Quoting:

Since caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) is on the shoulders of the buyer, the merchant/offering party is really not relevant.  The buyer can do, or not do, their due diligence.
end quote:

However, if a buyer who is not a merchant deals with a merchant,

The buyer is not totally on the hook for “buyer be ware”;

For services, or transactions between two nonmerchants regarding goods, then you absolutely correct.

Merchants who sell to nonmerchant buyers are held to a different/higher standard.

Hence, the merchant cannot claim “buyer be ware” as a end all defense.

That’s all I’m saying.

 

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 4:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Customizing what keys are spoken when command keys are turned on?

 

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 05:03 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

not if I am a merchant

-
Uh, sure.

Since caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) is on the shoulders of the buyer, the merchant/offering party is really not relevant.  The buyer can do, or not do, their due diligence.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 05:11 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

Hence, the merchant cannot claim “buyer be ware” as a end all defense.

That’s all I’m saying.

-
OK, good information to know.

All I was trying to say is that you (any you) as the consumer are responsible for doing whatever due diligence is required before acquiring something, and whether via sale (in which case the Latin would be literal) or just accepting something such as an NVDA Add-On.

In this case the context was really the NVDA Add-On, which while free, requires the person who intends to use it to "do their homework."  And the more complex the add-on, the more homework will be required.  I can't know what's good, better, best, or just plain horrible for you. You do.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 05:03 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:

not if I am a merchant

-
Uh, sure.

Since caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) is on the shoulders of the buyer, the merchant/offering party is really not relevant.  The buyer can do, or not do, their due diligence.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 10:42 AM, Gene wrote:

I'd like it to be clarified if the add-on makes a lot of changes by default.  If so, then I thing a sentence such as I am discussing should be included. 

-
This is a serious question, with no snark intended:  Should be included where?

I have no issue, none, with the mention of something like this on this group.  But beyond being some broad, "Word of Warning," it still comes down to the person choosing an add-on, any add-on, to check out what it does.

If you're not talking about being mentioned/included in group discussions, then the "where" is likely in the add-on's documentation.  And we've circled right back to my central premise.  In the end, it is those who chose something that need to evaluate it, whether before or after the choice.  And if they refuse to do so, or act shocked when they get side effects they didn't anticipate, I don't know what you believe can be said that would help, generically, other than a word of warning about extensiveness of changes.

Caveat emptor applies to all sorts of buying.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 12:33 PM, Rui Fontes wrote:

this is all we want since a long time ago.

-
Then people need to create new GitHub requests and/or comment existing ones that are not closed.  As I noted earlier, if you do re-open a given request that has associated old, closed tickets, it pays to reference them.

We are blessed to have a couple of regulars here who are very closely allied with NVAccess and who can and do feed some of the chatter here along to "inside ears" that would benefit from hearing it.  But, no matter how often that happens, this is not how projects, any projects, handle change management

NVDA users are also blessed by the fact that NVAccess is using GitHub and that anyone in the world can create a GitHub account so that they can directly submit bug/issue reports and/or feature requests.  I am only too well aware of the tedium it takes to get "up to speed" on doing either of those.  I had to do it myself and did.  I've written tutorials in order to make the process much easier for the uninitiated.  But in the end, if you want change you need to use the official communication mechanism to get it.  And it's more than a communication mechanism for those at NVAccess, it's a full project managment suite that gets used for setting priorities, scheduling fixes or new features into releases, etc.  That's how it's done.  For most of the things that most of us use, we simply do not have the option of communicating as directly with those doing the work as we do for NVDA.

Rui, I definitely believe that you already know all of the above.  It was written far more for the education of the readership as a whole than it was for you, but your message served as the trigger.

And all users, of anything, also need to accept the fact that they will not, ever, always get what they want.  Developers have to balance all sorts of competing considerations and because of that you will come up "the loser" many more times than you're likely to come out "the winner."  You can and should ask, but you should never expect that because you've asked, you'll necessarily get.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

I don't recall any discussion of just not having arrow keys being announced and that is my point.  The other objections may have been valid but it is also valid that, as currently implemented, the feature is so verbose as to be virtually unusable.

I would think this change would be a small and easy change and would make the feature much more usable for those who want to use it.  This may be a small group of users but if the change is a small, fast, and easy change, why not make it?  The feature was initially added to NVDA because it was thought to be of some use.  I doubt it is of use to much of anyone because it is so verbose.  I'm suggesting one small change that might make it a lot more useful to those who want to use it.

Gene
On 2/2/2023 10:17 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 11:04 AM, Gene wrote:

I think the response was an example of letting the ideal stop consideration of the good. 

-
And that's where you and I differ, entirely.

I did read that ticket, and it was quite thorough in cost-benefit analysis, at least for how things stood in 2015, which is when it was created and eventually closed.

Things can and sometimes should be revisited, but there was nothing in that ticket that was ideal stopping good.  

In my travels between the blind-tech focused groups I'm a part of, I so often wish that something said recently on one topic on one could be magically teleported to another when, essentially, the exact same issue comes up, even if the originating context is different.  The following is one of the best observations I've seen in years from someone who's been "on both sides now" of the programming game and who also just so happens to be blind:

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 02:02 AM, David Chittenden wrote:

The human tendancy to decide that anything we do not actually know how to do must be easier, simpler, or less complex than it actually is. I suspect this is because, once we actually know how to do something fully, we make it look easy.

My own response to that, in part, was:
Anyone who's ever been in computing knows just how true this is!  Actually, anyone who's ever worked in theater also knows just how true this is, too, but for a different sphere.  Most of what "looks effortless" in the end took herculean effort to get to looking effortless.  How do you get to Carnegie Hall?  Practice, practice, practice.

Your observation is also exactly what Arthur C. Clarke was trying to get at: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." 

It's sweat, and lots and lots of it, that "makes the magic." 
----
When it comes to software there are only so many coders and so many hours in the day.  There also seem to be endless requests for changes and/or bug fixes.  For each and every one of either of those, someone's got to do the cost-benefit analysis based on existing priorities and decide whether the proverbial juice is worth the squeeze.

The Rolling Stones were absolutely correct (and about many, many things in life):  "You can't always get whatcha want.  But if you try, sometimes, you just might find you get whatcha need!" 
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 11:04 AM, Gene wrote:

I think the response was an example of letting the ideal stop consideration of the good. 

-
And that's where you and I differ, entirely.

I did read that ticket, and it was quite thorough in cost-benefit analysis, at least for how things stood in 2015, which is when it was created and eventually closed.

Things can and sometimes should be revisited, but there was nothing in that ticket that was ideal stopping good.  

In my travels between the blind-tech focused groups I'm a part of, I so often wish that something said recently on one topic on one could be magically teleported to another when, essentially, the exact same issue comes up, even if the originating context is different.  The following is one of the best observations I've seen in years from someone who's been "on both sides now" of the programming game and who also just so happens to be blind:

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 02:02 AM, David Chittenden wrote:

The human tendancy to decide that anything we do not actually know how to do must be easier, simpler, or less complex than it actually is. I suspect this is because, once we actually know how to do something fully, we make it look easy.

My own response to that, in part, was:
Anyone who's ever been in computing knows just how true this is!  Actually, anyone who's ever worked in theater also knows just how true this is, too, but for a different sphere.  Most of what "looks effortless" in the end took herculean effort to get to looking effortless.  How do you get to Carnegie Hall?  Practice, practice, practice.

Your observation is also exactly what Arthur C. Clarke was trying to get at: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." 

It's sweat, and lots and lots of it, that "makes the magic." 
----
When it comes to software there are only so many coders and so many hours in the day.  There also seem to be endless requests for changes and/or bug fixes.  For each and every one of either of those, someone's got to do the cost-benefit analysis based on existing priorities and decide whether the proverbial juice is worth the squeeze.

The Rolling Stones were absolutely correct (and about many, many things in life):  "You can't always get whatcha want.  But if you try, sometimes, you just might find you get whatcha need!" 
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 10:42 AM, Gene wrote:

I'd like it to be clarified if the add-on makes a lot of changes by default.  If so, then I thing a sentence such as I am discussing should be included. 

-
This is a serious question, with no snark intended:  Should be included where?

I have no issue, none, with the mention of something like this on this group.  But beyond being some broad, "Word of Warning," it still comes down to the person choosing an add-on, any add-on, to check out what it does.

If you're not talking about being mentioned/included in group discussions, then the "where" is likely in the add-on's documentation.  And we've circled right back to my central premise.  In the end, it is those who chose something that need to evaluate it, whether before or after the choice.  And if they refuse to do so, or act shocked when they get side effects they didn't anticipate, I don't know what you believe can be said that would help, generically, other than a word of warning about extensiveness of changes.

Caveat emptor applies to all sorts of buying.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

I haven't looked at the code for the keys spoken item in NVDA, but it
should be a simple matter to create something that allows
configuration right down to the key level of special keys.

I'd have to look up how to do it, since I've not had to use bit
manipulation in python, but I'd be surprised if it didn't exist.

Each byte has 8 bits.

One bit each for left/right control, left/right shift, and left/right
alt, one for enter, and one for tab would cover the eight bits in a
single byte. Then when one of those keys are pressed, check the
bitmap, see if that one is turned on, if so, speak the key.

You'd of course have to change the GUI to match in the preferences, so
folks could set whether they wanted the keys separated in the first
place, some don't care if it's the left or the right one, but some would.

By doing that also would allow more flexibility when it comes to
hotkeys, since NVDA could check the left/right configuration to see if
it should trigger based on what the user selected in their gesture
selections.

If additional keys are required to be tracked, it's simple enough to
keep adding bytes to the keymap to accommodate the extra keys.

Then, each person could have their configuration setup exactly how
they wished without having to lump multiple keys into a category with
others.

I haven't looked at the code for the keys spoken item in NVDA, but it should be a simple matter to create something that allows configuration right down to the key level of special keys.

I'd have to look up how to do it, since I've not had to use bit manipulation in python, but I'd be surprised if it didn't exist.

Each byte has 8 bits.

One bit each for left/right control, left/right shift, and left/right alt, one for enter, and one for tab would cover the eight bits in a single byte.  Then when one of those keys are pressed, check the bitmap, see if that one is turned on, if so, speak the key.

You'd of course have to change the GUI to match in the preferences, so folks could set whether they wanted the keys separated in the first place, some don't care if it's the left or the right one, but some would.

By doing that also would allow more flexibility when it comes to hotkeys, since NVDA could check the left/right configuration to see if it should trigger based on what the user selected in their gesture selections.

If additional keys are required to be tracked, it's simple enough to keep adding bytes to the keymap to accommodate the extra keys.

Then, each person could have their configuration setup exactly how they wished without having to lump multiple keys into a category with others.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 03:37 AM, Cyrille wrote:

This cannot be standard practice since you have probably installed the add-on addonHelp to be able to see the documentation this way.

-
Cyrille,

You would be correct.  I installed that add-on the moment it came out just as I did for Add-On Updater.  I've had it for so long I just "forget it's there."

Thank you for pointing out the way that should be "standard practice" for those not using that particular add-on.  My central point being that it should be a baseline expectation that individuals using anything will consult its documentation, independently, and make an earnest effort to see if it includes the information they seek.  Gene Asner has pointed out how underused screen reader find is, and this is another place where searching on a word or two that you believe will be closely related to what you're interested in should take you right there.

I am just entirely over the idea that add-on developers, or at least the ones who do create good documentation, should somehow be able to read the minds of every user about every default or other setting they might want.  It is up to those choosing tools to make an earnest attempt to evaluate them and adjust them to their liking, if possible.  If it's not possible, then that tool is really not right for them.

What-if-ism about how any given piece of software might be reconfigured to meet any individual's personal preferences in its "out of the box" state is not particularly productive. And before conversations about, "How do I tweak this?," in anything start, a bit of independent research about that very question should take place, first.  If you come up empty, then ask away.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 09:13 PM, Gene wrote:

But if you follow that logic, you could open new discussions asking that any add-on functionality be added to NVDA even if the same functionality had been discussed in a previous ticket.

-
If that ticket has been closed, that's precisely what I would do.  And I'd include a reference to that other ticket in my new one.

It's up to the project managers whether the old one gets resurrected and integrated with the new one (or vice versa).  A closed ticket is just that - closed.

There are many years-old tickets that remain open, and commenting on those is something I've done because they are open.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881