Hi all,
Well, my massive email cleanout that has been a project since April
2020 generates another question, though I think the first to this
list, or at least the first one in a while. As I read my messages,
NVDA says "out of link" whenever it encounters text that isn't a link
anymore in Outlook, but doesn't read this way when browsing the web.
Is there a way to make NVDA read links the same way in Outlook as it
does when browsing the web?
Bob

It is because Outlook treats email messages as Word documents - this is why links (and leaving links) are read as they would be in Word.  This is always why tables have traditionally been read like they have in Word rather than web tables.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 10:16 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Others may know of a setting, but I've never seen any that apply and I
don't think there is one.  You should be able to use the speech
dictionary to silence the phrase.

Gene

On 12/5/2022 5:13 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
> Hi all,
> Well, my massive email cleanout that has been a project since April
> 2020 generates another question, though I think the first to this
> list, or at least the first one in a while. As I read my messages,
> NVDA says "out of link" whenever it encounters text that isn't a link
> anymore in Outlook, but doesn't read this way when browsing the web.
> Is there a way to make NVDA read links the same way in Outlook as it
> does when browsing the web?
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Web: www.nvaccess.org 

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess

Actually, it does work the same way in Word and the web, it's just that it reports "out of link" when you navigate by character or word - which you are more likely to do in Word  It doesn't report out of link when you press down arrow or say all or jump to another element.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 9:51 PM Cyrille via groups.io <cyrille.bougot2=laposte.net@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Quentin

Your answer does not explain why the links are reported differently on a webpage than in an e-mail in Outlook (or a Word document). In other words, is this difference of behaviour intended or is it a bug? And if it is intended, what is the explanation?

Thanks.
Cheers,

Cyrille


On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 02:30 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

It is because Outlook treats email messages as Word documents - this is why links (and leaving links) are read as they would be in Word.  This is always why tables have traditionally been read like they have in Word rather than web tables.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 10:16 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Others may know of a setting, but I've never seen any that apply and I
don't think there is one.  You should be able to use the speech
dictionary to silence the phrase.

Gene

On 12/5/2022 5:13 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
> Hi all,
> Well, my massive email cleanout that has been a project since April
> 2020 generates another question, though I think the first to this
> list, or at least the first one in a while. As I read my messages,
> NVDA says "out of link" whenever it encounters text that isn't a link
> anymore in Outlook, but doesn't read this way when browsing the web.
> Is there a way to make NVDA read links the same way in Outlook as it
> does when browsing the web?
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Web: www.nvaccess.org 

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess

 

 

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Web: www.nvaccess.org 

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess

Actually it does not behave the same way in all cases:

E.g.: to paste in Chrome address bar:
data:text/html,<p><a href="http://www.google.com">Google</a></p><p>is a link</p>

With this example, if you use up/down arrow, you do not hear "out-of-link" in Chrome.
Now, copy/paste the whole content of tthe webpage in Word; to keep formatting, do not use NVDA's select all and copy but native one. That is NVDA+F2, ctrl+A, NVDA+F2, ctrl+C and then paste in Word.
In Word, using up/down arrow, you will here "out of link".

I do not know if it is the same thing as Bob is experimenting; but it definitely demonstrates that the behaviour is different between Word and Chrome in some cases.

Cyrille


On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 01:06 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Actually, it does work the same way in Word and the web, it's just that it reports "out of link" when you navigate by character or word - which you are more likely to do in Word  It doesn't report out of link when you press down arrow or say all or jump to another element.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 9:51 PM Cyrille via groups.io <cyrille.bougot2=laposte.net@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Quentin

Your answer does not explain why the links are reported differently on a webpage than in an e-mail in Outlook (or a Word document). In other words, is this difference of behaviour intended or is it a bug? And if it is intended, what is the explanation?

Thanks.
Cheers,

Cyrille


On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 02:30 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

It is because Outlook treats email messages as Word documents - this is why links (and leaving links) are read as they would be in Word.  This is always why tables have traditionally been read like they have in Word rather than web tables.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 10:16 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Others may know of a setting, but I've never seen any that apply and I
don't think there is one.  You should be able to use the speech
dictionary to silence the phrase.

Gene

On 12/5/2022 5:13 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
> Hi all,
> Well, my massive email cleanout that has been a project since April
> 2020 generates another question, though I think the first to this
> list, or at least the first one in a while. As I read my messages,
> NVDA says "out of link" whenever it encounters text that isn't a link
> anymore in Outlook, but doesn't read this way when browsing the web.
> Is there a way to make NVDA read links the same way in Outlook as it
> does when browsing the web?
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Web: www.nvaccess.org 

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess

 

 

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Web: www.nvaccess.org 

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess

I just checked this.  Even when using read to end, NVDA in Word says out
of link every time a link is left.  I'll leave it to others to discuss
this idea.  Should NVDA be scripted not to say out of link when in Outlook?

Gene

On 12/6/2022 6:37 AM, Cyrille via groups.io wrote:

Actually it does not behave the same way in all cases:

E.g.: to paste in Chrome address bar:
data:text/html,<p><a href="http://www.google.com">Google</a></p><p>is
a link</p>

With this example, if you use up/down arrow, you do not hear
"out-of-link" in Chrome.
Now, copy/paste the whole content of tthe webpage in Word; to keep
formatting, do not use NVDA's select all and copy but native one. That
is NVDA+F2, ctrl+A, NVDA+F2, ctrl+C and then paste in Word.
In Word, using up/down arrow, you will here "out of link".

I do not know if it is the same thing as Bob is experimenting; but it
definitely demonstrates that the behaviour is different between Word
and Chrome in some cases.

Cyrille


On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 01:06 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Actually, it does work the same way in Word and the web, it's just
that it reports "out of link" when you navigate by character or
word - which you are more likely to do in Word  It doesn't report
out of link when you press down arrow or say all or jump to
another element.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 9:51 PM Cyrille via groups.io
<http://groups.io> <cyrille.bougot2@...
<mailto:laposte.net@groups.io>> wrote:

Hi Quentin

Your answer does not explain why the links are reported
differently on a webpage than in an e-mail in Outlook (or a
Word document). In other words, is this difference of
behaviour intended or is it a bug? And if it is intended, what
is the explanation?

Thanks.
Cheers,

Cyrille


On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 02:30 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

It is because Outlook treats email messages as Word
documents - this is why links (and leaving links) are read
as they would be in Word.  This is always why tables have
traditionally been read like they have in Word rather than
web tables.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 10:16 AM Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

Others may know of a setting, but I've never seen any
that apply and I
don't think there is one.  You should be able to use
the speech
dictionary to silence the phrase.

Gene

On 12/5/2022 5:13 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
> Hi all,
> Well, my massive email cleanout that has been a
project since April
> 2020 generates another question, though I think the
first to this
> list, or at least the first one in a while. As I
read my messages,
> NVDA says "out of link" whenever it encounters text
that isn't a link
> anymore in Outlook, but doesn't read this way when
browsing the web.
> Is there a way to make NVDA read links the same way
in Outlook as it
> does when browsing the web?
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>


--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

Following on from Joseph's comments - I was testing using Office 365 on
Windows 11 so using UIA, hence my experience is the same in Word as in
Chrome (NVDA does NOT report out of link if leaving the link with down
arrow) - that explains the different experience we were getting.



On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 7:16 AM Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...>
wrote:

Hi,

What is the version of Outlook (major.minor.build) you've got? It's the
key piece of information that explains it all:

This happens because NVDA is told to use Microsoft Active Accessibility
in
combination with API provided by Word document controls (object model) to
interact with email messages, internally seen as a Word document by both
Outlook and NVDA. Telling NVDA to use UIA to access Word controls (NVDA
menu/Preferences/Settings/Advanced) resolves this but it will work best
with recent Outlook 365 releases.

How is this possible? Three reasons:

1. Code reuse: Office 365 (nowadays known as Microsoft 365) comes with
shared components, one of them being the abilit to use Word document
controls in places such as Outlook. This opens up possibilities such
as
converting Excel spreadsheets to tables when pasting in Word, or using
Word
document controls when composing email messages in Outlook.
2. Overlay classes: I will explain it in more detail a few days after
fall semester finals, but suffice to say that NVDA can detect that you
are
working with a Word document even if using Outlook (for resident
developers, this is not really defined at the app module level but as
part
of NVDAObjects package).
3. Different API's and approaches: even when you are working with a
control such as Word document control in Outlook (when writing
emails),
you'll get different information if using different API's to access
the
same thing. This is partly due to backward compatibility policy from
Microsoft, and what Bob is experiencing is an effect of this.

To Quentin: I think it would benefit folks if an explanation about this
thread can be published as part of a future In-Process blog post.

Cheers,

Joseph

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

Hi

Thanks Joseph for the reminder about UIA which makes the difference.
I am actually using an older version of Outlook 2016 on Windows 10, hence the use of MSAA and not UIA.

The question remains for people using MSAA for people using older but still supported Office versions and/or Windows 10. However we can imagine that NVAccess will not bother fix a such minor issue which only impacts software that will be out of date in a rather near feature and since the users may always force the use of UIA for Word if needed.

Cheers,

Cyrille

That's where using the speech dictionary will solve the problem.

Gene

On 12/7/2022 1:43 AM, Cyrille via groups.io wrote:

Hi

Thanks Joseph for the reminder about UIA which makes the difference.
I am actually using an older version of Outlook 2016 on Windows 10,
hence the use of MSAA and not UIA.

The question remains for people using MSAA for people using older but
still supported Office versions and/or Windows 10. However we can
imagine that NVAccess will not bother fix a such minor issue which
only impacts software that will be out of date in a rather near
feature and since the users may always force the use of UIA for Word
if needed.

Cheers,

Cyrille

The issue with the speech dictionary is that whenever NVDA encounters
the phrase out of link, it will be ignored. That seems like it would
cause more problems than it solves.

On 12/7/22, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That's where using the speech dictionary will solve the problem.

Gene

On 12/7/2022 1:43 AM, Cyrille via groups.io wrote:

Hi

Thanks Joseph for the reminder about UIA which makes the difference.
I am actually using an older version of Outlook 2016 on Windows 10,
hence the use of MSAA and not UIA.

The question remains for people using MSAA for people using older but
still supported Office versions and/or Windows 10. However we can
imagine that NVAccess will not bother fix a such minor issue which
only impacts software that will be out of date in a rather near
feature and since the users may always force the use of UIA for Word
if needed.

Cheers,

Cyrille

.

--

That's where using the speech dictionary will solve the problem.

Gene

Hi

Thanks Joseph for the reminder about UIA which makes the difference.
I am actually using an older version of Outlook 2016 on Windows 10, hence the use of MSAA and not UIA.

The question remains for people using MSAA for people using older but still supported Office versions and/or Windows 10. However we can imagine that NVAccess will not bother fix a such minor issue which only impacts software that will be out of date in a rather near feature and since the users may always force the use of UIA for Word if needed.

Cheers,

Cyrille

Bob,

The question is, how often do you encounter the actual phrase "out of link" in anything?  I'd say it's awfully close to zero in both typical documents and even tech documentation that is not screen-reader focused.

It's also possible to use either the temporary dictionary (more work) or a voice dictionary where you only use that voice when you're in Outlook, so this deletion would not be in effect elsewhere.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

"Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people.

       ~ Tom Masson

The issue with the speech dictionary is that whenever NVDA encounters
the phrase out of link, it will be ignored. That seems like it would
cause more problems than it solves.

On 12/7/22, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That's where using the speech dictionary will solve the problem.

Gene

On 12/7/2022 1:43 AM, Cyrille via groups.io wrote:

Hi

Thanks Joseph for the reminder about UIA which makes the difference.
I am actually using an older version of Outlook 2016 on Windows 10,
hence the use of MSAA and not UIA.

The question remains for people using MSAA for people using older
but still supported Office versions and/or Windows 10. However we
can imagine that NVAccess will not bother fix a such minor issue
which only impacts software that will be out of date in a rather
near feature and since the users may always force the use of UIA for
Word if needed.

Cheers,

Cyrille

.