Date
1 - 20 of 20
Finicky Form Fields
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Bhavya shah
Dear all,
I am using NVDA 2022.3.2 on a Windows 10 machine with latest stable versions of Firefox and Edge. I often encounter list boxes, combo boxes and potentially other similar form fields on the web where NVDA does not report the selection when arrowing or Tabbing through them. While I don't have test cases to point to right now (the one form that exhibited this issue just now is internal), such form fields typically require me to Alt+down arrow into them. But once that is done, selecting an option by arrowing to it and pressing Space can be very finicky, often not doing anything and simply collapsing the form field again. But even in the instances where the correct option was selected, NVDA does not report the selection leaving me unsure and trying to get back into the form field to double-check. Notably, JAWS tends to work smoother with web forms, and reads out my selection even as I arrow past the list box in this case. Have you experienced any of the above bugs or similar? Are these issue known and/or documented? Are there any work-arounds or strategies to make NVDA work better with some of these web form elements? I would truly appreciate any inputs. Kind Regards, Bhavya Shah B.S. in Mathematical and Computational Science | Stanford '24 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/ |
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Bhavya,
Consider using Enter to make your selection rather than the Spacebar and see if that gets you a different result. I tend to use Enter far more frequently than spacebar for this type of selection and since I don't recall NVDA being silent about the selection made that way, it's worth a try. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are many people who can only make themselves feel better about themselves by making themselves feel better than others. ~ Commenter Looking_in on the Washington Post, 7/10/2014 |
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David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
Hi NVDA,
I too have experienced this issue and am reluctant to try enter as suggested without knowing what the field is asking. Recent case in point, membership subscription to www.thewriter.com This is an online website dealing with fiction and nonfiction writing. I did send a notice to the Customer Service but have yet to see an answer two months hence. I too use NVDA to perform functions on the computer. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
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On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 04:15 PM, David Russell wrote:
I too have experienced this issue- You're comment made me go back and re-read the original, and I had somehow glossed over that the issue was NVDA not reading when traversing the individual selections. I somehow thought it wasn't announcing what you had actually selected, but was telling you what you were on during the selection process. The latter is trivial, as I'd be willing to presume that whatever I was focused on when a selection was confirmed is what is now in the field, but if you can't hear that in the first place that's definitely non-trivial. Have folks who are experiencing this tried The Most Basic Troubleshooting Steps for Suspected NVDA Issues? This absolutely could be an issue triggered by an add-on rather than NVDA core itself. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are many people who can only make themselves feel better about themselves by making themselves feel better than others. ~ Commenter Looking_in on the Washington Post, 7/10/2014 |
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arqam mehmood
Hi there.
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I think Bhavya Shah is right. I also face this issue with NVDA some times. also, I'm a C# developer. and when I work with combo boxes in WinForms. the problem is same there as well. and jaws works completely fine there. I've tried all the properties related to accessibility, but nothing works. Arqam Mehmood. On 11/10/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
Bhavya, |
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Brian's Mail list account
Yes, half the problem seems to be the fact that you have no idea what strategy will work best as these sort of controls look or sound the same, but often are different in the way you need to interact with them. Maybe Jaws interrogates the page source more to deduce the best approach in the background.
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Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "arqam mehmood" <arqamgrt1@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2022 4:14 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Finicky Form Fields Hi there. I think Bhavya Shah is right. I also face this issue with NVDA some times. also, I'm a C# developer. and when I work with combo boxes in WinForms. the problem is same there as well. and jaws works completely fine there. I've tried all the properties related to accessibility, but nothing works. Arqam Mehmood. On 11/10/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote: Bhavya, |
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Steve Nutt
Exactly. Enter may activate the submit button on many forms, so it's not a reliable work around.
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All the best Steve -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: 10 November 2022 21:16 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] RE Finicky Form Fields Hi NVDA, I too have experienced this issue and am reluctant to try enter as suggested without knowing what the field is asking. Recent case in point, membership subscription to www.thewriter.com This is an online website dealing with fiction and nonfiction writing. I did send a notice to the Customer Service but have yet to see an answer two months hence. I too use NVDA to perform functions on the computer. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
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I've been shot in the foot re the enter key. Let's just say I want to curse when that happens. Not fun. Which is why I don't hit enter now out of habit.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2022 8:39 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Finicky Form Fields Exactly. Enter may activate the submit button on many forms, so it's not a reliable work around. All the best Steve -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: 10 November 2022 21:16 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] RE Finicky Form Fields Hi NVDA, I too have experienced this issue and am reluctant to try enter as suggested without knowing what the field is asking. Recent case in point, membership subscription to www.thewriter.com This is an online website dealing with fiction and nonfiction writing. I did send a notice to the Customer Service but have yet to see an answer two months hence. I too use NVDA to perform functions on the computer. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
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On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:38 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Enter may activate the submit button on many forms,- Only if those buttons have focus. If you are in a dropdown box, edit box, sitting on a link, etc., I have never, ever seen Enter activate a submit button. If you happen to be in a single edit box, like a search edit box, it will often kick off the search. You've always got to be ready to try everything in "the bag of tricks" when what should work isn't. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit "Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people. ~ Tom Masson |
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Gene
When you say you don't know what a field is asking for and not wanting to use enter, if you are in browse mode when working with an unfamiliar form and you down arrow through it, you are more likely to know what a field is asking for. There are times when just tabbing through a form doesn't cause the descriptive text to be read. You may just hear edit.
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I strongly recommend that when people are working with an unfamiliar form, unless it is very simple and it is likely that you won't miss information, such as a search form consisting of an edit field and a search button, that people down arrow through the form. If you tab, as far too many people do, you don't know what information you may be missing. You may be missing explanatory text, descriptive text for what a control such as a radio button does or a field like an edit field is asking for and you may miss examples of how the site wants something submitted. For example, when a site asks for a date, if you don't see the example that is often given, you won't know the format the site wants. I don't know where you get good instructional material about navigating web pages, including forms effectively, others may have suggestions. But from things you ask and say, it sounds as though you would significantly benefit from such material, if it is good quality. I hope you don't mind me discussing this frankly, but I'm not helping you properly if I don't and if you haven't learned web page navigation well. Gene On 12/1/2022 10:38 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Exactly. Enter may activate the submit button on many forms, so it's not a reliable work around. |
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Gene
To clarify, I should have addressed the above message to David and all
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Gene On 12/1/2022 10:38 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Exactly. Enter may activate the submit button on many forms, so it's not a reliable work around. |
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Gene
In an edit field, it certainly may, if you are already in forms
mode. It is routine to conduct searches by typing text and pressing
enter without moving to the submit button. If you aren't in focus
mode but in browse mode, that's an entirely different matter.
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Gene On 12/1/2022 10:54 AM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:38 AM, Steve Nutt wrote: |
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David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
Hello NVDA,
Voila, this is a lucky afternoon to see this topic here, thanks! This morning, I filled out a registration form where I had to read the information in each of the fields by arrowing down through the form itself. It took a bit longer but at least a trick worked! Is there a reason that fields are not announced by a screen reader if one uses the forward tab, but only 'edit' is heard with each field? Prior to Gene's post, I did not know down arrow provides more info, than tabbing through form fields. In defense of tabbing, this was taught to a group of us on how to use Windows Seven with a platform called DocuScribe when working for a transcription company in the early 2000s. Again, thanks! -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... Forgiveness is the final form of love. Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Bob Cavanaugh
If a page is coded right, tabbing through should give enough
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information so that a screen reader user knows what to input into a form. Those that don't give that information aren't coded correctly, either out of ignorance or simply laziness. On 12/1/22, David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...> wrote:
Hello NVDA, |
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Gene
I don't know if what you were taught referred in any way to the internet. You can't assume what is true of one interface is true in general. For example, you can't assume that what you learn about moving through a dialog applies to a web page.
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As far as why, I believe that accessibility standards say that tabbing should read the descriptive information in the field such as e-mail address and then the kind of field it is, as in e-mail address, edit. but that isn't always the way the fields are set up. And even with that standard, there are forms that have information between fields that is actual text to be read giving information about what is expected to be entered in the form. That text isn't part of a field. It is text in the form to be read as though you were reading a document. Gene On 12/1/2022 1:52 PM, David Russell wrote:
Hello NVDA, |
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On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 02:57 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Those that don't give that information [what a field/control is when you gain focus on it] aren't coded correctly, either out of ignorance or simply laziness.- Amen to that!! And I'd attribute it to ignorance rather than malice of any kind, particularly if a website happens to be a personal website or belongs to a very small business. These are often put together by folks who are doing their best just to come up with something and have zero experience with web design. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit "Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people. ~ Tom Masson |
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Gene
Not necessarily. What if I am filling out a form and I see some
check boxes by tabbing. Above the check boxes may be text that says
something like, check all that apply. Or what if I see text that
says check the choices that best describe your reaction to this
sentence. Tabbing shouldn't be expected to read that information.
It is not in a field and it may be just text. Or what if you see
something that says, answer this question if, and then states a
condition such as, if you use this or that product or if you were
born outside of The United States.
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Yes, some forms are not properly accessible because tabbing doesn't read information such as e-mail address when tabbing into an edit field but you can't assume ever with an unfamiliar form that is at all complex, that you won't miss information if you just tab. Gene On 12/1/2022 1:57 PM, Bob Cavanaugh
wrote:
If a page is coded right, tabbing through should give enough information so that a screen reader user knows what to input into a form. Those that don't give that information aren't coded correctly, either out of ignorance or simply laziness. On 12/1/22, David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...> wrote:Hello NVDA, Voila, this is a lucky afternoon to see this topic here, thanks! This morning, I filled out a registration form where I had to read the information in each of the fields by arrowing down through the form itself. It took a bit longer but at least a trick worked! Is there a reason that fields are not announced by a screen reader if one uses the forward tab, but only 'edit' is heard with each field? Prior to Gene's post, I did not know down arrow provides more info, than tabbing through form fields. In defense of tabbing, this was taught to a group of us on how to use Windows Seven with a platform called DocuScribe when working for a transcription company in the early 2000s. Again, thanks! -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... Forgiveness is the final form of love. Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Not always. Mostly, however not always. I've had the actual text being read as part of the label. Sometimes I like that, sometimes I do not.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2022 12:25 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] RE Finicky Form Fields I don't know if what you were taught referred in any way to the internet. You can't assume what is true of one interface is true in general. For example, you can't assume that what you learn about moving through a dialog applies to a web page. As far as why, I believe that accessibility standards say that tabbing should read the descriptive information in the field such as e-mail address and then the kind of field it is, as in e-mail address, edit. but that isn't always the way the fields are set up. And even with that standard, there are forms that have information between fields that is actual text to be read giving information about what is expected to be entered in the form. That text isn't part of a field. It is text in the form to be read as though you were reading a document. Gene On 12/1/2022 1:52 PM, David Russell wrote: Hello NVDA, |
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I’ve tabbed and heard the question along with the instructions. I prefer that in a Q&A or survey form I often fill out for companies. It’s long to listen to, however it works, and when it is implemented correctly, works well.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2022 12:32 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Finicky Form Fields
Not necessarily. What if I am filling out a form and I see some check boxes by tabbing. Above the check boxes may be text that says something like, check all that apply. Or what if I see text that says check the choices that best describe your reaction to this sentence. Tabbing shouldn't be expected to read that information. It is not in a field and it may be just text. Or what if you see something that says, answer this question if, and then states a condition such as, if you use this or that product or if you were born outside of The United States. On 12/1/2022 1:57 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote: If a page is coded right, tabbing through should give enoughinformation so that a screen reader user knows what to input into aform. Those that don't give that information aren't coded correctly,either out of ignorance or simply laziness.On 12/1/22, David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...> wrote:Hello NVDA,Voila, this is a lucky afternoon to see this topic here, thanks!This morning, I filled out a registration form where I had to read theinformation in each of the fields by arrowing down through the formitself. It took a bit longer but at least a trick worked!Is there a reason that fields are not announced by a screen reader ifone uses the forward tab, but only 'edit' is heard with each field?Prior to Gene's post, I did not know down arrow provides more info,than tabbing through form fields. In defense of tabbing, this wastaught to a group of us on how to use Windows Seven with a platformcalled DocuScribe when working for a transcription company in theearly 2000s.Again, thanks!--David C. Russell, Authordavid.sonofhashem@...Forgiveness is the final form of love.Reinhold Niebuhr
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On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 03:31 PM, Gene wrote:
but you can't assume ever with an unfamiliar form that is at all complex, that you won't miss information if you just tab.- And you can't necessarily see all information even if you explore otherwise, except if you OCR. It is possible to break MS-Word fillable forms into sections, so that parts are read just like it were a regular document, while the fillable parts are protected, but most times you want the whole form protected with the exception of the form fields that you want the person to interact with. Ideally, you do design a form such that nothing but tab navigation is needed, with any "preamble text" such as you describe being associated with the first form item to which it applies. I've done things like making the label for the first checkbox in a section where "select as many as apply" to read as, "Select as many as apply, {actual checkbox name}," while the remainder just get their values read out without the preamble. There is no perfect way to go about this. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit "Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people. ~ Tom Masson |
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