Others may have comments on what I've written and may want to change it in various ways.

This is my idea, of what the kind of guide we are discussing should be like.  I think that discussion and commands is better than just a list of commands.  The titles between sections could be turned into headings in the document as it is developed.

This proposed document may save Che some work and may be useful in considering how such a document might be written.

The document is not complete.  I would add a little information about a few other things such as help and the quick commands reference guide and perhaps this list.  But this is my idea of how most of such a document might be written.

I haven't discussed laptop layout nor given such commands and others may wish to discuss whether that should be done.

The draft is below my signature.

Gene

When using NVDA or any other screen-reader than JAWS, a lot of what you will do will be the same because a lot or most of what you do will be working with program and Windows commands and they, of course, remain the same.

This guide will give commands you will very likely want to use immediately.  It will discuss similarities and differences of commands.
It will also tell you how to get context sensitive help and discuss the NVDA menu briefly.

Speech settings.
To open the speech setting dialog, use the command control, NVDA key, v.
You are on a field that announces the synthesizer you are using.
Tab once to a change button, press the space bar, and choose a different one if you wish.
Change it in the combo box and press enter.
You are now back in the dialog you were in before.
Continue to tab around to adjust rate, punctuation, and other settings.
Activate the OK button when finished.
You can change punctuation levels on the fly with the command NVDA key, p.  It cycles through the levels.

Document formatting
To change what NVDA announces about documents, open the document formatting dialog with control, NVDA, d.
Tab around the dialog and see the large number of changes you can make.
If you want information about a setting, press f1.  The user manual will open in your default browser where the setting is discussed. This is similar to context sensitive help.
Close the browser as usual and you will be back in the dialog.

Browse mode settings
Browse mode is what NVDA calls the Virtual PC cursor.  It is another name for the same thing.
Quick navigation commands are almost identical.
Find is NVDA key, f.
To manually turn off browse mode, use NVDA key, space.  To manually turn it on, use the same command, its a toggle.
The command is equivalent to  JAWS key z.
If you want verbal notification about which mode you have switched to instead of a sound, you can change this in browse mode settings.
To display all links on their own lines, as JAWS does by default, uncheck the use screen layout, when supported check box in browse mode settings.

To change browse mode settings, open the dialog with control NVDA b.
Using Context sensative help can be done in all settings dialogs, as explained above.

Browse mode in office.
You can turn browse mode on and off in Office programs.  The same browse mode toggle command is used as in a browser, NVDA key, space.

Read to end
The read to end command in NVDA is NVDA key down arrow.  Use down arrow on the main keyboard, not numpad 2.
Read current line
Read current line is NVDA key, up arrow, using up arrow on the main keyboard.
Press the command twice quickly to have the line spelled, three times quickly to have it spelled phonetically.
Other review commands
These commands move what is called the object navigator and not the application cursor.
Current line, numpad 8.
Previous line, numpad 7.
Next line, numpad 9.
The same pattern holds for other commands in this discussion.
Current word, numpad 5.
Previous word, numpad 4.
Next wordd, numpad 6.
Current character, numpad 2.
Previous carachter, numpad 1.
Next carachter numpad 3.
Pressing the read current keys two and three times quickly will do the same things as doing so using read current commands in JAWS.

The system tray
NVDA has no system tray dialog.
To use the system tray, do the following.  These are Windows commands.
Windows key b moves you to the system tray.
Move with the left and right arrow keys or first letter navigation to the icon you want.
Use the following commands on ic
Double left click, enter.
Single left click, space.
Single right click, context menu key or shift f10.
The following three commands remain the same.
NVDA f12 announces the time.  Pressing twice announces the date.
NVDA t announces the title bar.
Pressing twice spells what is there.
Pressing three times copies the text to the clipboard.
NVDA does more with the command than JAWS, which only announces the title bar.
You can use input help in NVDA.  The toggle is the same, NVDA key, f1.

There may not be nearly as much discussion as you continue.  Some of the discussion was about how to discuss menus and I think that discussion is about over.  Plus, you don't have to be the only person working on this.  If you want, you can prepare something and send it to the list for comment.  If you don't want to take the time to revise the document, you can ask that another person or perhaps a group of two or three people discuss and revise it.

It is my opinion that the document doesn't have to be too long or contain more than perhaps fifteen commands and discussion of the speech ring and as I discussed in my last message, a few sentences about the menu and context sensitive help. 

That doesn't mean I haven't neglected to mention something, but I think that is mostly it. 

Gene

On 2/4/2023 5:05 PM, Che Martin wrote:

Hey guys,

Yeah, that was scratched together just as an outline like I said, more to discuss what should be included, not really looking for fine details on each element,.

I can see from these first emails however, that there is going to be a lot of hair splitting and back and forth about how to present this information, so I’m gonna have to give some thought to how much time and aggrivation I’m willing to spend on this, as I’ve got too many pokers in the fire as it is.

I think I may just do a broad stroke document to help get users like my customers headed down the right path, and let them look up the details themselves later on, as there is plenty of documentation already out there on how to navigate once the ball is rolling.

once they get a few basics down.

Stay well,

Ché

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2023 3:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A guide in progress for transitioning from Jaws to NVDA

 

Ché,

To add to what Gene mentioned about Find, I think it's important to note that JAWS "supplants" its own screen reader find for most application native finds, which I personally hate, since there are times I prefer to use native application finds versus the screen reader find.  CTRL + F, when using any screen reader I've dealt with so far other than JAWS generally (though there are exceptions) invokes the native application's find regardless of the application you're using.  F3 is the native find next and SHIFT + F3 the native find previous.

NVDA is much more consistent and, I feel, "transparent' in that if you don't invoke a screen reader find, which requires NVDA + CTRL + F, you generally get the native application find.

I do know there are exceptions, in both JAWS and NVDA, where their respective general patterns do not hold.  I also firmly believe in either the generic terminology, "screen reader find," or the specific, "JAWS find," or "NVDA Find," when it's the screen reader find that is being invoked.  Many people can and do use native find and that is almost universally what's invoked by a naked CTRL + F other than when using JAWS.

As you keep making substantive additions or changes, please post asking for review.  But substantive is not "one more command" but after enough to be worth the next review has been added.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit 

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Hey guys,

Yeah, that was scratched together just as an outline like I said, more to discuss what should be included, not really looking for fine details on each element,.

I can see from these first emails however, that there is going to be a lot of hair splitting and back and forth about how to present this information, so I’m gonna have to give some thought to how much time and aggrivation I’m willing to spend on this, as I’ve got too many pokers in the fire as it is.

I think I may just do a broad stroke document to help get users like my customers headed down the right path, and let them look up the details themselves later on, as there is plenty of documentation already out there on how to navigate once the ball is rolling.

once they get a few basics down.

Stay well,

Ché

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2023 3:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A guide in progress for transitioning from Jaws to NVDA

 

Ché,

To add to what Gene mentioned about Find, I think it's important to note that JAWS "supplants" its own screen reader find for most application native finds, which I personally hate, since there are times I prefer to use native application finds versus the screen reader find.  CTRL + F, when using any screen reader I've dealt with so far other than JAWS generally (though there are exceptions) invokes the native application's find regardless of the application you're using.  F3 is the native find next and SHIFT + F3 the native find previous.

NVDA is much more consistent and, I feel, "transparent' in that if you don't invoke a screen reader find, which requires NVDA + CTRL + F, you generally get the native application find.

I do know there are exceptions, in both JAWS and NVDA, where their respective general patterns do not hold.  I also firmly believe in either the generic terminology, "screen reader find," or the specific, "JAWS find," or "NVDA Find," when it's the screen reader find that is being invoked.  Many people can and do use native find and that is almost universally what's invoked by a naked CTRL + F other than when using JAWS.

As you keep making substantive additions or changes, please post asking for review.  But substantive is not "one more command" but after enough to be worth the next review has been added.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit 

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Hi,

At least the menus and user interfaces should be compared, nothing more, nothing less. Details about JAWS selecting the first menu automatically whereas NVDA not doing it distracts both the writer and reader. Writer because they need to think about topic relevance, word usage, and content real estate, and the reader because it takes valuable time away from getting to the main objective of the document. In other words, for this particular document, holding hands does more harm than good (I nkow, this is not an easy statement to digest, but context analysis is a key ingredient of an effective audience analysis).

Cheers,

Joseph

Hi,

At least the menus and user interfaces should be compared, nothing more, nothing less. Details about JAWS selecting the first menu automatically whereas NVDA not doing it distracts both the writer and reader. Writer because they need to think about topic relevance, word usage, and content real estate, and the reader because it takes valuable time away from getting to the main objective of the document. In other words, for this particular document, holding hands does more harm than good (I nkow, this is not an easy statement to digest, but context analysis is a key ingredient of an effective audience analysis).

Cheers,

Joseph

My comments aren't based on whether someone is reasonably competent or more.  I assume a reasonably competent user. 

The previous discussion raises the question, should the NVDA menu be discussed, how and to what extent.  Commands like changing speech settings don't require using the JAWS menu.  You can use commands like control, NVDA, s to open the synthesizer dialog and control, NVDA, v to open the dialog where you change rate, pitch, etc.  Changing punctuation is NVDA p, and there is the speech ring, though I don't know if that is the proper name.
Dialogs such as document formatting can be opened with control NVDA d. 

I still think it would be a good idea to have a brief discussion, discussing how you work with the NVDA menu so people can look around. 

But given your description, Joseph, I think it raises the question of, aside from that, whether the menu should or needs to be used or discussed at all in the guide. 

Gene

On 2/4/2023 4:27 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Some review comments and to respond to subsequent posts:

This is a good start. Although there is already a page describing switching from JAWS to NVDA (in a wiki form hosted on GitHub somewhere), at least the linked page might be useful for some audiences.

As for a subsequent comment on shortcut keys: regarding teaching shortcut keys, for this project, what's more important is giving screen reader specific commands for accomplishing similar tasks. As such, I personally view the target audience being a proficient JAWS user or an accessibility tester wishing to either transition to a new screen reader or acquaint oneself with a second screen reader (user level: intermediate). At a minimum, the following should be included:

• Basic overview of JAWS and NVDA so people can get a high-level overview of screen reader differences.
• Feature comparison and command summary table so people can learn equivalencies between JAWS and NVDA.
• Information for contacting the maker and/or user forums should people have additional questions.

Do not spend too much on intros as the audience you are targeting may have some knowledge about what a screen reader is. Give people concise information in either a short summary or a tabular form so people can obtain information quickly. The balancing act between breadth and depth of information is one of the first steps in effective technical (and sometimes strategic) communication (some colleges do offer a major or an option in technical writing/communication; I wish I took tech writing courses from the perspective of humanities but learning it from the engineering side did provide the basics of this trade).

Good luck.

Cheers,

Joseph

Ché,

To add to what Gene mentioned about Find, I think it's important to note that JAWS "supplants" its own screen reader find for most application native finds, which I personally hate, since there are times I prefer to use native application finds versus the screen reader find.  CTRL + F, when using any screen reader I've dealt with so far other than JAWS generally (though there are exceptions) invokes the native application's find regardless of the application you're using.  F3 is the native find next and SHIFT + F3 the native find previous.

NVDA is much more consistent and, I feel, "transparent' in that if you don't invoke a screen reader find, which requires NVDA + CTRL + F, you generally get the native application find.

I do know there are exceptions, in both JAWS and NVDA, where their respective general patterns do not hold.  I also firmly believe in either the generic terminology, "screen reader find," or the specific, "JAWS find," or "NVDA Find," when it's the screen reader find that is being invoked.  Many people can and do use native find and that is almost universally what's invoked by a naked CTRL + F other than when using JAWS.

As you keep making substantive additions or changes, please post asking for review.  But substantive is not "one more command" but after enough to be worth the next review has been added.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit 

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Hi,

Some review comments and to respond to subsequent posts:

This is a good start. Although there is already a page describing switching from JAWS to NVDA (in a wiki form hosted on GitHub somewhere), at least the linked page might be useful for some audiences.

As for a subsequent comment on shortcut keys: regarding teaching shortcut keys, for this project, what's more important is giving screen reader specific commands for accomplishing similar tasks. As such, I personally view the target audience being a proficient JAWS user or an accessibility tester wishing to either transition to a new screen reader or acquaint oneself with a second screen reader (user level: intermediate). At a minimum, the following should be included:

• Basic overview of JAWS and NVDA so people can get a high-level overview of screen reader differences.
• Feature comparison and command summary table so people can learn equivalencies between JAWS and NVDA.
• Information for contacting the maker and/or user forums should people have additional questions.

Do not spend too much on intros as the audience you are targeting may have some knowledge about what a screen reader is. Give people concise information in either a short summary or a tabular form so people can obtain information quickly. The balancing act between breadth and depth of information is one of the first steps in effective technical (and sometimes strategic) communication (some colleges do offer a major or an option in technical writing/communication; I wish I took tech writing courses from the perspective of humanities but learning it from the engineering side did provide the basics of this trade).

Good luck.

Cheers,

Joseph

On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 04:57 PM, Gene wrote:

As far as short cut keys are concerned, I think it is good to tell new users about them when teaching Windows, in other words why they hear what they hear when they move through menus and dialogs.  But I think that actual short cut keys should not be given much when teaching a new Windows user. 

-
We're in absolute agreement here, but we're not talking about that as the target demographic in this specific case for the specific documentation being created.

I would be looking for something in a tabular format with command description, followed by columns with the specific, full keystroke sequence for each of the respective screen readers that might be included.  The intent is not to teach basic use, but to create a cross reference that a skilled user of any one can find the slight differences in the corresponding others if they're trying to transition to them.  For the purposes of this reference, I am presuming a very skilled screen reader user for one of them trying to learn the eccentricities of another.  They know Windows and their preferred screen reader like the back of their hands for things they do routinely.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Ché,

To add to what Gene mentioned about Find, I think it's important to note that JAWS "supplants" its own screen reader find for most application native finds, which I personally hate, since there are times I prefer to use native application finds versus the screen reader find.  CTRL + F, when using any screen reader I've dealt with so far other than JAWS generally (though there are exceptions) invokes the native application's find regardless of the application you're using.  F3 is the native find next and SHIFT + F3 the native find previous.

NVDA is much more consistent and, I feel, "transparent' in that if you don't invoke a screen reader find, which requires NVDA + CTRL + F, you generally get the native application find.

I do know there are exceptions, in both JAWS and NVDA, where their respective general patterns do not hold.  I also firmly believe in either the generic terminology, "screen reader find," or the specific, "JAWS find," or "NVDA Find," when it's the screen reader find that is being invoked.  Many people can and do use native find and that is almost universally what's invoked by a naked CTRL + F other than when using JAWS.

As you keep making substantive additions or changes, please post asking for review.  But substantive is not "one more command" but after enough to be worth the next review has been added.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit 

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 03:50 PM, Gene wrote:

For someone unfamiliar with NVDA, this sort of detail should be included, for example, NVDA key n opens preferences.  Press enter and then enter again to open settings. 

-
I agree with you about the details, so I'll split a hair here (maybe several).  I like both the JAWS and NVDA convention of using SCRRDR + Letter, where if there are multiple steps afterward those get indicated by comma separation, e.g., SCRRDR + N, H, Q.

I'm also getting "big" on not describing things as any set number of down or up arrows, as menus can change, and when there is a letter shortcut, for anything, I use it.  If a shortcut letter is duplicated, e.g. the NVDA Help Menu, where A is used as the shortcut letter for both "Manage Add Ons" and further down for "Check for add-on updates,"  I always include the fact that Enter is the last keypress.  So Manage Add Ons is NVDA + N, T, A, Enter and Check for add-on updates is NVDA + N, T, A, A, Enter.  I make a general note at the outset about menus that if you prefer to up/down arrow to find something, have at it after the minimum number of keystrokes have been entered to get you to the particular menu under discusson, so for the NVDA Tools Menu that would be NVDA + N, T.

Here's the hair splitting, NVDA + N opens the NVDA Main Menu, and that's it.  If you want to get into Preferences proper, you need to hit the P shortcut key or down arrow until you hear preferences and hit enter.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881