Beginning basic programming with Python and nvda
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multi 85
So, I want to learn programming as a hobby, and to make nvda add-ons
and games, and I have a book on how to learn Python, because my sighted friend recommended that that's the best language for me to learn. I know many people who I have asked on blind forums say that they type their code into a text editor like Notepad Plus, but, I wanted to know, this solution is obviously for people who know what they are typing or who know programming, because, as far as I understand it, text editors and learning that way do not detect errors in code. The sad thing is, the book recommends I use a program called PyCharm, but this does not appear to be accessible with NVDA. Are there some other beginner-friendly softwares that are total development environments where one can write and then compile the code etc? If anyone else was trying to learn programming for the first time, especially of course python, what resources and software did you try? I would of course also be interested in tutorials or other blind-centric resources, as I am then not sure how far this book will take me because of course some of it's tasks might also then be quite sight-orientated. Thanks Multi
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Brian's Mail list account
Back in the 1980s, it was relatively easy, since computers had basic interpreters for, um Basic, Indeed the old Spectrum computer could even be given a voice and it could spot syntax errors in the lines either as entered or when run.
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Nowadays this sort of thing never seems to happen any more, and language packages are just that, and because Python and others tends to be run as compiled code straight away, they tend to be less well specified in their editors, and as you found these editors seem not to be very accessible anyway. It is strange to me that we seem to have moved backwards as we have moved forwards, but if anyone does know of an intelligent, ie syntax spotting editor that works for us, then let us know. We have the long winter nights ahead in the northern hemisphere! Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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From: "multi 85" <multi851@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2022 2:47 PM Subject: [nvda] Beginning basic programming with Pytho and nvda So, I want to learn programming as a hobby, and to make nvda add-ons
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Jacob Kruger
I work in python on a daily basis, and, I generally use either notepad++ or VS code.
And, no, I don't ask either of them to check my syntax before a run via the python console, or interpreter, and, it's output is almost always helpful enough to tell me what's gone wrong.
In other words, I generally work via command line in that context, and, use the breakpoint() function call in my code if I want execution to pause at a specific point to then let me use the interactive interface to double-check variable values/states, etc.
For a more on-topic mailing list for this type of discussion, I would recommend something like the program-l blind programmer's mailing list, or pythonvis, which is meant to, specifically target blind/VI individuals who'd like to get started programming in python.: https://www.freelists.org/list/pythonvis
Blind programmer's mailing list: https://www.freelists.org/list/program-l
VS code and notepad++ can both offer intellisense prompting of
sorts, but, honestly, while it's convenient at times, I also don't
rely on that one to tell me what keywords, etc. to type in much. Jacob Kruger +2782 413 4791 Skype: BlindZA "...resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..." On 2022/09/26 15:47, multi 85 wrote:
So, I want to learn programming as a hobby, and to make nvda add-ons and games, and I have a book on how to learn Python, because my sighted friend recommended that that's the best language for me to learn. I know many people who I have asked on blind forums say that they type their code into a text editor like Notepad Plus, but, I wanted to know, this solution is obviously for people who know what they are typing or who know programming, because, as far as I understand it, text editors and learning that way do not detect errors in code. The sad thing is, the book recommends I use a program called PyCharm, but this does not appear to be accessible with NVDA. Are there some other beginner-friendly softwares that are total development environments where one can write and then compile the code etc? If anyone else was trying to learn programming for the first time, especially of course python, what resources and software did you try? I would of course also be interested in tutorials or other blind-centric resources, as I am then not sure how far this book will take me because of course some of it's tasks might also then be quite sight-orientated. Thanks Multi
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Russell James
The good news for you is python has an interpreter :-) This video might be helpful Hopefully you will get other recommendations Many people I know are using vs code for python development Rus On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, 10:10 AM Brian's Mail list account via groups.io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Back in the 1980s, it was relatively easy, since computers had basic
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Jacob Kruger
The command line interpreter is your best friend, along with
built-in functions like dir(object_name) and help(). Jacob Kruger Skype: BlindZA "...resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..." On 2022/09/26 16:26, Russell James
wrote:
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jamie coady
Would love to learn but don’t know where to go for basic tutorials and stuff.
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Jacob Kruger
Sent: 26 September 2022 15:30 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Beginning basic programming with Python and nvda
The command line interpreter is your best friend, along with built-in functions like dir(object_name) and help().
On 2022/09/26 16:26, Russell James wrote:
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mr Krit Kumar kedia
Multi, actually you are right, python is the easiest programming language that I have ever learned, in this language, the codes are written and simply burnt! Notepad ++ seems not good for programming, so let me tell you some other plans! you should use defalt notepad and simply write the codes. You can run them by using the CMd, else: you can go with VS code which are all in one. You can simply write the coads there, and run them from the same place. hope it helps a bit, Me, python and nothing should have a sit! Krit Kedia
On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 7:17 PM multi 85 <multi851@...> wrote: So, I want to learn programming as a hobby, and to make nvda add-ons
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Jacob Kruger
Notepad++, along with something like the python indent plugin does at least help out a bit when it comes to handling python indentation levels for code blocks, whereas normal notepad would do nothing of the sort.
Same way, I have set NVDA itself to mention indentation changes
to me using audio beeps, etc. Jacob Kruger Skype: BlindZA "...resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..." On 2022/09/26 18:43, mr Krit Kumar
kedia wrote:
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hurrikennyandopo ...
Hi
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A while ago a list was put together of resources for people wanting to go down that route. It is more resources I do not think it tells you what program some of them use but it could be added to the list. I am not a programmer so any in put of what programs to use with nvda would help. The list is below. If wanted and useful it can be added to the website under useful resources page. The list is below. Learning Python books and courses Learn python the hard way https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ A python hands on tutorial http://anh.cs.luc.edu/python/hands-on/3.1/handsonHtml/index.html Python for Everybody: Exploring Data Using Python 3 https://open.umn.edu/opentextbooks/textbooks/336 And some online courses, These are free, but if you want a certificate of completion, you can pay for it if you pass the course. Introduction to Python for Data Science https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-for-data-science Python for data science https://www.edx.org/course/python-for-data-science-1 Introduction to Python: Absolute Beginner https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-absolute-beginner-2 Introduction to Python: Fundamentals https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-fundamentals-2 Principles of Machine Learning: Python Edition https://www.edx.org/course/principles-of-machine-learning-python-edition Computing in Python I: Fundamentals and Procedural Programming https://www.edx.org/course/computing-in-python-i-fundamentals-and-procedural-programming-2 Computing in Python II: Control Structures https://www.edx.org/course/computing-in-python-ii-control-structures-2 Computing in Python III: Data Structures https://www.edx.org/course/computing-in-python-iii-data-structures-2 Computing in Python IV: Objects & Algorithms https://www.edx.org/course/computing-in-python-iv-objects-algorithms-2 Visualizing Data with Python https://www.edx.org/course/data-visualization-with-python Advanced Algorithmics and Graph Theory with Python https://www.edx.org/course/advanced-algorithmics-and-graph-theory-with-python Analyzing Data with Python https://www.edx.org/course/data-analysis-with-python Deep Learning with Python and PyTorch https://www.edx.org/course/deep-learning-with-python-and-pytorch Python Basics for Data Science https://www.edx.org/course/python-basics-for-data-science Machine Learning with Python: A Practical Introduction https://www.edx.org/course/machine-learning-with-python-for-edx Using Python for Research https://www.edx.org/course/using-python-for-research Introduction to Python: Creating Scalable, Robust, Interactive Code https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-creating-scalable-robust-interactive-code Programming with Python for Data Science https://www.edx.org/course/programming-with-python-for-data-science Introduction to Programming Using Python https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-programming-using-python CS For All: Introduction to Computer Science and Python Programming https://www.edx.org/course/cs-all-introduction-computer-science-harveymuddx-cs005x-0 These are all pay courses, but if you are careful, you can buy bundles that have multiple courses in them. Stone river elearning has 32 python courses at: https://stoneriverelearning.com/courses/category/Python skillwise has several python courses, some of which are listed below. Python Programming Bootcamp 2.0 https://www.skillwise.com/sales/python-programming-bootcamp-2-2 Python 3 Bootcamp Bundle https://www.skillwise.com/sales/python-bootcamp-2017-python-3 Machine Learning with Python Course and E-Book Bundle https://www.skillwise.com/sales/the-python-machine-learning-online-course-and-book-bundle Deep Learning: Convolutional Neural Networks in Python https://www.skillwise.com/sales/deep-learning-convolutional-neural-networks-in-python The Python Power Coder BONUS Bundle https://www.skillwise.com/sales/the-python-power-coder-bonus-bundle Become a Professional Python Programmer https://www.skillwise.com/sales/become-a-professional-python-programmer Python Tutorial: Python 100% Hands-On - Learn by Coding https://www.skillwise.com/sales/python-tutorial-python-100-hands-on-learn-by-coding Pay What You Want: The Python Master Class Bundle https://www.skillwise.com/sales/pwyw-the-python-master-class-bundle And, finally, educba.com also has python courses such as: Become a Python Developer Artificial Intelligence with python python 3.5 Training The Ultimate python Programming - Novice to Ninja Practical Projects of python Programming python:01 - python Fundamentals Data Science with python python for Beginners Machine Learning using python Now, I know the educba classes are expensive if bought separately, but if you hang out on stacksocial.com or even skillwise.com ( at times) you can purchase whole groups of training all at once. I got a deal for all of stone river Elearning for $59, then for $99 I got the whole collection of educba classes. (the next day, I saw it for $49) *grumble*), so if you're patient, and if you really want to learn, there's no reason why you can't learn anything you like. This is just talking about python classes and books, but this works for just about any topic. stackskills.com also has several python courses, and I got access to 1100 plus courses (all it/technology related for $19 again, from stacksocial.com https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ Here's A Byte of Python. https://python.swaroopch.com/ Here's Think Python. http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/html/index.html Here's one on programming games. http://inventwithpython.com/ Finally, here's a link somebody posted a while back to stuff Joseph wrote up.
On 27/09/2022 2:47 am, multi 85 wrote:
So, I want to learn programming as a hobby, and to make nvda add-ons
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Bob Cavanaugh
I'm taking an HTML class right now, and we use Visual Studio Code. So
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far, it's working pretty well, though I've only done a couple things in it so far. I'm not sure how it will work with Python, though I could ask my instructor what he uses for that class.
On 9/26/22, multi 85 <multi851@...> wrote:
So, I want to learn programming as a hobby, and to make nvda add-ons
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On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:50 PM, mr Krit Kumar kedia wrote:
you should use defalt notepad and simply write the codes.- I'm with Jacob Kruger on this one. I would never give up the formatting and syntax assistance that something like a "programming dedicated" editor like notepad++ gives for plain notepad. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection. ~ Irving Babbitt
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multi 85
Forgive my ignorance, but some of these courses listed above, if one
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is a totally blind person, surely they are not really possible to do? I am specifically meaning those ones on the list which have titles like graphs, and and would data science not need all sorts of visualizations and charts and so on, unless if one has a braille printer or some other sort of specialized equipment? But there are many other courses that do sound OK, and I shall join the other lists. At least I have a huge range of options to start trying to learn the basics, and I will try both editors and look how it goes. Thanks all
On 9/26/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:50 PM, mr Krit Kumar kedia wrote:-
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Hi, Having taken courses that are heavily visual (and I know some of us did the same), I can say that it is possible for a blind person to take visual courses although accommodations are still required. More importantly, you need to know the instructor well as what can make a difference is how instructors talk about concepts and steps such as graphs, visualizations, statistics, and so on. I do encourage students to give computer programming a try and learn more than just programming - after all, what programming will teach you is how to organize your thoughts more clearly. As somewhat of a tangent or rather related to this forum: do not learn Python simply to write NVDA add-ons or think contributing to NVDA with your Python knowledge is all there is to it. I want some of us to get away from that mindset, otherwise our NVDA code contribution journey will be difficult. Learning Python opens up many possibilities, as well as teach you quite a few life lessons such as critical thinking. Good luck. Cheers, Joseph
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Well I also did visual courses. I began with pascal in devpascal and javascript. However back then the idea was to go to c, or visual basic. I started to try to learn afterwards but it simply got to complex and I dropped it. Not sure if I have the motivation to try to write my own stuff whhich isn't simple batch.
On 28/09/2022 8:12 am, Joseph Lee
wrote:
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Don H
Having a computer science degree and background in programming the only thing I found with python is how important spacing is. I did enjoy playing with it and createed a black Jack game and some learning tools for my grand kids.
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On 9/27/2022 3:35 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Well I also did visual courses.
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multi 85
Hi Joseph
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No, I wasn't arguing that a blind person cannot take a visual course. What I was arguing is, some of these correspondents courses listed there do seem very visual, and to be honest, if it does have graphs, statistics and so on, then I am not too sure how a blind person can take such courses in that sort of way, especially, for subjects like that, you then need textbooks in all sorts of formats and help, and I'm sure these web courses do not provide that? Take maths for example, unfortunately I can't think of any online maths courses that sighted students are taking that are accessible. As far as I'm aware, I once tried a maths course as a MOOC, and, obviously, sadly it was a non-starter from the word go. Surely, also many of these data visualisation courses, I am trying to wrap my head around the idea of how a person could do them as Mooc at all. You would obviously have to have taken many other courses at an actual college and thn sort of work the moocs into them, but starting and trying just from the beginning with mooc, is that really doable? It would be great if it somehow actually is. I know too little on that subject to comment. It would actually be a very interesting point to know if blind people have had any success engaging with a mooc instructor of some hard subjects like that and have got much accommodation, which platform and instructor did this, if any.
On 9/27/22, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
Hi,
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On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 05:01 PM, Don H wrote:
Having a computer science degree and background in programming the only thing I found with python is how important spacing is.- Hence the reason for my earlier comment that using an editor that is "language sensitive" and helps with all aspects of syntax is just something I wouldn't even consider doing without, since it exists. Using a plain text editor is just a non-starter for me, and that's what I used to have to use. Why make life any more difficult than it need be? -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food. ~ Austin O'Malley
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What editor do you recommend?
73 N2DYN Angelo
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 10:34 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Beginning basic programming with Python and nvda
On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 05:01 PM, Don H wrote:
- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food. ~ Austin O'Malley
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On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 10:35 AM, Angelo Sonnesso wrote:
What editor do you recommend?- In the Windows world, notepad++ (and versions of that may exist for Linux or Mac, but I'm not digging for that info at the moment). One of its menus is the Language menu and the number of languages for which it has syntax support are far too numerous to list here. Python happens to be the last entry in the submenu under P in the Language menu. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food. ~ Austin O'Malley
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Thanks I am just getting started with Python.
73 N2DYN Angelo
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 10:44 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Beginning basic programming with Python and nvda
On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 10:35 AM, Angelo Sonnesso wrote:
- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food. ~ Austin O'Malley
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