Hello all,

I am still unable to quite understand when should we use o and m single
navigation keys when we are navigating the web.


Would you please give me some examples or illustrations?

Thanks.

William wrote:

I am still unable to quite understand when should we use o and m single navigation keys when we are navigating the web.

M moves to things that NVDA calls "frame". Frames aren't as popular as they once were, but you still find them sometimes, not that I can think of any examples.

O moves to things that NVDA calls "embedded object" and "Dialog". The latter is especially valuable, since many websites do things in dialogs that appear in strange places on the page, such as the very bottom, or half way down. Well, I'm sure the places are not strange to the sighted usually, but to us it's strange.

HTH

Luke

William wrote:

I am still unable to quite understand when should we use o and m single navigation keys when we are navigating the web.

M moves to things that NVDA calls "frame". Frames aren't as popular as they once were, but you still find them sometimes, not that I can think of any examples.

O moves to things that NVDA calls "embedded object" and "Dialog". The latter is especially valuable, since many websites do things in dialogs that appear in strange places on the page, such as the very bottom, or half way down. Well, I'm sure the places are not strange to the sighted usually, but to us it's strange.

HTH

Luke

William wrote:

I am still unable to quite understand when should we use o and m
single navigation keys when we are navigating the web.

M moves to things that NVDA calls "frame". Frames aren't as popular as
they once were, but you still find them sometimes, not that I can
think of any examples.

O moves to things that NVDA calls "embedded object" and "Dialog". The
latter is especially valuable, since many websites do things in
dialogs that appear in strange places on the page, such as the very
bottom, or half way down. Well, I'm sure the places are not strange to
the sighted usually, but to us it's strange.

HTH

Luke

Hello all,

I am still unable to quite understand when should we use o and m single navigation keys when we are navigating the web.


Would you please give me some examples or illustrations?

Thanks.






.

William wrote:

I am still unable to quite understand when should we use o and m single navigation keys when we are navigating the web.

M moves to things that NVDA calls "frame". Frames aren't as popular as they once were, but you still find them sometimes, not that I can think of any examples.

O moves to things that NVDA calls "embedded object" and "Dialog". The latter is especially valuable, since many websites do things in dialogs that appear in strange places on the page, such as the very bottom, or half way down. Well, I'm sure the places are not strange to the sighted usually, but to us it's strange.

HTH

Luke





.

What is that search area on Amazon Sites called? Is it a landmark? For beginners its a real pain to get away from.

Brian

Hi,

Embedded objects are not really format markers. What NVDA means by embedded objects are web application controls, dialogs, audio/video objects, among many others. YouTube website is a good example where the video player is recognized as an embedded object by NVDA.

Cheers,

Joseph

Hi,

I think what's happening is that websites are not communicating the role of "embedded object" to NVDA - rather, the underlying role such as "video player" and "dialog" are communicated to the screen reader. In some ways, this could be an attempt to communicate the idea that web content isn't solely a read-only document thing anymore - it is dynamic and consists of many elements and roles that make up a single page. I think we might as well edit the user guide to point out more recnet updates (Quentin, any thoughts?).

Cheers,

Joseph

William wrote:

I am still unable to quite understand when should we use o and m
single navigation keys when we are navigating the web.

M moves to things that NVDA calls "frame". Frames aren't as popular as
they once were, but you still find them sometimes, not that I can
think of any examples.

O moves to things that NVDA calls "embedded object" and "Dialog". The
latter is especially valuable, since many websites do things in
dialogs that appear in strange places on the page, such as the very
bottom, or half way down. Well, I'm sure the places are not strange to
the sighted usually, but to us it's strange.

HTH

Luke

William wrote:

Hmm, so usually frame is something like another page is loaded in a page, is it something like that is a frame?

That's technically an iframe (inline frame), but yes.
They incorporate all or part of some other page, within the page you are reading. To quote tech target: They are commonly used for advertisements, embedded videos, web analytics and interactive content.

There's one of them on this page: https://www.w3schools.com/html/html_iframe.asp
(Actually there's two, but the Google analytics one is hidden.)

There is, however, also the now obsolete, classical type of frames, which are used to show a page with two different parts of usually the same website, on the same page. Often I see these used in domain redirects, where you want to have the domain load a different domain's content, while the address bar still shows the first domain.

The most recent use I saw for it, was in the software I used to generate a readable version of Mary's PDF (see another topic on this or the chat list). It had a large table of contents shown down the (I think left) of the screen, and the actual document in the middle. Each was their own frame. Visually, it may be that they could be scrolled independently, I'm not sure.

There are more popular ways to do that now, with style sheets, but it is still done sometimes.

Here's one with three frames: http://www.maths.surrey.ac.uk/explore/nigelspages/frame2.htm

The m and Shift+M commands can jump through both kinds of frames.

Oh I don't know we could use o to access dialogue.

I had forgotten about that myself. Ironically, I happened to notice it a couple days ago, while looking for a place to write something new in the user guide.

Luke

This may not matter enough to pursue but I can get to the video player on the youtube site by issuing o once from the top of the page.  To move by landmark, I need to issue d three times.  I seldom work directly with the player, but its nice to know I can get there with one command. 

However, this sort of information may be so minor that it may not be worth updating NVDA to have embedded object be announced in such cases. 

I'm not sure what you think might be updated in the user guide, but it might be a good idea to have a brief comment that it may save people time to try using the o command in such cases as players and dialogs if they want to see if they can move to these items more efficiently even if NVDA doesn't announce them as embedded objects.

I don't know if any other items may be found in this way.

Gene

On 1/28/2023 10:39 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

I think what's happening is that websites are not communicating the role of "embedded object" to NVDA - rather, the underlying role such as "video player" and "dialog" are communicated to the screen reader. In some ways, this could be an attempt to communicate the idea that web content isn't solely a read-only document thing anymore - it is dynamic and consists of many elements and roles that make up a single page. I think we might as well edit the user guide to point out more recnet updates (Quentin, any thoughts?).

Cheers,

Joseph