Informational (with some geeky details): how does Python upgrade really take place, technical reasons for continued Windows 7/8/8.1 support
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Hello all, As Windows 7 and 8.1 support is ending from Microsoft in two days (as of time of this post), I figured this is the right time to talk about a question that’s been in some of our hearts in recent weeks: how come NVDA keeps supporting Windows 7, 8, and 8.1? The common answer is to support enterprises subscribed to Windows 7 extended security updates (ESU’s). But the underlying answer is quite geeky, requiring an explanation on how NV Access and contributors pulled off Python 2 to 3 transition in 2019 as the underlying answer is tied to this process. Before going any further, I would like to remind you to upgrade to Windows 10 and later. Once Microsoft ends support for Windows 7 and 8.1, there is no going back. Vendors such as Google will be ending support for soon to be unsupported Windows releases this year, and I expect NVDA to follow suit. So what exactly is holding back NVDA from moving to Windows 10 and later? Two issues with Python 3.8 and later – actually, three issues, but one of them can be resolved quite easily (explained later). I’m sure some of you were not expecting the answer I just gave. To fully grasp the situation, I will need to take you on a journey of Python 2 to 3 transition (many of you may have heard of this, and for folks who’ve been on this forum around 2019, you will remember me going on and on about Python 3 back then): As some of you may remember, in early 2020, NVDA 2019.3 was released. Prior to this release, NVDA was strictly a Python 2 screen reader; with 2019.3, NVDA became a Python 3 screen reader. This was driven by the fact that, effective January 2020, Python 2.7 became end of life. The transition took a better part of a year (2019) to plan and implement (named Project Threshold), involving rewriting NVDA source code, upgrading dependencies, and performing countless tests to make sure NVDA was working. The biggest challenge was add-ons (folks who saw my posts in late 2019 may recall posts from me about add-on compatibility), made a bit difficult since the community lost contact with some add-on maintainers; in the end, things worked out on the add-on side of things. During our Python 2 to 3 transition, Python 3.8 came out (late 2019), but NVDA is using 3.7. Fast forward to early 2021. Python 3.9 was released in 2020, ending support for Windows 7 and 8.0 (not 8.1 yet). But because 3.9 was new, NV Access decided to try upgrading to Python 3.8. The biggest change in 3.8 is what is known as “assignment expression” or a walrus operator (:=), which allows improved readability for some Python modules. The transition appeared to be going smoothly – there was a series of NVDA alpha builds in 2021 that was based on Python 3.8. Alas, a critical problem was found: on Windows 7 and 8.x 64-bit systems, a stack corruption bug was observed when navigating File Explorer. After some debugging sessions, NV Access found that it was caused by ctypes, a library that allows Python modules to interact with modules written in C. Mick Curran did offer a fix and test cases to Python developers, specifically to resolve stack corruption bug in ctypes. Mick noted that this did not happen with Python 3.7, so until the fix was implemented in a later Python release, NVDA was stuck with 3.7. It turns out the problem did exist in Python 3.9, so NV Access decided to abandon Python 3.8 transition and wait for the stack corruption fix to be included in Python. Fast forward to late 2022, and NV Access and contributors were put on high alert as the stack corruption fix Mick proposed was included in latest ctypes release, meaning that Python 3.11 would finally pave the way for NVDA to move onto newer Python releases. But it did not make the cut to 3.11.0 release (October 2022) but did make it to 3.11.1 (December 2022). However, a related COM (component object model) bug was discovered, with the fix for it not making time for 3.11.1 release (a pull request, written by someone outside NV Access, is awaiting review by Python developers). Without the COM object bug fix, NVDA cannot move to Python 3.11 and later (NV Access at one point considered Python 3.10 but the first bug fix did not make it to 3.10.x). My personal hope is that the second bug can be part of Python 3.11.2 (February 2023) or 3.11.3 (northern spring) so that NVDA developers can work on Python 3.7 to 3.11 transition in northern fall. And because Python 3.11 no longer supports Windows releases earlier than 8.1, and since Windows 8.1 is going out of support in two days, moving to Python 3.11 means saying goodbye to Windows 7, and if NV Access chooses to, saying goodbye to Windows 8.1 as well (I expect NV Access to indeed say goodbye to Windows releases earlier than 10). The third issue has to do with Python dependencies. NVDA relies on some third-party modules for various features, most notably wxPython (Python port of wxWidgets) for its GUI. Some dependencies did end support for Python 3.7, while others are planning to do so. For wxPython, there is a more pressing problem: there is no 32-bit installer package (wheel) – we need 32-bit wxPython because NVDA is running on top of a 32-bit Python interpreter (as for why this is the case, see an earlier message I posted about 32-bit to 64-bit transition and its benefits and difficulties); I did create a rudimentary 32-bit wheel, but several developers, including folks outside of NVDA project, expressed the need for 32-bit wheels for wxPython. So what can NVDA developers do with newer Python releases? Even though we will be saying goodbye to Windows 7, newer Python releases bring performance improvements, as Python developers spent years working on making Python speedier. Newer Python releases, especially 3.10 and later, brings changes that will make NVDA source code easier to read. One of the most exciting features in Python 3.10 and later is structured pattern matching, useful if a Python program such as NVDA would like to perform an action based on a text pattern (the most practical change for NVDA is more readable overlay class chooser for add-ons). For users, it makes NVDA more up to date (Python 3.7 is going out of support this year), and hopefully make it respond a bit better in some scenarios. The next question is state of add-ons once NVDA moves to newer Python releases. Unlike early 2020 when NVDA 2019.3 came out, I expect most add-ons to work with newer Python releases (some will require more work). Folks will be tempted to edit manifest files, but I can tell you that this will not be enough for several add-ons, more so if add-ons are using third-party Python dependencies. I expect the fuller picture to emerge when NV Access does announce a Python upgrade. A GitHub issue exists to track progress of moving to newer Python 3 versions: Again the above post should be read as informational, hopefully clarifying some things about why NVDA continues to support older Windows releases. Even then, I strongly advise everyone to move to Windows 10, or if your system is compatible, to Windows 11. Cheers, Joseph |
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enes sarıbaş
Hi Joseph, My understanding from this post, as well as the discussions on
Github that the first bug, which NVAccess waited to be fixed in
Ctypes, could be resolved by dropping Win7/8.1 support and moving
to 64 bit. It was mentioned that it only existed on 32 bit. Was
moving architectures such an undesirable consequence that an
upgrade was delayed for multiple years? On 1/8/2023 1:45 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
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Hi, It could be a factor. Moving to pure 64-bit Python means no direct support for 32-bit x86 apps, limited support for Windows 10 on ARM64 (because only 32-bit x86, no x64 apps can run on it), and requiring a bridge to talk to 32-bit DLL's and add-ons (notable ones being speech synthesizers). Also keep in mind that Windows 8.1 was still in support by Microsoft (market share says otherwise); when NVDA ended support for Windows XP in late 2017, Vista was out of support, hence it was easier to say that Windows 7 SP1 or later was required back then. But I do foresee a time in a not so distant future (say, about three to five years) when a pure 64-bit NVDA will be a thing or an attempt will be made to create it; the biggest holdout: Windows 10 as it is the last 32-bit Windows release; another potential factor: Python developers ending support for 32-bit architectures and operating systems (not at the moment). Cheers, Joseph |
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Brian's Mail list account
Well, I think the answer is there is no answer that does not inconvenience somebody.
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As with XP before it, in my view the main driver for small personal users will be if any critical changes occur in software they use on older systems. For example, I had to eventually abandon XP when dropbox made it online only support and then only with specific browsers. I suspect that in our case, we will go along until the messages about support being ended in a couple of months start coming in, and although I have windows 10 on a machine, I find it not very easy to use and just a little clunky. Is there any way to make older hardware work on Windows 11? I ask as this eternal changing of OS only to find a few years down the line you have to reinvent the wheel does get tiresome you have done it as many times as I have. For example, the other day I got win10 on a machine and could not figure out why my file copying batch files did not work. Turned out that by default in a rather obscure setting Windows was set to launch powershel instead of a straight command prompt. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "enes sarıbaş" <enes.saribas@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Informational (with some geeky details): how does Python upgrade really take place, technical reasons for continued Windows 7/8/8.1 support Hi Joseph, |
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Brian's Mail list account
Do you really mean that 32 bit is dead? I think you mean that a 32 bit version of 11 is not there, as I'm sure I'd have heard a lot of moans otherwise.
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I was talking to a friend of mine who is in love with his Windows 7. He asked me if he could make either 10 or 11 as 7 like from the user experience as possible. Does anyone know of an article that does this as I have come up empty on Mr Google but might be searching for the wrong thing. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Informational (with some geeky details): how does Python upgrade really take place, technical reasons for continued Windows 7/8/8.1 support Hi, It could be a factor. Moving to pure 64-bit Python means no direct support for 32-bit x86 apps, limited support for Windows 10 on ARM64 (because only 32-bit x86, no x64 apps can run on it), and requiring a bridge to talk to 32-bit DLL's and add-ons (notable ones being speech synthesizers). Also keep in mind that Windows 8.1 was still in support by Microsoft (market share says otherwise); when NVDA ended support for Windows XP in late 2017, Vista was out of support, hence it was easier to say that Windows 7 SP1 or later was required back then. But I do foresee a time in a not so distant future (say, about three to five years) when a pure 64-bit NVDA will be a thing or an attempt will be made to create it; the biggest holdout: Windows 10 as it is the last 32-bit Windows release; another potential factor: Python developers ending support for 32-bit architectures and operating systems (not at the moment). Cheers, Joseph |
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Hi, 32-bit is slowly dying - as of Windows 10 May 2020 Update, OEMs are no longer shipping 32-bit systems. While programs do exist to make Windows 10 and 11 user interface and experience mimic Windows 7, no program will bring back Windows 7 completely. As for critical apps ending support for Windows 7, if you count Chrome, Edge, and Firefox web browsers as critical apps, then expect more migration to Windows 10 and 11 throughout this year as Edge and Chrome will end support for anything earlier than 10 in February 2023 with Mozilla trying to decide what to do about Firefox on older Windows releases. The worst case scenario is WannaCry 2.0 (what happened with it in 2017 made people realize how vulnerable unsupported Windows releases were); I'm hoping it won't come down to that, but as people say, I expect history to repeat sooner or later. If needed, I will create a GitHub discussion about asking NV Access to close Windows 7 and 8.x specific issues on GitHub this year provided that they do decide to move to Python 3.10 and later. Cheers, Joseph |
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On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 04:02 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
I think the answer is there is no answer that does not inconvenience somebody.- This! I had exactly the same reaction when reading the article about 411 (directory assistance) rapidly meeting its demise when someone was quoted as saying, “There are a lot of people who, for various reasons, haven’t adapted. Why should they be forced to migrate to the web if they don’t want to?” Because, such is life. In the immortal words of the Rolling Stones, "Ya can't always get whatcha want." -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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Gene
If you explain why you find it a little clunky and not very easy to use, we can discuss why that is and you may no longer find it so. I'm telling you from personal experience that you can use Windows 10 mostly like XP if you don't want to use any of the new features that actually makes it faster and more convenient to do some thingts.
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Gene On 1/9/2023 3:02 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:
Well, I think the answer is there is no answer that does not inconvenience somebody. |
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On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 04:02 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Is there any way to make older hardware work on Windows 11?- I have heard this question ever since Windows 8.1, and I have yet to encounter a piece of hardware I could not continue using, save one: an Elon touchpad. We were just discussing this the other day on Technibble, a forum for computer support techs, and here's something I quoted from another tech there: I've got software (more than hardware) that dates from the XP era that runs just fine under Windows 11. I'm not saying that there is absolutely nothing that won't work in more modern versions of Windows, because that does exist, but it tends to be software that controls things like lathes and other manufacturing hardware. I have installed scads of drivers from the Windows 8 or Windows 7 eras on Windows 10. I even have an HP laptop that has Beats Audio that I have had to reinstall the original driver for that specific feature for several times during the era when Feature Updates obliterated the original. It's still running on that machine, which is running Windows 10, to this day. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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Gene
Again, Windows 7 is very similar to Windows 10 if you use it that way. I don't use Windows 11 but I have good reason to believe the same is true of Windows 11. There are minor differences in the start menu but they have little impact. There are differences in where some things are, not as much in Control Panel and more in Settings.
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Again, if you give specifics that you and your friend don't like, we can deal with them. We can't deal in a constructive way with generalizations. And if you are worried about ribbons, you don't have to use the ribbons in Windows 10 to get to places where you do things like tell it to show extensions and change the view such as to list or details and once you get to those places, they are extremely similar to what they were like in Windows 7 and they are similar to XP, for that matter. I have written about this before when you have made such comments. I won't do so again unless you show interest in seeing if what I say is correct. Gene On 1/9/2023 3:08 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:
Do you really mean that 32 bit is dead? I think you mean that a 32 bit version of 11 is not there, as I'm sure I'd have heard a lot of moans otherwise. |
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On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 11:44 AM, Gene wrote:
Again, Windows 7 is very similar to Windows 10 if you use it that way. I don't use Windows 11 but I have good reason to believe the same is true of Windows 11. There are minor differences in the start menu but they have little impact. There are differences in where some things are, not as much in Control Panel and more in Settings.- All absolutely true. And, by the way, you can still run 32-bit applications under 64-bit Windows 11 just like you could on Windows 10, 8.1, and 7. My Office 2016 is the 32-bit version. The major disruptor under Windows was 8.1, and even that could be easily tweaked (and I did just that for my partner) so that the day-to-day experience was so very much like Windows 7 when using the desktop that you wouldn't have known you weren't using Windows 7. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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Arlene
Hi, I’m not sure if you can make ten or eleven look like windows 7. I’m sorry he’s still in love with his 7 box. What will he do if that computer dies like mine did? I was going to leave it anyway because I knew it was dying. It decided to die while I was doing an online class. I liked 7 when I had it. I think 7 and ten are a bit a like. With 7 you can turn off the computer at either the desktop or the start menue. Ten you can do it at the desktop. A list member from this list told me to start turning it off at the desktop. I knew eventually I had to learn how to do it. I don’t know anything about 11. I think 7 and ten are a like. You do things a little different.
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Brian's Mail list account via groups.io
Sent: January 9, 2023 1:08 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Informational (with some geeky details): how does Python upgrade really take place, technical reasons for continued Windows 7/8/8.1 support
Do you really mean that 32 bit is dead? I think you mean that a 32 bit version of 11 is not there, as I'm sure I'd have heard a lot of moans otherwise.
I was talking to a friend of mine who is in love with his Windows 7. He asked me if he could make either 10 or 11 as 7 like from the user experience as possible. Does anyone know of an article that does this as I have come up empty on Mr Google but might be searching for the wrong thing. Brian
-- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2023 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Informational (with some geeky details): how does Python upgrade really take place, technical reasons for continued Windows 7/8/8.1 support
Hi,
It could be a factor. Moving to pure 64-bit Python means no direct support for 32-bit x86 apps, limited support for Windows 10 on ARM64 (because only 32-bit x86, no x64 apps can run on it), and requiring a bridge to talk to 32-bit DLL's and add-ons (notable ones being speech synthesizers). Also keep in mind that Windows 8.1 was still in support by Microsoft (market share says otherwise); when NVDA ended support for Windows XP in late 2017, Vista was out of support, hence it was easier to say that Windows 7 SP1 or later was required back then. But I do foresee a time in a not so distant future (say, about three to five years) when a pure 64-bit NVDA will be a thing or an attempt will be made to create it; the biggest holdout: Windows 10 as it is the last 32-bit Windows release; another potential factor: Python developers ending support for 32-bit architectures and operating systems (not at the moment).
Cheers,
Joseph
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But you get what you need!
Jason Bratcher |
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valiant8086
Hi.
Keeping readability for 32bit apps would be important. There are plenty of those still around. I think if the computer can run it, the screen reader should read it. JAWS won't read arm32 apps on my arm64 based Galaxy Book Go. I promptly stumbled into such a critter the built in mail app. You only need one app that you would have used to not work to make all the difference.
So it sounds to me like the problem here is that we couldn't update NVDA to newer Python versions due to a bug causing issues with it on Windows7. People here have argued that just dropping Windows 7 was the solution then. I argue that I'm blessed to be in the USA and I should realize that just because I can get a newer computer doesn't mean everyone can. Also Joseph talked about enterprise support where big guerilla companies still using Windows 7 for good reasons would still need NVDA supporting them until such time as at least Microsoft discontinues that support. That has just now happened, not multiple years ago, I'm quoting someone in this thread who slammed that decision and is wrong about said decision.
Only now is it to the point where it truly makes sense to move on if necessary. But the other thing I think I understood from the op is that should we now move on, we have to jump a couple of Python versions until we are on one that also does not support Windows 8.1 which may not be desirable, and thus we may be stuck with the version that supports Windows 7 for a little while longer depending.
On my part, I just did a simple repair on a computer running a Pentium 4 Northwood Processor from 2005 that someone sent me, (3.2ghz hyperthreaded, 1gb ram and 160gb hard drive) and it is actually running Windows 7 flawlessly. Right now my concern is about the end of the update stack for Windows itself, and the end of support for certain applications and that has me thinking on ways to continue being able to use this hardware that is still perfectly functional. Being on a p4 or earlier still today is a unique situation in that it lacked a critical instruction set required for Windows 8.1 and newer. A slightly newer computer would be able to run Windows 10. So the reason I say all this is pointing out that I know to some degree what it might feel like to lose the screen reader before losing the computer, and that is not what happened. The screen reader is still good to go on this 18 year old hardware although it is refusing to install some more current add-ons.
All that out of the way, it's worth noting that when you're running on an old OS, you can't expect to run more current software on top of it always. Usually you can up till a point. The way it'll work out is that what ever the last version of NVDA supporting 7 is will be the one to run on Windows 7 for instance. Just like my Windows xp virtual machine runs NVDA 2017.. Luckily the NVDA Remote add-on that will run under that version is functional against the most recent version of it running on NVDA 2022.4. AT some point that's likely not to be the case, but there's not much you can do with Windows xp other than just look at it these days anyway without being at undo risk.
I have a buddy who has a Dell with a core2duo that still runs Windows 7. He's going to wind up having to upgrade, perhaps he'll have me build one. But at least his hardware can run Windows 10 if he wants to go that rout. All the while however, the screen reader hasn't been the problem. It's not a good thing if your screen reader is the reason you can't use something.
Cheers: Aaron Spears, AKA Valiant8086 General Partner at Valiant Galaxy Associates "we make (VERY GOOD AUDIOGAMES) for the blind comunity" http://valiantGalaxy.com On 1/8/2023 3:18 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
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valiant8086
Hi.
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32bit is not dead, x64 processors and the x64 OS on it at least in the example of Windows anyway will run 32bit x86 programs. This includes the Windows 11 that may not be offered in a 32bit flavor anymore. Cheers: Aaron Spears, AKA Valiant8086 General Partner at Valiant Galaxy Associates "we make (VERY GOOD AUDIOGAMES) for the blind comunity" http://valiantGalaxy.com On 1/9/2023 4:08 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:
Do you really mean that 32 bit is dead? I think you mean that a 32 bit version of 11 is not there, as I'm sure I'd have heard a lot of moans otherwise. |
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valiant8086
Hi.
He'll cry about the loss right when it happens rather than before
it happens most likely. Some people function that way. He'll also
cry about the virus it got after it happened and not a minute
before.
Cheers: Aaron Spears, AKA Valiant8086 General Partner at Valiant Galaxy Associates "we make (VERY GOOD AUDIOGAMES) for the blind comunity" http://valiantGalaxy.com On 1/9/2023 4:31 PM, Arlene wrote:
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valiant8086
Hi.
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You can hack older hardware to run Windows 11. There's no guarantee the hack will stick and that Windows updates will continue although until now they have stuck and the updates have come down just fine. You can't hack a p4 to run it at least not in any way I know how to do. The missing instruction set became critical as of Windows 8.1 let alone 11. I have a Toshiba from 2011 running Windows11 ok. Transitioning from 7 to 11 however is not that big of a leap. The main difference is the settings app. The system tray is super anoying the way it reads and functions especially where you can't make it always show all icons without manually setting every single app one by one to display itself there. The control panel is supposed to go away eventually. In Windows10 it's still there in full but I find the settings app to be more efficient. However they've messed up the settings app in 11 with these buttons that toggle on and off displaying of certain categories that just makes it a mess and I'm totally not a fan especially from the viewpoint of a beginner. If you don't spend your whole life in this kind of stuff like I do you lack the patience it takes to expand every section and explore what appears. This is why Android had to drop the hardware menu button on cell phones because nobody ever hit it to see what was in the menu. This is a truly tragic move on Microsoft's part. Everyone else in my immediate surroundings couldn't click a button if it aimed for them, there's no way they're going to find this stuff. Microsoft told us Windows11 was going to be simpler. It's a lot more complicated. As someone used to using Windows every day, I have no trouble with it but I don't like it and I won't pretend that I do. I was the first person among all my friends to get on board with Windows 7, none of us ever really liked 8.0, I drug people with me onto 8.1 and certainly onto 10. I've built numerous computers with my own hands and tools. I use computers many hours every single day. I prefer a computer vastly more than using a smart phone. The broken system tray and the broken settings app are the pain in my ass on Windows 11. I don't care about the start menu although changing it so I have to tab several times to get to the all apps is annoying too. One nice change is the task manager which is a lot less laggy than the one in Windows 10. One bad change is file explorer which won't say anything or let you arrow when you hit windows+e. You have to tab and shift+tab any time you do that to actually get it to start letting you use it. This is on the dev and beta builds, I think it's still ok on the Toshiba at the moment. Windows11 has this bad habit of getting super sluggish for no apparent reason. Sometimes it is very responsive even moreso than Windows 10. Other times it locks up completely but the screen reader still works. It's very slow going between folders in file explorer even on a semi modern computer from 3 years ago. Other times that same computer will fly through the folders. I have not found any reason for this but it's happening enough to be a real problem. It can get so sluggish that typing letter navigation won't work, like if you type test looking for a folder called testing, it'll focus tangeant, then focus environment, then focus scripts, then focus tangeant again. It can't keep up well enough to realize you typed the letters quickly enough to spell out test and so just focus testing. A friend just came around complaining about his laptop being sluggish. The problem is it's a Ryzen 7 5700u processor with 16gb of ddr4x ram on an ssd. There's no performance bottlenecks there except that it came with Windows11. It usually runs very fast, but sometimes it slows even that impressive hardware to a crawl. Somebody on another mailing list was insisting on being on Windows11, but complaining about it being sluggish with it, lol when I suggested going back to Windows10 for the time being especially while it is still actually supported, they got all snoody on me. I am running Windows10 on my main computer until such time as I actually must go to Windows11. I'll worry about the regrets at that point. There's no reason to rip off the bandaid early. Win10 is supported until 2025 and I think it might go beyond that with ltsc support for enterprises. Cheers: Aaron Spears, AKA Valiant8086 General Partner at Valiant Galaxy Associates "we make (VERY GOOD AUDIOGAMES) for the blind comunity" http://valiantGalaxy.com On 1/9/2023 4:02 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:
Well, I think the answer is there is no answer that does not inconvenience somebody. |
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enes sarıbaş
Hi Aaron, We are privileged to be in the states, but I would argue that
people not able to aford upgrading, or enterprises being stuck
with older software are not valid reasons to support obsolete
software, and yes, Win7, and nbow 8/8.1 are all obsolete. Those
people can and should use the last compatible version of the
screen reader. Browsers are also going to be dropping support in
the next few months at most. Jaws not working on ARM32 apps is a
Jaws limitation they've announced on their webpage. NVaccess
shouldn't support outdated apps/systems into perpetuity it is long
long long overdue to drop 7 support, and should have been done
years ago. Perpetual support for outdated systems, and thus
lacking support for newer systems are one more reason I'm
consdiering going with Jaws completely instead of NVDA. They take
their support lifecycle much more seriously, and keep their code
up to date and drop support for legacy systems when the experience
on those systems impacts newer systems. On 1/15/2023 12:30 PM, valiant8086
wrote:
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On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 03:10 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:
Perpetual support for outdated systems, and thus lacking support for newer systems are one more reason I'm consdiering going with Jaws completely instead of NVDA.- Believe it or not, enes, I'm with you on the whole. But you keep saying this, and appear to believe it to be a threat, of sorts. If you're not happy with NVDA then, by all means, seek out an alternative. But no matter what any software house chooses to do, it's never going to be based on one user's input. There is legitimate reason for a product like NVDA to do backward compatibility longer than a commercial product might. But I agree that there need to be strict limits and timelines for doing so, and so far NVAccess has not been willing to give "drop dead" dates well in advance of their occurring. Even if passive backward compatibility (that is, no real effort to provide it, but nothing has yet broken as a result of moving forward) were to extend past a drop dead date, that date should be the hard and fast one after which, if anyone is using the unsupported OS (or other software NVDA might run over), that there is no recourse for getting a fix. Ultimately, time marches on, and has to. Those who really, really cannot get newer hardware or software should be "stuck with" the last compatible versions of whatever it is they're using in combination. You don't try to hold the computing world back for a very select few, ever. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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enes sarıbaş
Hi Brian, True, software lifecycle decisions aren't really based on user
input, they're based on what the devs determine they will do with
the software, which is fair. Afterall, it is their software. And
Brian, right now, older Oses did hold NVDA back. Joseph just
stated on this thread that NVAccess was waiting for a wx bug to
get fixed, that was only a factor in 32 bit systems, and windows
7. This is also on the github linked issue as well. So
essentially for about two years, NVDA python was held hostage for
an obsolete OS bug that didn't exist in newwer Oses. I do plan
on switching screen readers, but there are a few issues that hold
me back that exist with Jaws, but NVDA is becoming more and more
of a nuisance to use to use on Windows 11 64 bit. Freedom
scientific had a 64 bit Jaws since 2009, and NVDA absolutely is
way overdue in having one. There are issues Brian, that exist
with having a 32 bit screen reader on 64 bit. Java access bridge
64 bit works with 64 bit screen readers. NVAccess devs had to
import a 32 bit bridge DLL into NVDA from an unsupported version
of Java to make java work with NVDA This is also on github. NVDA
can't work with 64 bit synthesizers, there is no hack to make it
work. There also won't be as much of a performance penalty when
you take the 64 to 32 bit bridge out of the equasion to
communicate with apps. On 1/15/2023 2:19 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 03:10 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote: |
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