Office 365, print envolope, Delivery/Return address label not spoken


Dan Miner
 

I’m experiencing a bit of trouble with the print envelope feature in Word.  When focused on an address editor, NVDA says something like “Document 1, Page 1, Section 1, blank” rather than “Delivery Address”.  It happens for both address editors.  However, I tried Narrator, and it seems to speak the editor label for each one.  I noticed similar issues in the Label functionality as well.

 

Anyone else seeing this issue?

 

                Dan


Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Don,

I can replicate this as well.  I've written up an issue at: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/14156

Do feel encouraged to subscribe to that issue to follow developments.

Quentin.

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 12:52 PM Dan Miner <accessibleminer@...> wrote:

I’m experiencing a bit of trouble with the print envelope feature in Word.  When focused on an address editor, NVDA says something like “Document 1, Page 1, Section 1, blank” rather than “Delivery Address”.  It happens for both address editors.  However, I tried Narrator, and it seems to speak the editor label for each one.  I noticed similar issues in the Label functionality as well.

 

Anyone else seeing this issue?

 

                Dan



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


 

One of these two templates may prove helpful while this issue persists:

Commercial #10 Envelope MS-Word Fillable Form Template

 

Commercial #10 Envelope Template without Text Boxes
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


gbmagoo@...
 

Does your templet for envelopes know what size envelope and if it is a envelope.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 06:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Office 365, print envolope, Delivery/Return address label not spoken

 

One of these two templates may prove helpful while this issue persists:

Commercial #10 Envelope MS-Word Fillable Form Template

 

Commercial #10 Envelope Template without Text Boxes
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


 

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 09:43 AM, <gbmagoo@...> wrote:
Does your templet for envelopes know what size envelope and if it is a envelope.
-
Templates do not "size detect."  As noted, both are for a Commercial Size #10 and both are set up to print on an envelope, so that's what the printer needs to be fed.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


Dan Miner
 

I appreciate the links but sadly I never did figure out Word templates. Perhaps I may find better luck with known accessible ones and trying again.

                Dan

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 8:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Office 365, print envolope, Delivery/Return address label not spoken

 

One of these two templates may prove helpful while this issue persists:

Commercial #10 Envelope MS-Word Fillable Form Template

 

Commercial #10 Envelope Template without Text Boxes
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


 

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:16 AM, Dan Miner wrote:
I appreciate the links but sadly I never did figure out Word templates.
-
With this, I'll close the topic.  There's nothing "to figure out".  You activate a template (any template) and get a fresh instance of the document (in this case, an envelope) and the template remains untouched.  That's their whole reason for being, to allow you to churn out multiple copies of a given thing with whatever parts of it you want already set up without having to set up those things more than once.

Both of those templates are entirely accessible.  The one that's a fillable form even reads out the form fields (for the return address and main address) you've landed in when you tab.  The other has lines of text (3 for return address, three for main address) that you just select and then type in the actual text you want instead.  The place holder text is entirely self explanatory.  They were created for one of the blind-centric groups, but it's been a couple of years so I have no idea which one I did it form
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


Dan Miner
 

Thus far my experience is quite different, I did open and got the same “page 1, section 1”  utterance, using Document and object navigation did not reveal any labels or guidance how to use.  So, my comment since I get this kind of behavior of any template I have tried in the last few attempts to learn this feature over the last year or so.  I’ll leave it since I am not convinced it isn’t my error, but it does support my believe that templates in Word isn’t universally obvious.

 

                Dan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 10:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Office 365, print envolope, Delivery/Return address label not spoken

 

On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 11:16 AM, Dan Miner wrote:

I appreciate the links but sadly I never did figure out Word templates.

-
With this, I'll close the topic.  There's nothing "to figure out".  You activate a template (any template) and get a fresh instance of the document (in this case, an envelope) and the template remains untouched.  That's their whole reason for being, to allow you to churn out multiple copies of a given thing with whatever parts of it you want already set up without having to set up those things more than once.

Both of those templates are entirely accessible.  The one that's a fillable form even reads out the form fields (for the return address and main address) you've landed in when you tab.  The other has lines of text (3 for return address, three for main address) that you just select and then type in the actual text you want instead.  The place holder text is entirely self explanatory.  They were created for one of the blind-centric groups, but it's been a couple of years so I have no idea which one I did it form
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


 

Dan,

Then you need to either repair Office, reinstall NVDA, or both.

Here is precisely what's uttered by NVDA when I activate the commercial number 10 envelope fillable form template.  Note, you initially land in the Return Name field, which for some reason is not announced.  I've noticed in many templates the screen reader does not announce the very first form field unless you tab away from it and then SHIFT + TAB back.  This has been the case for a very long time, so I doubt it will ever change, and it's something to be aware of.

Directly from Speech Viewer:
Document1 - Word
Microsoft Word Document  edit  multi line  selected 
Main City, State/Province, and ZIP/Postal Code  edit    page 1  section 1 [Note: I tabbed here, then SHIFT + TABBED back to get the first field to announce]
Return Recipient Name  edit    
Return Street Address  edit   
Return City, State/Province, ZIP/Postal Code  edit
Main Recipient Name  edit  
Main Street Address  edit    
Main City, State/Province, and ZIP/Postal Code  edit   
Return Recipient Name  edit    [Note:  We've circled back up to the top/first field, which is the Return Addressee's name]
---------
It doesn't get more accessible than that.  It was designed that way.  Why would I post something inaccessible on a screen-reader user's group?
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


 

Hi all,

Found the cause (while working on a brand new add-on): NVDA simply ignores the label for the field, believing that the edit fields in envelopes dialog have the same labels as the document being worked on. I can confirm this with Microsoft 365 build 16.0.15601. We can ask Microsoft 365's Word team to fix the underlying cause (document name shown to screen readers), or fix it from NVDA side by either telling the screen reader to recognize Word documents better or not ignore UIA name (label) property when encountering what appears to be a Word document when it is not (from long-term to short-term, in that order).

This is one of those issues that require some experience with accessibility API's and NVDA internals to figure out what's going on. The relevant screen reader internal has to do with how NVDA can detect a specific thing it is working with from hundreds to thousands of on-screen controls it encounters (this is typically known as "choosing an overlay class" which is a key piece of code that comes with various add-ons; in short, NVDA will use a series of conditional statements backed by information coming from accessibility API's and/or other facilities to narrow down what it is looking for; part of becoming an experienced add-on author (or for that matter, NVDA code contributor) is figuring out places that require special attention from NVDA, and these "places" are represented as what's called "overlay class"; I can go into actual internals of how "choosing an overlay class" works upon request, or I might as well write a post about it once I'm done with school obligations for this week).

Cheers,

Joseph


squi d
 

I was always interested to know exactly how does the screen reader know what information to present. And how to prioritize this information. I would really enjoy and appreciate a response from you when you get some time because it seems that you are very familiar as to how this process works. I’m definitely encouraging you to write up one and it would be wonderful reading. Thank you for reading and have a nice day.
With warm regards
Squire

On 17 Sep 2022, at 7:33 AM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:



Hi all,

Found the cause (while working on a brand new add-on): NVDA simply ignores the label for the field, believing that the edit fields in envelopes dialog have the same labels as the document being worked on. I can confirm this with Microsoft 365 build 16.0.15601. We can ask Microsoft 365's Word team to fix the underlying cause (document name shown to screen readers), or fix it from NVDA side by either telling the screen reader to recognize Word documents better or not ignore UIA name (label) property when encountering what appears to be a Word document when it is not (from long-term to short-term, in that order).

This is one of those issues that require some experience with accessibility API's and NVDA internals to figure out what's going on. The relevant screen reader internal has to do with how NVDA can detect a specific thing it is working with from hundreds to thousands of on-screen controls it encounters (this is typically known as "choosing an overlay class" which is a key piece of code that comes with various add-ons; in short, NVDA will use a series of conditional statements backed by information coming from accessibility API's and/or other facilities to narrow down what it is looking for; part of becoming an experienced add-on author (or for that matter, NVDA code contributor) is figuring out places that require special attention from NVDA, and these "places" are represented as what's called "overlay class"; I can go into actual internals of how "choosing an overlay class" works upon request, or I might as well write a post about it once I'm done with school obligations for this week).

Cheers,

Joseph


 

Hi,

A screen reader relies on services provided by the underlying operating system to announce things on screen. The best example is when you press Tab to move between say, NVDA Settings controls. When this happens, Windows will move system focus to the new control, which in turn NVDA learns about it from accessibility API's. It then performs some work to figure out what the new control is and gathers info so it can be presented to you (the function responsible for announcing things such as name, role, state and others is quite complex to discuss it in one post as I need to spend several posts to discuss how speech output works in the first place). In the immediate context (this thread), screen readers can override what it sees as control label (name), and this is what's happening with Word envelopes dialog.

As for me being knowledgeable about all this: not really - as in I don't know all the ins and outs of NVDA despite working with NVDA source code for about a decade (I am the developer responsible for introducing suggestion sounds, Windows 11 Notepad support, to name a few; the most difficult part of being a screen reader developer is watching shouting matches between screen reader developers, app vendors, and Microsoft, more so when I am the one shouting at Microsoft engineers which breaks my heart; if you want to contribute code to NVDA or do any assistive technology development work, read about a concept called emotional labor before asking yourself if you can do it, something I might as well talk about soon).

Cheers,

Joseph


 

Joseph,

You know I appreciate these offerings, and will absolutely make an exception to group rules when they go "kinda meta" because I think it's important that those who want to know how things work under the hood get that information from a reliable source.

That being said, I am going to ask you to break these offerings into a topic, or topics, of their own.  Burying them inside other topics is not the way to go.  If you need to post a message in a topic "pointing to" what you've posted about NVDA internals due to something that's come up, please do so.  But make the NVDA Internals stuff a topic of its own, so it stands out and can be more easily found later.  If you'd like for me to add a hashtag like #NVDA_Internals I will gladly do so.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


 

Joseph,

One addition to my last post:  It would be great if in any NVDA internals post you make that was "triggered by" an ongoing topic, you reference that topic directly in the post, and in the trigger topic, reference the NVDA internals topic.

I doubt that there will be myriad occasions where this occurs, but it allows readers, particularly later readers of the archive, to have all the necessary background without having to go looking for it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt


 

Hi,

That's the plan - I plan to write several posts touching one subject at a time (I will of course bring up recent discussions to put things into context).

Cheers,

Joseph


 

Hi Dan and others,

This issue is resolved via Office Desk add-on (development version released a few minutes ago).

Cheers,

Joseph