Hey all,

, In the spirit of paying it forward, along with offering a solution when pointing out problems, I have started a very rough version of a web page aimed specifically at users wanting to switch from Jaws to NVDA.

As I’ve mentioned on list before, I would have switched years ago if I had a central resource to help with the transition, and I think there are many more like myself out there.

This is just an outline really to get an idea of what is needed and possibly start a conversation about moving forward with the page. For instance, I think it needs a section on most popular add ons.

 

It is hosted on my website:

https://blindadrenaline.com/instructions/Jaws%20to%20NVDA%20Guide.htm

 

Let me know what ya think.

Ché

 

 

On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 03:50 PM, Gene wrote:

For someone unfamiliar with NVDA, this sort of detail should be included, for example, NVDA key n opens preferences.  Press enter and then enter again to open settings. 

-
I agree with you about the details, so I'll split a hair here (maybe several).  I like both the JAWS and NVDA convention of using SCRRDR + Letter, where if there are multiple steps afterward those get indicated by comma separation, e.g., SCRRDR + N, H, Q.

I'm also getting "big" on not describing things as any set number of down or up arrows, as menus can change, and when there is a letter shortcut, for anything, I use it.  If a shortcut letter is duplicated, e.g. the NVDA Help Menu, where A is used as the shortcut letter for both "Manage Add Ons" and further down for "Check for add-on updates,"  I always include the fact that Enter is the last keypress.  So Manage Add Ons is NVDA + N, T, A, Enter and Check for add-on updates is NVDA + N, T, A, A, Enter.  I make a general note at the outset about menus that if you prefer to up/down arrow to find something, have at it after the minimum number of keystrokes have been entered to get you to the particular menu under discusson, so for the NVDA Tools Menu that would be NVDA + N, T.

Here's the hair splitting, NVDA + N opens the NVDA Main Menu, and that's it.  If you want to get into Preferences proper, you need to hit the P shortcut key or down arrow until you hear preferences and hit enter.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Ché,

To add to what Gene mentioned about Find, I think it's important to note that JAWS "supplants" its own screen reader find for most application native finds, which I personally hate, since there are times I prefer to use native application finds versus the screen reader find.  CTRL + F, when using any screen reader I've dealt with so far other than JAWS generally (though there are exceptions) invokes the native application's find regardless of the application you're using.  F3 is the native find next and SHIFT + F3 the native find previous.

NVDA is much more consistent and, I feel, "transparent' in that if you don't invoke a screen reader find, which requires NVDA + CTRL + F, you generally get the native application find.

I do know there are exceptions, in both JAWS and NVDA, where their respective general patterns do not hold.  I also firmly believe in either the generic terminology, "screen reader find," or the specific, "JAWS find," or "NVDA Find," when it's the screen reader find that is being invoked.  Many people can and do use native find and that is almost universally what's invoked by a naked CTRL + F other than when using JAWS.

As you keep making substantive additions or changes, please post asking for review.  But substantive is not "one more command" but after enough to be worth the next review has been added.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit 

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 04:57 PM, Gene wrote:

As far as short cut keys are concerned, I think it is good to tell new users about them when teaching Windows, in other words why they hear what they hear when they move through menus and dialogs.  But I think that actual short cut keys should not be given much when teaching a new Windows user. 

-
We're in absolute agreement here, but we're not talking about that as the target demographic in this specific case for the specific documentation being created.

I would be looking for something in a tabular format with command description, followed by columns with the specific, full keystroke sequence for each of the respective screen readers that might be included.  The intent is not to teach basic use, but to create a cross reference that a skilled user of any one can find the slight differences in the corresponding others if they're trying to transition to them.  For the purposes of this reference, I am presuming a very skilled screen reader user for one of them trying to learn the eccentricities of another.  They know Windows and their preferred screen reader like the back of their hands for things they do routinely.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Hi,

Some review comments and to respond to subsequent posts:

This is a good start. Although there is already a page describing switching from JAWS to NVDA (in a wiki form hosted on GitHub somewhere), at least the linked page might be useful for some audiences.

As for a subsequent comment on shortcut keys: regarding teaching shortcut keys, for this project, what's more important is giving screen reader specific commands for accomplishing similar tasks. As such, I personally view the target audience being a proficient JAWS user or an accessibility tester wishing to either transition to a new screen reader or acquaint oneself with a second screen reader (user level: intermediate). At a minimum, the following should be included:

• Basic overview of JAWS and NVDA so people can get a high-level overview of screen reader differences.
• Feature comparison and command summary table so people can learn equivalencies between JAWS and NVDA.
• Information for contacting the maker and/or user forums should people have additional questions.

Do not spend too much on intros as the audience you are targeting may have some knowledge about what a screen reader is. Give people concise information in either a short summary or a tabular form so people can obtain information quickly. The balancing act between breadth and depth of information is one of the first steps in effective technical (and sometimes strategic) communication (some colleges do offer a major or an option in technical writing/communication; I wish I took tech writing courses from the perspective of humanities but learning it from the engineering side did provide the basics of this trade).

Good luck.

Cheers,

Joseph

Ché,

To add to what Gene mentioned about Find, I think it's important to note that JAWS "supplants" its own screen reader find for most application native finds, which I personally hate, since there are times I prefer to use native application finds versus the screen reader find.  CTRL + F, when using any screen reader I've dealt with so far other than JAWS generally (though there are exceptions) invokes the native application's find regardless of the application you're using.  F3 is the native find next and SHIFT + F3 the native find previous.

NVDA is much more consistent and, I feel, "transparent' in that if you don't invoke a screen reader find, which requires NVDA + CTRL + F, you generally get the native application find.

I do know there are exceptions, in both JAWS and NVDA, where their respective general patterns do not hold.  I also firmly believe in either the generic terminology, "screen reader find," or the specific, "JAWS find," or "NVDA Find," when it's the screen reader find that is being invoked.  Many people can and do use native find and that is almost universally what's invoked by a naked CTRL + F other than when using JAWS.

As you keep making substantive additions or changes, please post asking for review.  But substantive is not "one more command" but after enough to be worth the next review has been added.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit 

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

My comments aren't based on whether someone is reasonably competent or more.  I assume a reasonably competent user. 

The previous discussion raises the question, should the NVDA menu be discussed, how and to what extent.  Commands like changing speech settings don't require using the JAWS menu.  You can use commands like control, NVDA, s to open the synthesizer dialog and control, NVDA, v to open the dialog where you change rate, pitch, etc.  Changing punctuation is NVDA p, and there is the speech ring, though I don't know if that is the proper name.
Dialogs such as document formatting can be opened with control NVDA d. 

I still think it would be a good idea to have a brief discussion, discussing how you work with the NVDA menu so people can look around. 

But given your description, Joseph, I think it raises the question of, aside from that, whether the menu should or needs to be used or discussed at all in the guide. 

Gene

On 2/4/2023 4:27 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Some review comments and to respond to subsequent posts:

This is a good start. Although there is already a page describing switching from JAWS to NVDA (in a wiki form hosted on GitHub somewhere), at least the linked page might be useful for some audiences.

As for a subsequent comment on shortcut keys: regarding teaching shortcut keys, for this project, what's more important is giving screen reader specific commands for accomplishing similar tasks. As such, I personally view the target audience being a proficient JAWS user or an accessibility tester wishing to either transition to a new screen reader or acquaint oneself with a second screen reader (user level: intermediate). At a minimum, the following should be included:

• Basic overview of JAWS and NVDA so people can get a high-level overview of screen reader differences.
• Feature comparison and command summary table so people can learn equivalencies between JAWS and NVDA.
• Information for contacting the maker and/or user forums should people have additional questions.

Do not spend too much on intros as the audience you are targeting may have some knowledge about what a screen reader is. Give people concise information in either a short summary or a tabular form so people can obtain information quickly. The balancing act between breadth and depth of information is one of the first steps in effective technical (and sometimes strategic) communication (some colleges do offer a major or an option in technical writing/communication; I wish I took tech writing courses from the perspective of humanities but learning it from the engineering side did provide the basics of this trade).

Good luck.

Cheers,

Joseph

Hi,

At least the menus and user interfaces should be compared, nothing more, nothing less. Details about JAWS selecting the first menu automatically whereas NVDA not doing it distracts both the writer and reader. Writer because they need to think about topic relevance, word usage, and content real estate, and the reader because it takes valuable time away from getting to the main objective of the document. In other words, for this particular document, holding hands does more harm than good (I nkow, this is not an easy statement to digest, but context analysis is a key ingredient of an effective audience analysis).

Cheers,

Joseph

Hi,

At least the menus and user interfaces should be compared, nothing more, nothing less. Details about JAWS selecting the first menu automatically whereas NVDA not doing it distracts both the writer and reader. Writer because they need to think about topic relevance, word usage, and content real estate, and the reader because it takes valuable time away from getting to the main objective of the document. In other words, for this particular document, holding hands does more harm than good (I nkow, this is not an easy statement to digest, but context analysis is a key ingredient of an effective audience analysis).

Cheers,

Joseph

Hey guys,

Yeah, that was scratched together just as an outline like I said, more to discuss what should be included, not really looking for fine details on each element,.

I can see from these first emails however, that there is going to be a lot of hair splitting and back and forth about how to present this information, so I’m gonna have to give some thought to how much time and aggrivation I’m willing to spend on this, as I’ve got too many pokers in the fire as it is.

I think I may just do a broad stroke document to help get users like my customers headed down the right path, and let them look up the details themselves later on, as there is plenty of documentation already out there on how to navigate once the ball is rolling.

once they get a few basics down.

Stay well,

Ché

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2023 3:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A guide in progress for transitioning from Jaws to NVDA

 

Ché,

To add to what Gene mentioned about Find, I think it's important to note that JAWS "supplants" its own screen reader find for most application native finds, which I personally hate, since there are times I prefer to use native application finds versus the screen reader find.  CTRL + F, when using any screen reader I've dealt with so far other than JAWS generally (though there are exceptions) invokes the native application's find regardless of the application you're using.  F3 is the native find next and SHIFT + F3 the native find previous.

NVDA is much more consistent and, I feel, "transparent' in that if you don't invoke a screen reader find, which requires NVDA + CTRL + F, you generally get the native application find.

I do know there are exceptions, in both JAWS and NVDA, where their respective general patterns do not hold.  I also firmly believe in either the generic terminology, "screen reader find," or the specific, "JAWS find," or "NVDA Find," when it's the screen reader find that is being invoked.  Many people can and do use native find and that is almost universally what's invoked by a naked CTRL + F other than when using JAWS.

As you keep making substantive additions or changes, please post asking for review.  But substantive is not "one more command" but after enough to be worth the next review has been added.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit 

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

There may not be nearly as much discussion as you continue.  Some of the discussion was about how to discuss menus and I think that discussion is about over.  Plus, you don't have to be the only person working on this.  If you want, you can prepare something and send it to the list for comment.  If you don't want to take the time to revise the document, you can ask that another person or perhaps a group of two or three people discuss and revise it.

It is my opinion that the document doesn't have to be too long or contain more than perhaps fifteen commands and discussion of the speech ring and as I discussed in my last message, a few sentences about the menu and context sensitive help. 

That doesn't mean I haven't neglected to mention something, but I think that is mostly it. 

Gene

On 2/4/2023 5:05 PM, Che Martin wrote:

Hey guys,

Yeah, that was scratched together just as an outline like I said, more to discuss what should be included, not really looking for fine details on each element,.

I can see from these first emails however, that there is going to be a lot of hair splitting and back and forth about how to present this information, so I’m gonna have to give some thought to how much time and aggrivation I’m willing to spend on this, as I’ve got too many pokers in the fire as it is.

I think I may just do a broad stroke document to help get users like my customers headed down the right path, and let them look up the details themselves later on, as there is plenty of documentation already out there on how to navigate once the ball is rolling.

once they get a few basics down.

Stay well,

Ché

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2023 3:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A guide in progress for transitioning from Jaws to NVDA

 

Ché,

To add to what Gene mentioned about Find, I think it's important to note that JAWS "supplants" its own screen reader find for most application native finds, which I personally hate, since there are times I prefer to use native application finds versus the screen reader find.  CTRL + F, when using any screen reader I've dealt with so far other than JAWS generally (though there are exceptions) invokes the native application's find regardless of the application you're using.  F3 is the native find next and SHIFT + F3 the native find previous.

NVDA is much more consistent and, I feel, "transparent' in that if you don't invoke a screen reader find, which requires NVDA + CTRL + F, you generally get the native application find.

I do know there are exceptions, in both JAWS and NVDA, where their respective general patterns do not hold.  I also firmly believe in either the generic terminology, "screen reader find," or the specific, "JAWS find," or "NVDA Find," when it's the screen reader find that is being invoked.  Many people can and do use native find and that is almost universally what's invoked by a naked CTRL + F other than when using JAWS.

As you keep making substantive additions or changes, please post asking for review.  But substantive is not "one more command" but after enough to be worth the next review has been added.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit 

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881