Object Navigation - Are there definite times it should be used?
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I don't know exactly how to phrase the question I'm trying to ask. I am playing with NVDA with a backup and recovery suite, and I've already determined it's not particularly accessible just from the labeling standpoint, but I am encountering things that it appears I can only navigate via object navigation.
The primary one is something that gets announced initially as a "grouping." The only way I can interact with what are, to a sighted user, "buttons" in this grouping are to use object navigation commands to traverse them. I still have not entirely wrapped my head around object navigation simply because: 1. I have had limited experience using it. 2. I have no clear idea of exactly when it should be used. Clearly, when a grouping is announced, that means that if you want to interact with the individual items (and, perhaps, items contained within each item) you have to use object navigation to do so. Does there exist some list, somewhere (and I'm not finding it in the User Guide, or am missing it), that tells an end user that when they hear NVDA announce a certain "thing," and grouping would be among those things, that object navigation should be used specifically to traverse it/them? -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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Gene
I wouldn't assume that grouping means that. I see lots of times
when I am moving through ribbons that grouping is spoken.
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The way I determine if I need to use object navigation is when I can't do something from the keyboard. I doubt there is any other way to know. Gene On 1/29/2023 5:06 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
I don't know exactly how to phrase the question I'm trying to ask. I am playing with NVDA with a backup and recovery suite, and I've already determined it's not particularly accessible just from the labeling standpoint, but I am encountering things that it appears I can only navigate via object navigation. |
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On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 06:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I wouldn't assume that grouping means that. I see lots of times when I am moving through ribbons that grouping is spoken.- I would, because context matters. We've both discussed how the ribbons work, and the terminology used by the screen reader when in them. But when I encounter "Grouping" when not traversing a ribbon, that's an entirely different thing. I could have been clearer, but it becomes impossible to focus at times if contexts that are clearly not pertinent get dragged in to others. There has got to be some broad way to know when you are hitting things that will require object navigation other than trial and error. It may not be perfect, but a systematic approach has *got* to exist. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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Gene
I don't know what grouping is as you are using it. I have never
seen any discussion of what you are asking. As far as I know, what
I am saying is the usual way users decide whether to try object
navigation.
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Gene On 1/29/2023 5:17 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 06:09 PM, Gene wrote: |
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On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 06:51 PM, Gene wrote:
I have never seen any discussion of what you are asking.- Which is precisely the reason I am asking. The specific case is trying to navigate the main screen of EaseUs To Do Backup Free 2023, and it is clear that it is not accessible on the whole. But smack dab in the middle of the process, after you've tabbed through two buttons, you land on what NVDA announces as a grouping, and contained in that grouping is what visually appears as an Add Backup button (but it's not a button in the screen reader sense) along with "buttons" for any backups you may have already created. This can't be the only place where this sort of structure is used, but I'd hope that in other places the labeling on some of the objects contained in that grouping would be more human friendly than these are. I know what they are, and each gets announced, but not in such a way that any new user would have any idea of what it is they've encountered. I'm interested in general principles that, when looking at a user interface, web page, etc., indicate that object navigation is probably the way you're going to have to deal with a given situation. And since NVDA (and screen readers in general) announce the controls or objects you've landed on, e.g. button, link, and you know how to activate those two, there should be no reason that a general, "If the screen reader announces {insert list of things here}, when you hear any one of those, object navigation is likely to be your best bet," assessment cannot be made by the user. I hope those with the deep background on how object navigation came to be might be able to express this succinctly. Pretty much in the form, "If the screen reader announces . . . expect that object navigation will be required." I have to believe that object navigation came into being in response to a new class of coding, and those classes tend to have very specific objects/types/things connected to them. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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In one of the apps I use, all you hear when you tab is “pane.” So I count panes, then go into objectr mode and click buttons as necessary, which in this case works, not so with other programs I’veused.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2023 4:13 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Object Navigation - Are there definite times it should be used?
On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 06:51 PM, Gene wrote:
- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 -- ---------- Sarah Alawami, owner of flying Blind. Visit my website to read my story. Windows 11 22H2 (x64) build 22621.963 NVDA Version: 2022.3.3 Microsoft 365 MSO (Version 2211 Build 16.0.15831.20098) 64-bit |
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Gene
See this article from the early days of NVDA development.
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https://www.jantrid.net/2009/10/object-navigation-why-is-it-okay-for.html I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are saying but object navigation was incorporated into NVDA long before screen review and it appears to me you are suggesting it was done so for other reasons than those stated in the article. I don't think it was. Gene On 1/29/2023 6:12 PM, Brian Vogel
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On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 06:51 PM, Gene wrote: |
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Travis Siegel
Interestingly enough, what you're describint for grouping where object navigation is useful is exactly how the voiceover screen reader works on OSX. I really like that method of access, and it makes a lot of sense once you get used to it. As far as I know, NVDA is the only windows screen reader to introduce anything close to that mode. I do use object navigation a lot, just because I got very comfortable with it under mac osx, and really like the ability to do the same under windows when possible.
On 1/29/2023 6:06 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
I don't know exactly how to phrase the question I'm trying to ask. I am playing with NVDA with a backup and recovery suite, and I've already determined it's not particularly accessible just from the labeling standpoint, but I am encountering things that it appears I can only navigate via object navigation. |
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Gene
NVDA mode is compared to the Touch Cursor in JAWS. I haven't used
the Touch Cursor much, but I can see why it is compared. It is more
or less similar.
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Gene On 1/29/2023 7:33 PM, Travis Siegel
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On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 08:33 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:
I really like that method of access, and it makes a lot of sense once you get used to it.- And I think I really could get used to it if I were to have some "gut feel" for when I should go that route upon encountering the situation. As it stands now, I generally get as frustrated as I would suppose many screen reader users do when they know that "something's there" but it can't seem to be accessed. In this life in general, I have always found it easier after I know when to switch gears than I did prior to gaining that knowledge. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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Mary Otten
Well, this isn't helpful, but I have to say that one of the
things I disliked about the Mac, which I don't use any more, was
all that damned interaction. I really, really, really, just wish
everything would be accessible with the keyboard as well as the
mouse. It has made life a whole lot more complicated with all the
various ways they design stuff now, and you are left hanging to
figure out what to do. Might be fine for folks in their younger
years. But when you have been around this stuff in various ways
for decades, memorized this and that and the other way of doing
things on various systems, after a while, it becomes too much.
Ok, that is a rant and probably not on topic. But it really is a problem for a lot of us who are not exactly getting younger. <sigh>
Mary
On 1/29/2023 5:33 PM, Travis Siegel
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Hi, Two things:
Cheers, Joseph |
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Gene
This is a rather long message, a little like a tutorial but I don't
see any other way to explain what I'm saying. I hope, BRian, it
helps you understand and gives you ideas of how to move around in
and understand objects better by doing so in different contexts.
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I don't think object navigation has any resemblance to the way the screen looks. I don't want to assume things when using it. I may find a window or be in one that suggests to me that something is underneath it, in other words an object I can move into but that doesn't mean I'll be in the object I want. I don't think it makes sense to concentrate on what you hear such as grouping. I'm not saying to ignore it but I don't think you can work with objects well a lot of the time, unless you look around. Take Notepad. If I open Notepad and write a bit of text, I am in the object that is the document. I can't move to the right or the left. I can't move down. If I move up one level, I am in an object that says Untitled Notepad window. If I then move down, I am not back in the object I left, I am in an object that says System Contains commands to manipulate the window. If I see if there is an object below that, I am in a smaller object that says just system, submenu. That is the only object on this level. On the level above, which I just left, I am in a much larger object and I can move using the object review keys, to a number of items in the object. The only way to know this, not guess, but know what I can move through, is to try it. Try using 7 8 and 9 to move to different items in this object. Let's return to the item I was in before, the item that says system submenu. I got there by moving up one object from the document window, then moving down two objects. I can open this object with numpad insert numpad plus. I am then in the system menu. Each item, Restore, move, size, etc. is a single object. This is nothing like what appears on screen. I'm not saying certain words won't give you an idea of whether it may be more or less likely something you want to work with is below where you are but I am saying that in large part, the way to work with objects is to look around and to guess. You may save a little or perhaps some looking around if you have seen something similar before you think may produce results. For example, in many dialogs, I may be in the ok object. There is no object to the right or left. If I move up one object, I can move through a larger object I am in and see a lot of things I couldn't see before I moved up. If I want to get to an error message to copy it to the clipboard, I may have to move up to the object above the ok button to see it. I simply don't think making a point of concentrating on trying to learn this or that role or text is a good way to work with object navigation well a lot of the time. As I said, guessing or knowing this or that may save you some time but I don't think it is the generally good way to work with object navigation. Yes, this or that indication may tell you you may want to move down to the next object, but I'm trying to point out that you may have to move up instead, depending on where you are. While I probably can assume that if I am in an ok button object, that there are no objects to the left and right, I don't want to assume so I look before moving up. I may try moving down just to be sure I can't. I just don't want to assume, even though I don't expect to find anything where I am and that I'll have to move up. I think the only good way to really get a feel for object navigation is to do it. Gene On 1/29/2023 8:42 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
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Travis Siegel
Gene, what you failed to mention is that after going up one level, then going back down one level, you're still on the same level where you started, only you're placed on the first object, which is also on that same level. This is why you're in the system menu. Moving to the right will eventually get you back to the edit field where you started. This is most definitely a considerably better method for getting a feel for how the screen is laid out than you'd normally get with a screen reader. Admittedly, NVDA doesn't follow the model as rigorously as the mac does, so you don't get an exact picture of how things are laid out on the screen, but it's a whole lot closer then you get by not using the object navigation. Before I learned to use the mac and it's object model, then started using NVDA, when I wanted a sighted person to find something on the screen, I usually had to walk them through the process of getting to the portion of the screen a single step at a time, and even then, it was often difficult to place their point of view where I needed it, because tab order isn't always the way things are laid out on the screen. This is something that doesn't make sense to most screen reader users, because they've never seen a screen, and thus they don't understand why something can't be found by a sighted user when they say it's next to the piece of text that says x,y,z, or the link that says a,b,c. With object navigation, I can tell them, look to the right of this graphic, or look underneath this button, and they immediately know where on the screen I'm talking about. I get that it's not an easy thing to grasp, because screen reader users aren't used to thinking in the way that makes object navigation so useful, but ask anyone who is really good with the mac, and you'll find someone who does grasp the concept, and (generally) loves it. Honestly, if the apple eccosystem wasn't so expensive, I'd have never come back to windows at all, but when my last mac died, I actually went to linux, (using a raspberry pi as my main computer for more than a year) before obtaining an all-in-one machine that had windows 8.1 on it, and that's the only reason I moved back to the windows world. I know it's a paradigm shift the way object navigation works, but if you can wrap your head around it, you'll find it's a much better representation of what the screen visually looks like, and in that regard, you're miles ahead of other screen reader users, because you're not limited to guessing where things are on the screen. Once you understand it, you can most definitely (in over 90 percent of cases) tell a sighted person exactly where to look on the screen to find the thing you want them to see, with no hesitation or guesswork. That's the main reason I thoroughly enjoy such a useful feature.
On 1/29/2023 10:38 PM, Gene wrote:
This is a rather long message, a little like a tutorial but I don't see any other way to explain what I'm saying. I hope, BRian, it helps you understand and gives you ideas of how to move around in and understand objects better by doing so in different contexts. |
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Luke Davis
On Jan 29, Brian Vogel wrote:
to express this succinctly. Pretty much in the form, "If the screen reader announces . . . expect that object navigation will be required." I have toYes, only in that the "new class of coding", was the development of the graphical user interface. Objects came first. Objects are the way that NVDA understands the screen. So in one sense, object relationships, and thus object navigation, is both the most primitive, and the most advanced, way of understanding the screen, as Gene and Travis have explained very well. While there may be a few "rules of likelihood" that you may try to follow, I have always found that object nav is most useful, when it's most useful. I know, that sounds like a flippant answer, but it's not meant to be. I vastly prefer to use NVDA when it understands the object, application, document, whatever, that I'm looking at, in some higher level way. But when I find that the information I can get isn't telling me what I need to know, or what I expect to be there, or is in some other way incomplete: that's when I break out object navigation. IMO, from a user point of view, Gene's way of looking at this is the right and expected one. Object nav is a powerful but sometimes tricky, method of getting information out of an application, when the other methods provided don't work. Or, if you're bent that way, you can use it all the time, preferentially, as if you were on a Mac. There are reasons I don't use the Mac, and while this is a small one, it is one--I come from the commandline world, spent 30 plus years there, and flat review is the way I think, wrong or not. You know it is time to use it, when what you were doing fails to produce the expected results. You can get a "feel" for times you might need to use it (as opposed to just when you *want* to use it, as Travis describes), but generally that is very application or context specific. When, for example, exploring an app which has badly coded areas, bad accessibility properties, or has otherwise not been designed with accessibility in mind. That's when object nav becomes necessary, instead of just optional. I'm sorry I don't have something more scientific than that. Joseph pointed out why grouping is a case where you *might* have to use it, but in a well written (for accessibility) application, you won't need to, because arrows/tab/review will get you where you need to go without it. A use-case in one application might be absent in another, because the second application had accessibility in mind, or just happens to have better execution from an accessibility point of view. Luke |
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Robert Doc Wright godfearer
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joseph didn't you have an audio file that walked us
through object navigation?
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Hi, Ah yes - Welcome to NVDA tutorial series. I have no plans to produce the fourth edition to cover what's going on with 2022.4 as NV Access does provide a basic training module that goes over object navigation. I might as well write an Inside Story post explaining object navigation, but to provide a high-level explanation: Think of using object navigation as using a microscope or a magnifying glass to zoom in and out of GUI elements on screen. A much better way of saying is the concept of "containers" - screen elements are contained inside one another. This is perhaps the crux of parent-sibling-child relationships as NVDA sees it - when you move to and from parent/next/previous/child objects, you are effectively asking NVDA to "zoom" parts of a screen. A good way to test the "zoom" analogy is object location command. There are two commands: location of the caret (NVDA+Numpad Delete in desktop layout, NVDA+Delete in laptop layout) and location of the review cursor (add shift to the commands listed); the one we're interested in is the latter because object navigation will move the review cursor. After performing next/previous/parent/first child object commands, perform review cursor location command, and you will notice NVDA will announce different things (you may hear nonsense if the element you are reviewing is offscreen). Object location command will query what is called a "bounding rectangle" - an imaginary rectangle that surrounds the object in question. Generally, NVDA will announce:
A more technical explanation is the concept of "window ownership and ancestry. In Windows (or in some other GUI frameworks), a screen element (or an object) is a window (not to be confused with the window role). Almost all windows have a parent, a window that either owns or defines the element one is reviewing (owned windows refer to relationship between top-level windows, whereas parent-child relationship is the one closely associated with object navigation in this context). The ultimate owner of almost all windows, and hence the ancestor of screen elements you interact with, is the desktop window (you can't go further up than that). Hope this clarifies a lot. Cheers, Joseph |
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William
Like the about screen of nvda, you can use the object navigation to navigate to the text.
Gene 於 30/1/2023 07:09 寫道:
I wouldn't assume that grouping means that. I see lots of times when I am moving through ribbons that grouping is spoken. |
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Robert Doc Wright godfearer
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Has "nvda_tutorial_3Objects" been updated for
windows 11? I discovered that navigating settings has changed. for
example, after activating system with NVDA+enter, pressing NVDA and right or
left numpad arrows moves me through the list instead of letting
me see what is linked to systems.
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Hi, No, and I have no plans to update it at this time. Cheers, Joseph |
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