Some thoughts on moving from Jaws to NVDA
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Hi Ché and all,
I switched from jaws several years ago. My biggest concern at that time was how to use track changes in Microsoft Word. Once nvda resolved that, I was ok and rather like the tree view approach that it has adopted.
What we also need in the documentation is a comparison of functionality like picture smart in jaws is probably equivalent to using the cloud vision add-on. For sharky (assuming I am spelling that correctly), the current best option is talon voice control. Pranav |
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On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 05:46 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
I think we need more than just a table of command differences but also a dictionary of terms/table of concepts.- Great idea and option. Also correctly organized as separate sections. Someone may only choose to create one part of such documentation, but expansion is always an option. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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Hi, I think we need more than just a table of command differences but also a dictionary of terms/table of concepts. A small examle to illustrate (the below content is best viewed from the web interface):
Or a concepts table:
Or something similar to it. You must be familir with screen reader manuals and other documentation to figure some of these out. Cheers, Joseph |
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Gene
It may be that Firefox isn't showing the information or it may be
much farther down the page than I expected. I looked at a good deal
of the page, but I'll look again with Firefox and another browser.
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Gene On 2/3/2023 3:47 PM, hurrikennyandopo
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Gene
There are commands that are different and where such a document
would be useful, for example, setting punctuation on the fly,
changing the synthesizer, that sort of thing. But unless you work
with object navigation and screen review, most of what you do with
any screen-reader will be the same because most of what you work
with are program and Windows commands.
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Some things would require a little discussion to be properly understood. Since NVDA uses the numpad keys for its own purposes, certain NVDA commands are actually the same as JAWS commands, but they use the main keyboard and not the number keys on the numpad. You can use numpad insert because that is an NVDA key and its also a JAWS key in JAWS. Read to end is the same command, NVDA key down arrow, using down arrow on the main keyboard. Because I find this command inconvenient and annoying, I set NVDA to use caps lock as another NVDA key. I execute read to end with numlock down arrow. That might make the transition more pleasant for some or many people.. The add-on Luke created might be useful to mention as something that might be desired once the user has more familiarity with NVDA if they want to go back to numpad insert, numpad 2 for read to end. As I try to think about command differences new users would run into, I can't think of a lot. Perhaps others will think of more but the ones I can think of now are read to end, read current line, change punctuation on the fly, change listening speed and other speech parameters on the fly with the speech ring, I believe its called, and people might like to know about the change progress bar messages command. It would be useful to give some object review commands, not many in a transition document. The commands for read previous, current and next line, word, and character would be useful. The title bar is the same command and it would be a good idea to mention that. It is such a commonly used command that even though it is the same, it should be mentioned. Also, how you change from browse mode to focus mode and back again should be given as the equivalent of the toggle JAWS key z. I use speech, but perhaps there are Braille use commands that should be in the document. At this time, I can't think of more but I think the document should say that most commands will be program and Windows commands and won't change. Gene On 2/3/2023 3:30 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Gene, |
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hurrikennyandopo ...
Hi Gene
The page also points to 2 wicki articles from window eyes and jaws and the other stuff starts below the heading called Comparable hot keys
It shows the basic in the shortcuts for the common things you do.
It has speak title bar what it is in jaws then window eyes then nvda.
But it seems Brian or the other person might of been refereing to something else.
There is no real cheat cheat aprt from downloading the commands for that screen reader or operating system or gestures for phone etc.
But it depends how much info a person wants.
Gene nz
On 04/02/2023 10:28, Gene wrote:
It may be that this page is supposed to contain such a list, but it doesn't. |
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Gene,
Kinda, sorta, but not exactly. By the way, I have referred many a person to your website, and thank you for taking the time to create and maintain it. I was actually thinking of something much more tabular, and much less narrative, and both have their places. From what Ché has been saying, that was the impression I got of what he was proposing, too. It has been my experience that once you have a user who has sophistication with any screen reader, they really don't need much narrative guidance when attempting to learn a second or third. I've noticed the same when it comes to doing things like transitioning from Windows to Mac or vice versa. What's frustrating is that you know exactly how to do it in what you know already, and you want a document in tabular format where the layout is function description, commmand with thing one, command with thing two, etc., with very little else. It's a cheat sheet of sorts. I'd love to see something like this that included columns for JAWS, NVDA, and Narrator, which covers anything in widespread or growing use on the Windows platform. The same would be useful, but a different context, were it created for VoiceOver and TalkBack when it comes to the mobile platforms. What I find most frustrating when jumping between platforms is that what comes as naturally as breathing on my usual platform is something I not only have to think about, but often can't even come up with a logical guess for when on the "alien" platform. It took me ages to finally nail down that right click, Applications/Context Menu Key, or SHIFT + F10 under Windows equates to CMD + Click (for the sighted, anyway) on a Mac. And given how infrequently I actually interact with a Mac, by the next time I do that will probably be gone from my head again. Having that kind of tabular cheet sheet gets me going very quickly. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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Gene
It may be that this page is supposed to contain such a list, but it
doesn't.
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Gene On 2/3/2023 2:34 PM, hurrikennyandopo
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hurrikennyandopo ...
Hi Brian
Do you mean a page like this at http://accessibilitycentral.net/Migrating%20from%20other%20screen%20readers%20to%20the%20NVDA%20screen%20reader.html It shows you the basics of if you came from jaws or window eyes to nvda what that command is.
Gene nz
On 04/02/2023 06:24, Brian Vogel wrote:
Ché, |
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Ché,
You make an excellent point about a JAWS to NVDA command equivalency reference where those differ. The following is said with no snark, and full knowledge of what it entails, as I found myself in precisely this sort of position some years ago when a certain reference document I thought should exist, but didn't, wasn't going to get created by anyone else (or at least not that I could see). I was bound and determined that others should not find themselves in the same situation I was in, and if the "powers that be" [which was a specific automotive owner's club] would neither create or host such a reference, that I was going to do it myself. And I did. This is really something that kinda "creates itself" if you're consistent in hopping into the reference you've started each time you encounter an equivalency you didn't know about and have now discovered. Consider putting this together, piece by piece, during your own personal journey into NVDA from JAWS, and then web-publishing it after it's complete. If you have nowhere to put it on the web, I'd be happy to host it for you on my Google Drive, as I'm currently doing not only for all my tutorial materials and references but those created by certain others who've asked me to. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit It is much easier to be critical than to be correct. ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881 |
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Che Martin <blindadrenaline@...>
Hi all, I’ve been waiting to respond to several emails until I had explored the various subjects and advice given, as to not spam the list with a bunch of emails. Thanks to Richard Wells for letting me know about the numpadNav add on, this one helped a lot with the transition. Thanks to Luke for providing this critical add on and letting me know about it as well. Quentin gave a link to the gitHub document that helps tremendously with the switch from Jaws. I can see why the devs wouldn’t want to link to a document like this, but man, this is a must have for people trying to make the move, and I wish it had been in the NVDA docs. In fact, I wish it had come up with a big fat window when I first installed NVDA with a title that said “Hey, if you are coming from Jaws, read this first.” Richard also pointed me to some important add ons, such as the virtualizer that helps a lot. Brian and Gene gave me some great advice and pointers, thanks for that yawl. Ok, sorry if this sounds like an Oscars acceptance speech, but I want all to know I appreciate the time taken to help a newbie out here, and I plan on paying it forward. One way I am going to be doing that is letting my players on my audio game site know that NVDA simply works better with the games. It has far less lag, and just feels much more crisp, some thing I’ve noticed for a while in Reaper when working with large projects. I am going to be telling them about the gitHub page, the numPadNav add on, and the way to get the control f find functionality back quickly, as well as how to use boost mode to quickly have two speeds when needing to down shift when reading more intense matter. I think it would be amazing and helpful for the cause of NVDA to have a single resource for folks coming from Jaws to get them going as painlessly as possible. Perhaps a web page with these and other suggested add ons on top of the info in the gitHub page, and a FAQ. Because I can tell you, the main reason I haven’t fully switched from Jaws earlier is due to ignorance about how to make the change much easier. I’ve spoken to many NVDA users over the past several years that were telling me about the virtues of NVDA, but I ran into frustrations of various sorts each time I gave it a shot. If someone had pointed me to a page that started with: How to replace Jaws with NVDA: a guide to get you up and going quickly and easily, I would have been an NVDA user long ago. Obviously, had I worked harder on learning the differences, I would have figured it out years ago, but most people are going to do what I did, which is to install NVDA, get frustrated with the amount of time it is taking to learn the differences, and go back to the tried and true, despite the shortcomings and expense inherent with Jaws. Anyway, perhaps some food for thought. If I have failed to thank someone here for helping out, my deepest apologies, the whole community here is great, and you guys are doing a fantastic job helping with this important open source project. If anyone would like to email me off list, feel free, address is:
Have a peaceful one, Ché
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2023 5:13 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Moving from Jaws to NVDA: A list of differences in commands
There is a page on switching from Jaws to NVDA at: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda-community/wiki/SwitchingFromJawsToNVDA
I am not sure what may or may not be missing from it, but if anyone knows of anything not covered there, please do let me know so I can update it.
For the original poster - NVDA has a quick navigation key of "n" to jump to the next non-linked text, that is the next text which isn't a link, that may do what you need.
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 7:00 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
-- Quentin Christensen
Web: www.nvaccess.org Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess |
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