Date
1 - 20 of 29
separate cursor for browse and focus modes?
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Bob Cavanaugh
Hi all,
Is there a separate cursor for browse and focus modes? When I check my email sometimes, more often with my school email than my personal one, I am not placed at the top of the page in the GMail interface, but rather somewhere down the page, where focus mode is automatically activated. I don't often pay attention to where I am, but I think that was something brought up on this list not too long ago. Where I am placed doesn't really matter, but since focus mode is automatically activated, I then press escape to return to browse mode and go to the top of the page, where I know I must then activate focus mode in order to get to the button that loads basic HTML. The problem is, when I then activate focus mode, I am not at the top of the page anymore as expected, but apparently back where I was put when I first logged in. So, what's happening here? Do browse and focus modes have a separate cursor? Thanks, Bob |
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Gene
You can avoid the whole problem by using this link to sign into GMail:
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https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/h/ If you can't use that link for some reason, let us know. I'll tell you how to find the button reliably. Gene On 11/25/2022 2:07 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Hi all, |
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Gene
To answer your first question, there is no separate cursor. The whole reason for Browse Mode is that web pages don't have cursors. The cursor you work with in browse mode isn't on the web page. NVDA creates and uses it.
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You can use object navigation while in focus mode but discussing that is a whole different subject and you would need to know how to use object navigation, if you don't. I created a tutorial on using object navigation. I can find a link to it and send it to you if you wish. Gene On 11/25/2022 2:07 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Hi all, |
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Abbie Taylor
Gene, I'm definitely interested in that tutorial on object navigation in focus mode. I sometimes use the Gmail site when Thunderbird isn't responding, and it might help me use that site more efficiently without constantly switching between focus and browse modes.
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On 11/25/2022 1:26 PM, Gene wrote:
To answer your first question, there is no separate cursor. The whole reason for Browse Mode is that web pages don't have cursors. The cursor you work with in browse mode isn't on the web page. NVDA creates and uses it. |
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Gene
You shouldn't have to use object navigation to any extent on the Internet. If you discuss the problems you have working with the site, those who use it regularly may discuss them and help you use it better.
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The link to the tutorial, which you may find helpful in various situations is: https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1HZ7oqhtmwWXGVvAivYL_0pi9AcHc3WjZ Since I don't know how you use your computer, I don't know if learning object navigation will help you to a meaningful extent but by listening to a little or some of it, you may be able to determine that. Gene On 11/25/2022 2:43 PM, Abbie Taylor wrote:
Gene, I'm definitely interested in that tutorial on object navigation in focus mode. I sometimes use the Gmail site when Thunderbird isn't responding, and it might help me use that site more efficiently without constantly switching between focus and browse modes. |
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Bob Cavanaugh
Hi Gene,
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I've only had to use object navigation a couple times, but they have been on websites that aren't designed properly. In the case of the Gmail site though, that is not one of them. The question still is, why am I not at the top of the page when I activate focus mode when I've made sure of it in Browse mode? On 11/25/22, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
You shouldn't have to use object navigation to any extent on the |
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Gene
Because on some pages, the virtual cursor in Browse mode doesn't line up with the actual page. You will see this on some other pages as well if you switch back and forth. That's why I said, in my instructions to move to the top of the page and tab once while in browse mode. I don't know technically why, but that aligns where you are in browse mode with where you are on the underlying page so my instructions will work consistently.
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Gene On 11/25/2022 3:23 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Hi Gene, |
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Abbie Taylor
Okay, thanks.
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On 11/25/2022 2:09 PM, Gene wrote:
You shouldn't have to use object navigation to any extent on the Internet. If you discuss the problems you have working with the site, those who use it regularly may discuss them and help you use it better. |
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On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 04:31 PM, Gene wrote:
Because on some pages, the virtual cursor in Browse mode doesn't line up with the actual page.- And as a sighted instructor, this is one of the things that made (and continues to make) me most insane. It's one of the reasons that Focus Highlight in NVDA is a lifesaver for those of us who can see, because it forces the virtual cursor position and the on-screen positions to remain in sync. For years it was insanity making to even try to determine where the user actually was in a webpage, etc., when there was no effort to keep what's on screen and what's being accessed in sync with each other. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit "Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people. ~ Tom Masson |
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Gene
Your message seems to be saying that with visual highlight on,
browse mode stays synchronized with the underlying page. I tested
it using Chrome and GMail and I found it to be true in this
instance. Evidently, it is generally the case. That is very useful
to know and it would solve a problem blind people have when not
working with a sighted person.
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I am off and on really inconvenienced when I want to switch to focus mode because I can't do something in Browse Mode on a page, only to have focus mode be nowhere near where I was working. Keeping Browse Mode and Focus Mode synchronized is an important improvement. I suggest that focus highlight be on by default since it keeps these modes synchronized. It isn't just of help to sighted people following what the blind user is doing. Gene On 11/25/2022 3:50 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 04:31 PM, Gene wrote: |
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Gene
Regarding my suggestion, it may be a bit complicated. Evidently, Focus highlight won't work when using a portable copy of NVDA. Is there a way to keep the synchronization in a way that will work in both the portable and installed versions?
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Since focus highlight seems not to work in a portable copy, perhaps having it on by default isn't the way to accomplish this, but there should be a way. Gene On 11/25/2022 3:31 PM, Gene wrote:
Because on some pages, the virtual cursor in Browse mode doesn't line up with the actual page. You will see this on some other pages as well if you switch back and forth. That's why I said, in my instructions to move to the top of the page and tab once while in browse mode. I don't know technically why, but that aligns where you are in browse mode with where you are on the underlying page so my instructions will work consistently. |
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Nermin
Hi Bob,
browse mode does not have a top or bottom. To put it differently, to a sighted user, browse mode doesn't even exist. So when you move to what you consider to be the top of a page, you're just moving on a blind-friendly rendering of that page. Once you go into focus mode, you can interact with the page in a way that will present elements or forms in tab order like a sighted person would traverse them when using the tab key. . I'm not sure how to better help you with that notion, but I hope it can at least clear some of your confusions. Regards, Nermin |
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Gene
I may have spoken too soon. I'd like to get other people's findings when they use this setting on pages where they have this problem. It may just have been a coincidence that things were better on the GMail page. When I tried it more, I had things happen that may show that things aren't any better for the blind user regarding alignment.
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This requires more work on different pages. Gene On 11/25/2022 4:20 PM, Gene wrote:
Regarding my suggestion, it may be a bit complicated. Evidently, Focus highlight won't work when using a portable copy of NVDA. Is there a way to keep the synchronization in a way that will work in both the portable and installed versions? |
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Gene
Its also worth stating, which I didn't before, that the reason you aren't at the top of the page when you open GMail is because JAVA script moves you you to where GMail thinks you would most likely want to be in terms of what you are most likely to want to work with.
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Its like what happens in Google search. When you open the search page, JAVA script places you in the edit field for typing a search. While I haven't asked, I'm sure a sighted user is placed in the edit field as well. Gene On 11/25/2022 4:25 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi Bob, |
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On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 05:25 PM, Nermin wrote:
To put it differently, to a sighted user, browse mode doesn't even exist.- I would argue this. You are correct in that you can't specifically interact with controls in browse mode, but when a read all is being done you are, indeed, somewhere in the webpage/document that can (and in my opinion, should) be followed visually on screen, whether there's a focus highlight involved or not. The virtual cursor does have a correspondence to what the sighted see, and keeping both in sync is worth doing, as far as I'm concerned, but that's mostly because I can see. When screen readers don't do this by default, particularly in workplace settings, collaboration between a screen reader user and a sighted colleague becomes much more challenging. Because the sighted have sight, we are trained to expect that what's visible on screen is "the general area" that's being dealt with. That will never change, nor should it, and it's apparent to me that screen readers can keep the virtual cursor position roughly (or perfectly) in sync with what's on the screen, scrolling that content as needed. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit "Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people. ~ Tom Masson |
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Laurie Mehta
What is Focus Highlight, and how is it accessed? I’m not familiar with it and it sounds useful. On Friday, November 25, 2022 4:51 PM Brian wrote: Focus Highlight in NVDA is a lifesaver for those of us who can see, because it forces the virtual cursor position and the on-screen positions to remain in sync. Thanks, Laurie |
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Laurie,
NVDA Settings, Vision Pane. You'll find the Focus Highlight checkbox there. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit "Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people. ~ Tom Masson |
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Laurie Mehta
Brian, Thanks very much for this information on how to get to Focus Highlight. -Laurie On Friday, November 25, 2022 10:05 PM
Brian wrote: NVDA Settings, Vision Pane. You'll find the Focus Highlight checkbox there. |
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Brian's Mail list account
I got the impression he in fact was querying about the way the focus mode is triggered on the first edit or interactive element that can be changed.
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This behaviour can of course be changed, but only globally not for each web site. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2022 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] separate cursor for browse and focus modes? To answer your first question, there is no separate cursor. The whole reason for Browse Mode is that web pages don't have cursors. The cursor you work with in browse mode isn't on the web page. NVDA creates and uses it. |
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Brian's Mail list account
Yes the other issue for a sighted helper is tab order or whatever you choose to call it. . I'm always getting told you just need to move your position left and down a bit for what you want,when as we all know that is not always how a page is laid out for its controls, as far as we are concerned. I also experience the, can you scroll the page as what you are hearing is not on the bit I can see.
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Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2022 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] separate cursor for browse and focus modes? On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 05:25 PM, Nermin wrote: - I would argue this. You are correct in that you can't specifically interact with controls in browse mode, but when a read all is being done you are, indeed, somewhere in the webpage/document that can (and in my opinion, should) be followed visually on screen, whether there's a focus highlight involved or not. The virtual cursor does have a correspondence to what the sighted see, and keeping both in sync is worth doing, as far as I'm concerned, but that's mostly because I can see. When screen readers don't do this by default, particularly in workplace settings, collaboration between a screen reader user and a sighted colleague becomes much more challenging. Because the sighted have sight, we are trained to expect that what's visible on screen is "the general area" that's being dealt with. That will never change, nor should it, and it's apparent to me that screen readers can keep the virtual cursor position roughly (or perfectly) in sync with what's on the screen, scrolling that content as needed. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit "Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people. ~ Tom Masson |
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