On 9/26/2022 2:11 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:

Well, why not have your known good version as the installed one, and use the potables as the new ones until the add on you need gets converted? I do it this way, and also keep a hidden version of the current installed version in another folder, so that if it gets over written then its relatively easy to fix.
One thing I really would like though, would be a default folder for a portable version if one is not specified. At the moment its all too easy to splurge the files all over any drives root directory.
Brian

If one is concerned about having multiple viable versions of NVDA, I'd establish the practice of making a portable copy (which can be made on the machine itself in a dedicated folder) prior to updating every time a major update (essentially, the year changing on the NVDA release number) occurs.  Portable versions of NVDA do not need to be on a thumb drive or SD card.  They can be placed in a folder on the computer (and that folder can be copied to a thumb drive, SD card, or even an external USB HDD if you need actual portability - nothing else is necessary).

There is very little, I'd say almost no, reason to support multiple installed versions of NVDA.  Others, of course, will disagree.  I see far more requests on the JAWS lists for a "portable version" option such as the one NVDA has than any mention of keeping multiple versions of JAWS installed (and that is mentioned, occasionally).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt

I agree brian.

Unlike jaws we really don't want to go down that road.

The same with our addons.

Nvda can run without addons.

Maybe its not going to be the best but it will run.

Jaws can't run without scripts at least that was what was shoved down my throat about 24 years back.

At any rate if addon x is not compatible with nvda it means its not updated or its integrated or something.

Of course there are those that think everything should work without updates and don't see why there should be breaking updates because of all the languages and other requirements at all.

Yeah sometimes I feel the pain of those users, but being had my background with a little linux and with a few other things moving plugins about though a bit annoying especially of how some of them never make it to updaters, etc its just life.

Sometimes you need to work for things.

On 26/09/2022 1:46 pm, Brian Vogel wrote:

If one is concerned about having multiple viable versions of NVDA, I'd establish the practice of making a portable copy (which can be made on the machine itself in a dedicated folder) prior to updating every time a major update (essentially, the year changing on the NVDA release number) occurs.  Portable versions of NVDA do not need to be on a thumb drive or SD card.  They can be placed in a folder on the computer (and that folder can be copied to a thumb drive, SD card, or even an external USB HDD if you need actual portability - nothing else is necessary).

There is very little, I'd say almost no, reason to support multiple installed versions of NVDA.  Others, of course, will disagree.  I see far more requests on the JAWS lists for a "portable version" option such as the one NVDA has than any mention of keeping multiple versions of JAWS installed (and that is mentioned, occasionally).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via groups.io
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2022 12:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Idea: Multiple versions of NVDA

Yes Dolphin Supernova has had a portable version for years, indeed you used to be able to buy what they called the pen version to use on others machines with the limitations of security of course.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2022 1:46 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Idea: Multiple versions of NVDA


If one is concerned about having multiple viable versions of NVDA, I'd establish the practice of making a portable copy (which can be made on the machine itself in a dedicated folder) prior to updating every time a major update (essentially, the year changing on the NVDA release number) occurs.
Portable versions of NVDA do not need to be on a thumb drive or SD card.
They can be placed in a folder on the computer (and that folder can be copied to a thumb drive, SD card, or even an external USB HDD if you need actual portability - nothing else is necessary).

There is very little, I'd say almost no, reason to support multiple installed versions of NVDA. Others, of course, will disagree. I see far more requests on the JAWS lists for a "portable version" option such as the one NVDA has than any mention of keeping multiple versions of JAWS installed (and that is mentioned, occasionally).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . .
for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

~ Irving Babbitt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2022 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Idea: Multiple versions of NVDA


Hi,

This is an interesting idea. However, I'm afraid this cannot be done due to technical and distribution reasons:

* Technical: in some parts of NVDA (notably when installing it), NVDA will insist on using a dedicated folder inside program files (or program files (x86)) folder for installation files. This is also needed when upgrading as the update routine for the installed version will look for an installed copy of NVDA to determine if the installed version is older than the update (checks the timestamp for the NVDA executable file). While using multiple installation folders would work for stable releases, it doesn't work on alpha builds as they do not have easily discernable year.major.minor text on the surface (you must look at file metadata to obtain this information).
* Distribution: somewhat tied to technical reason, you can in fact install NVDA from Microsoft Store (a limited version exists) as well as through Windows Package Manager (winget). In order for these distribution channels to work, they need to know where NVDA is stored, and they prefer a single copy of a software product such as NVDA to be installed (as recorded in Windows Registry and elsewhere). If we have multiple installed versions of NVDA, Winget will get confused (about version and installation directory) when you tell it to upgrade NVDA.

I think there is another reason that's sometimes overlooked: the way NV Access and Vispero communicates about version information are not really compatible with each other's understanding of what a major version is. Vispero uses major.0 or year (depending on who you ask) to denote major JAWS releases, whereas NV Access denotes year.major as simply that: major releases throughout a given year. Therefore 2022.1 and 2022.2 are not revisions of NVDA 2022, but denotes first and second major releases of the calendar year 2022; 2022.2.3, on the other hand, is truly a revision of 2022.2. So the upcoming 2022.3 release is not another revision of NVDA 2022, but rather the third major release of the year 2022. This is why even between these year.major releases, things can change, sometimes affecting add-on development plans (this is why I announced here a few weeks ago that my add-ons require NVDA 2022.2, as the second major release of the year 2022 had changes that affected at least Windows App Essentials due to the fact that some major features from the add-on were included in that NVDA release).

As for NV Access making compatibility breaking releases every year: I have asked NV Access to provide justifications so they won't have to break add-ons every year. Part of the mess that was 2022.1 was caused by last-minute reversion of a massive breaking change that affected many add-ons, some of them no longer maintained (and even some we lost contact with maintainers for some time). Even with that reversion, it did affect speech synthesizers due to a change to speech processing internals that synthesizers may have been relying on. The good news is that NV Access is more proactive on add-ons, even creating a dedicated announcement mailing list to communicate breaking changes (Quentin would know more about this than I do).

I think there are two important issues that should be addressed at some point:

1. Clarifying year.major: as NV Access noted many times and I have explained above, in NVDA world, NVDA 2022.2 is not NVDA version 2022 update 2; it is year 2022, NVDA major release 2. I think part of the confusion stems from the fact that we see add-ons community become more active around year.1 beta release to start addressing compatibility breaking changes, being translated to users as though NVDA 2022 is on its way when in fact IT IS NOT REALLY THAT (see above as to why); it happens to be a major release for which NV Access has targeted for moving to new ways of doing things.
2. Communication: this is perhaps the biggest issue to address: discussions between NV Access, contributors, and add-on authors. At least NV Access is learning from 2022.1 experience and has created a way to talk to add-on authors about upcoming breaking changes via an announcement list. The question now is how will add-on authors respond when 2023.1 development takes off (foundation is being laid at the moment inside NVDA source code, and if I'm reading recent GitHub discussions correctly, 2023.1 will be a massive (and I think, necessary) compatibility breaking release (won't talk about it here as things can change without notice)).

So, in summary, while this is an attractive idea, I think practicality beats purity (directly quoting Zen of Python): ideas are good, but we also need to think about practices and limitations.

Hope this answers many questions.

Cheers,

Joseph

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2022 1:46 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Idea: Multiple versions of NVDA


If one is concerned about having multiple viable versions of NVDA, I'd establish the practice of making a portable copy (which can be made on the machine itself in a dedicated folder) prior to updating every time a major update (essentially, the year changing on the NVDA release number) occurs. Portable versions of NVDA do not need to be on a thumb drive or SD card. They can be placed in a folder on the computer (and that folder can be copied to a thumb drive, SD card, or even an external USB HDD if you need actual portability - nothing else is necessary).

There is very little, I'd say almost no, reason to support multiple installed versions of NVDA. Others, of course, will disagree. I see far more requests on the JAWS lists for a "portable version" option such as the one NVDA has than any mention of keeping multiple versions of JAWS installed (and that is mentioned, occasionally).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

~ Irving Babbitt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel McGee" <danielmcgee134@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2022 1:04 AM
Subject: [nvda] Idea: Multiple versions of NVDA

Dear list


I realize that this isn't for everyone. Also not sure how complex it is for the folks developing NVDA. However, please hear me out and for my reasoning for this suggestion.


So, one thing I liked, when I used Jaws, was the fact that when a new version came along, it didn't replace the previous version. Allowing you to have multiple versions installed.


My reasoning, feel free to disagree here. Is that I got to thinking about NVDA add-ons.


Since we have, compatibility breaking releases of NVDA add-ons once a year, my thinking was this.


Say, NVDA 2022.1 wasn't the add on breaking release.


Then, Version 2023.1was the breaking release.


However, if one still wanted to install, 2023.1, they could do so. While retaining the previous installed version on there system. While Add on developers catch up.


Currently as it stands, if you have a load of add-ons that you need/depend on your system. You have to either: wait till add-on developers update, or review incompatible add-ons and make the judgement call.


Developers have lives, and sometimes I'm guessing that life happens and for whatever reason, they don't make it to a addon deadline for submission for the breaking release.


For the general public, they might just want to update and use latest release. However, not know or understand how add on releases work. Therefore feeling held back while add-ons devs update.


All this to say, that if a new NVDA version came out, it could still be installed along side the current non-add-on breaking release.


Yes, I know, that we have a portable version for that but still thinking of the users who may not be aware of portable existence.


I would be interested to know what everyone thinks. Am I crazy? Is it a good idea? Oh and I hope it makes sense.


If not, hoping someone like Joseph could put it far more eloquently effectively in writing than I can. lol


Kind regards


Daniel

If one is concerned about having multiple viable versions of NVDA, I'd establish the practice of making a portable copy (which can be made on the machine itself in a dedicated folder) prior to updating every time a major update (essentially, the year changing on the NVDA release number) occurs.  Portable versions of NVDA do not need to be on a thumb drive or SD card.  They can be placed in a folder on the computer (and that folder can be copied to a thumb drive, SD card, or even an external USB HDD if you need actual portability - nothing else is necessary).

There is very little, I'd say almost no, reason to support multiple installed versions of NVDA.  Others, of course, will disagree.  I see far more requests on the JAWS lists for a "portable version" option such as the one NVDA has than any mention of keeping multiple versions of JAWS installed (and that is mentioned, occasionally).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt