but thought it was a reasonable question to ask since I found no such info in the Nvda help

On 9/5/2022 2:59 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
And the answer is... yes and no, more towards no. Some programs (including some web browsers and web apps) can tell if you've got an assistive technology such as a screen reader running by querying specific information from the host system (the computer the app runs on). If the operating system (Windows, for example) informs the app that a screen reader is running, the app can either handle things differently by itself or expose this fact for others to use (technically, this is called "consuming"). You can in fact tell NVDA to not set screen reader flag when it starts, which "hides" its presence - there are other ways to detect if a screen reader is running, and one such way is via Windows Registry (won't go into details here); this means apps looking for a screen reader will find that no-one is responding to such a question when in fact the screen reader is moving around without identifying itself (some apps can probe specific places in the operating system, but it runs into performance problems; I can discuss details if you really want to know how a system call works inside an operating system). Therefore, the answer is really no.
Cheers,
Joseph


 

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 05:01 PM, Don H wrote:
thought it was a reasonable question to ask
-
It was a perfectly reasonable question to ask.  And you got a perfectly reasonable range of responses to the other issues the question touches on, as well as finally an answer that, while you may not have wanted, decides things.

People asking questions in response to your question, or offering expansions, is perfectly reasonable, too.

You need to get over, now, the idea that no one can challenge you.  They can, and should, if they so choose and the challenge is civil.  Asking why you would want to do this, in light of all that has followed on, was way more than a perfectly reasonable response.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

It rather depends on whether those so-called accessibility options are well implemented. Often on websites they are not. They just chuck everything at ARIA as alerts, and everything gets read out.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 05 September 2022 17:54
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] auto detecting screen reader

 

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:42 PM, Don H wrote:

I find this annoying to say the least.

-
Why?

It's a one-time accept or decline (unless you constantly delete site cookies).

For the love of heaven, when a site has additional accessibility options why would you NOT want to know about them?  These detections occur in other things, too, such as Adobe Reader DC, which will ask you whether you want to set up things with the Accessibility Wizard (also one time) and, believe me, in that context you absolutely do want to.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


Steve Nutt
 

Yep, they are horrible. I avoid them like the plague if I can.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 05 September 2022 18:58
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] auto detecting screen reader

 

We don't know what is being seen.  If it is one of the accessibility overlays, it likely makes the site harder to use and these overlays are so unwanted that there is at least one lawsuit against one of the companies who sell them to web sites, claiming that AI can solve accessibility problems for blind users and bring the site into compliance with the ADA just by the site having the overlay.

Gene

On 9/5/2022 11:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:42 PM, Don H wrote:

I find this annoying to say the least.

-
Why?

It's a one-time accept or decline (unless you constantly delete site cookies).

For the love of heaven, when a site has additional accessibility options why would you NOT want to know about them?  These detections occur in other things, too, such as Adobe Reader DC, which will ask you whether you want to set up things with the Accessibility Wizard (also one time) and, believe me, in that context you absolutely do want to.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt