|
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the
reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple
email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features
that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the
best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that
does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all
don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it.
With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't
need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what
we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice
and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the
issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been
convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using
it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change
fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish
people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is
their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp
if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not
ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith
wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I
got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me
how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start
button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating
doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew
what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who
insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the
times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and
thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has
the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions
of Windows. The number of things that require manual
intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later
versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it
comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as
the differences, but the differences are where people are
required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments
regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really
resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was
in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology
was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age
cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I
could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change
has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority
of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years
old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar
themes rather than complete divergences from what came
before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and
my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I
have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of
the internet.
Brian
|
|
|
I had to change to win 7. My first xp box couldn’t barely handle jaws 11. When I got onto IE it lagged and would not get on. it took me 4 to 5 tries to get on. I was going to audio chat rooms. I could barely get into them with my first xp box lagging. So I donated it to a sighted person for her schooling. It died ten years later. Then I ended up with my room mate’s xp box. Then I got this 7 box. Just after I got this box. The old computer my room mate had died.
From: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Sent: April-18-16 7:14 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change? I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote: Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote: Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with." And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new. David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet. Brian
|
|
|
Well winamp aint dead as such its just takinng for ever to get released.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 19/04/2016 2:14 p.m., n8mnx@... wrote: I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake
of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work
and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new
programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I
was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not
know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course
upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with
it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use
thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express
isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like
calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express
will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other
programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just
adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't
like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we
don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or
what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of
choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is
the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been
convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't
have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so
is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to
take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to
find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button,
much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the
upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was
getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted
on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it
was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user
in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7
forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions
of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as
strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are
required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near
it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and
was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at
her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go
through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they
were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the
cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very
familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came
before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents
experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my
only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer
and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
|
|
|
Hi I use OutLook, Win 10 and office 2010, on my work computer. To me OutLook is perfect, but that is the program I learnt everything concerning email on. I always say that making choices regarding computer programs is much like buying a car. The only question is “what do you prefer, like, or what works for you”. Cheers
From: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 4:14 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change? I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote: Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote: Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with." And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new. David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet. Brian
|
|
|
there against change because they can't see it
coming!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:58
AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so
many blind people are so against change?
Hi
I
use OutLook, Win 10 and office 2010, on my work computer. To me OutLook is
perfect, but that is the program I learnt everything concerning email
on.
I
always say that making choices regarding computer programs is much like buying
a car. The only question is “what do you prefer, like, or what works for
you”.
Cheers
From: n8mnx@...
[mailto:n8mnx@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 4:14
AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] why does seem that
so many blind people are so against change?
I think that
maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the
fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the
new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like
windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to
windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work
and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail
and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have
windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we
all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells
and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use.
Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to
other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just
adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't
like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we
don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we
can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and
they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp
it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a
better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we
need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our
choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use
horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still
use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not
ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith
wrote:
Change is hard, but we must
adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have
adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the
search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been
saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I
just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing
it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted
on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and
his answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're
used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying
habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The
number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is
huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of
Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as
the differences, but the differences are where people are required to
learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth
and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am
amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were.
While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber
world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54
years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes
rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not
true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more
revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two
revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the
ascendance of the internet.
Brian
|
|
|
Katty Geltmeyer <kattygeltmeyer@...>
For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes. In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup. Best, Katty
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change? I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote: Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote: Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with." And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new. David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet. Brian
|
|
|
So true. Shall we call it “lack of insight?” LOL
From: Isaac [mailto:bigikemusic@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 9:11 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change? there against change because they can't see it coming! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:58 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change? Hi I use OutLook, Win 10 and office 2010, on my work computer. To me OutLook is perfect, but that is the program I learnt everything concerning email on. I always say that making choices regarding computer programs is much like buying a car. The only question is “what do you prefer, like, or what works for you”. Cheers I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote: Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote: Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with." And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new. David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet. Brian
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
My thoughts entirely, and its not the fact that the new way is better, its often not or indeed worse for us as the debugging of access has not been done properly, scripts inside screenreaders no long er work and need to be rewritten etc. It is not rocket science and of cours would if tackled at the start of development of a change pose no real costs to the developer, so we sit back and wonder at the stupidity of the vendors providers etc when we consider these things.
The answer is education of people that to use the current buzz word, they have to be inclusive and consider all. Its like the buildings with loads of wheelchair ramps but no staff who can help the blind find places.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "Katty Geltmeyer" <kattygeltmeyer@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.
In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.
Best, Katty
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
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Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind. I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary. I am not perfect, but only God is. I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice must be respected. I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to change. Ciao Angela from Italy Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake
of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work
and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new
programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I
was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not
know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course
upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with
it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use
thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express
isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like
calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express
will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other
programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just
adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't
like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we
don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or
what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of
choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is
the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been
convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't
have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so
is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to
take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to
find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much
frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to
Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into
before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on
staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying
habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number
of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge
compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when
it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the
similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn
something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth
and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am
amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the
pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the
majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old)
feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather
than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for
my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary
changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
--- Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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That is true in some cases but in many, that is a
real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the
structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as
ribbons.
Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is
desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For
example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file
download. There might have been a link that says download, for
example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using
the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and
doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable
difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does
not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the
page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word
download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you
can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move
to it.
If a program changes its structure, such as
by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look
through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform
certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu
program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so
any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be
just an inconvenience.
I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as
when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release.
But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind
people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain
actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured
and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as
looking through menus or ribbons.
Some blind people will find such ways of
conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in
between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult
or in between for them, they never get to find out.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?
For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the
following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find
everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to
find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the
products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves
themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can
think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store
without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the
eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their
place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again.
Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time
a website, a programme, … changes.
In fact, I should post this to the accessible
googlegroup.
Best, Katty
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19
april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why
does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?
I think that
maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the
fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new
os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp
with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I
began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and
I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook
express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like
calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express
will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but
that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all
don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new
versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't
use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every
one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I
use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still
have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using
it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't
have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is
somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk
thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith
wrote:
Change is hard, but we must
adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have
adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the
search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.
Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to
make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing
it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on
staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his
answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows,
and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."
Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of
alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things
that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to
later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes
down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their
predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences
are where people are required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and
the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.
I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the
pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority
of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me
much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete
divergences from what came before. That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes
than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the
internet.
Brian
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Hi Angela
I agree with you, but such are people universally. There will always be people who will make comments on what others say.
I think that deep down, most of us who are resistant to change are somewhat lazy to learn new things, but so be it. It doesn't mean that it make you a lazy person. Often the term "lazy" actually means "just not wanting".
The saying goes: "a change is as good as a holiday", so lets enjoy our changes, when we make them.
My opinion: if you want to change, do it. If you don't want to, do it. The choice always is yours. I just feel that those wanting to change just for the sake of change must take the consequences if they make a wrong choice and in the same way, we who don't want to change, leave us alone.
Sometimes you find people, especially concerning computer software, who look down on those not using the same programs as they do. My approach towards them is just to leave them be.
To be honest, I experienced it with many JAWS-users, and believe me, I used JAWS until I was forced to upgrade to Win 10, because that is what we teach at the college where I am employed. Please don't get me wrong, I don't regret changing to NVDA, I am very happy and believe that NVDA is a much better package, but the people I refer to, am of the opinion that I am stupid, and then many of them are using illegitimate copies.
Have a nice day
Christo
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Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: Angela Delicata via Groups.io [mailto:angeladelicata@...] Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 10:20 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change? Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind. I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary. I am not perfect, but only God is. I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice must be respected. I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to change. Ciao Angela from Italy Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake
of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't
work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the
new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and
when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I
did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did
of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have
issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I
still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like
outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells
and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't
use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we
have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are
happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can
and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there
may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use
what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has
their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I
use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but
I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they
don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice
and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are
willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to
find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button,
much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the
upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was
getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted
on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in
XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows
the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to
learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her
birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go
through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they
were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the
cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very
familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came
before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents
experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my
only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
--- Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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Katty Geltmeyer <kattygeltmeyer@...>
Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you. Best, Katty
Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change? That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons. Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it. If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience. I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons. Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change? For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes. In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup. Best, Katty Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change? I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote: Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote: Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with." And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new. David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet. Brian
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I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone
telling you. I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message.
There are certain structures that you have to use
the virtual mouse of your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack
of accessibility. but those who design sites often know little, if
anything, about accessibility. And even if a site is accessible, if a
bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently, they may
waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things. For example, they may tab
through item after item on a site when using the find command might allow them
to find something very quickly. Continuing with the Internet as an
example, to use the Internet to anywhere near it's potential in terms of
efficiency, you have to know how to work with sites you haven't worked with
before. A good deal of my Internet use is doing google searches and
looking up information on sites I've never used or seldom used. Some
people micromemorize sites, for example, memorizing that this or that is the
second heading level 4 on a site. You simply can't use the Internet well
in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such
micromemorization. If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a
site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't. but
when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for
me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general.
When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find
the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link. If it
were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might
do that. but it isn't. the find command is the only way I know to
find the link efficiently on the site.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?
Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful
if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or
programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go
exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if
you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they
need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could
assist you.
Best, Katty
Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april
2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why
does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?
That
is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects
users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not
understanding a new structure such as ribbons.
Lots
of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site
by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has
changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link
that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if
someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates
them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may
well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download
again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is
to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search
the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is
now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space
download page opens to move to it.
If
a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to
look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of
the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what
you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do
things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught
properly, it can be just an inconvenience.
I'm
not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes
inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many
problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to
conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote
without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn
programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through
menus or ribbons.
Some
blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and
some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never
taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to
find out.
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM
Subject:
Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?
For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the
following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find
everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to
find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the
products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves
themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can
think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store
without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the
eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their
place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again.
Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time
a website, a programme, … changes.
In fact, I should post this to the accessible
googlegroup.
Best, Katty
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19
april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why
does seem that so many blind people are so against
change?
I think that
maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the
fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new
os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp
with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I
began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and
I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook
express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like
calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express
will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but
that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all
don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new
versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't
use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every
one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I
use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still
have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using
it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't
have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is
somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk
thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith
wrote:
Change is hard, but we must
adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have
adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the
search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved.
Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to
make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing
it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on
staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his
answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows,
and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to."
Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of
alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things
that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to
later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes
down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their
predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences
are where people are required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and
the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed.
I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the
pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority
of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me
much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete
divergences from what came before. That was not true for my
grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes
than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the
introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the
internet.
Brian
|
|
|
hahehehahahehe!!
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 4/19/2016 3:10 AM, Isaac wrote: there against change because they can't see it coming!
----- Original Message -----
From: Christo Vorster
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
Hi
I use OutLook, Win 10 and office 2010, on my work computer. To me OutLook is perfect, but that is the program I learnt everything concerning email on.
I always say that making choices regarding computer programs is much like buying a car. The only question is “what do you prefer, like, or what works for you”.
Cheers
From: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 4:14 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
No one can see change coming, though sometimes when it comes its like you are crashing into a brick wall at 100 miles an hour.
Sometimes its good, often not.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 20/04/2016 6:09 a.m., Ron Canazzi wrote: hahehehahahehe!!
On 4/19/2016 3:10 AM, Isaac wrote:
there against change because they can't see it coming!
----- Original Message -----
From: Christo Vorster
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?
Hi
I use OutLook, Win 10 and office 2010, on my work computer. To me
OutLook is perfect, but that is the program I learnt everything
concerning email on.
I always say that making choices regarding computer programs is
much like buying a car. The only question is “what do you prefer,
like, or what works for you”.
Cheers
From: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 4:14 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the
sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs
won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable
will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook
express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was
hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be
accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and
when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now
have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason
that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email
program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we
don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best
email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not
mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like
change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it. With new
versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want
or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I
know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think
that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp
it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that
there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should
upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us
this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have
cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is
somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to
take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when
I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me
how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start
button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing
the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was
getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who
insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was
that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more
than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's
what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in
XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7
forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions
of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as
strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are
required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or
near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s
and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was
at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go
through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they
were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the
cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very
familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came
before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents
experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my
only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer
and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
|
|
|
Well catty its not really a problem for a single program but if its a large one like an opperating system where you have to potentially change everything and learn new skills and spend to upgrade things to work and have to deal with all the bad things you fixed last time you wander if its worth it. Now in school and uni I had funding and could go up and up. Now I don't, now while I can change once or twice every so often unless a drive breaks, it does mean its my cash, and the blind are not made of cash generally. On 19/04/2016 7:47 p.m., Katty Geltmeyer wrote: For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.
In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.
Best, Katty
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it . With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
|
|
|
I agree, if there was some sort of interface program for windows where you updated the core but chose what interface you used for everything from start menu to explorer to menus, to desktop even if that meant advanced interface features would not be available including ms accounts, apps, etc then I would have no issue changing. I want the system to be as simple as possible for my daily tasks. And while the newer the system the moresimple it is for normals for us and disabled in general its reversed. On 19/04/2016 9:15 p.m., Katty Geltmeyer wrote: Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.
Best, Katty
Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.
Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.
If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.
I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.
Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM
To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.
In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.
Best, Katty
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it . With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
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why change and try to learn ribbons if it makes my life harder in general. Its fine if I need to but if I don't then what? On 19/04/2016 8:40 p.m., Gene wrote: That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.
Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.
If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.
I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.
Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Katty Geltmeyer
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.
In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.
Best, Katty
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it . With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
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What about interest. Well I am interested in new changes but the familiar is a nice trap but still a trap. I'd need to have to change no way back. When my phone died 3 years back, I was like, ok time to make the transition to a touch device. Time to jump into the 21st century. Then as I prepair to leap, someone says, here want my old phone. Me, sure. They its old but it should work me. Ok,. I spend 250 dollars to get talks and I am back in the trap. With my system its the same, I may have to end up buying older hardware but as I actually don't need to move foreward hardware wise for a while this does not bother me that much as it would have a couple years back. Where I am in the world will not change till I get a big break, and maybe then I may change things on a large scale. Now that doesn't mean I am not changing, just not the huge ones. On 19/04/2016 7:57 p.m., Christo Vorster wrote: So true. Shall we call it “lack of insight?” LOL
From: Isaac [mailto:bigikemusic@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 9:11 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
there against change because they can't see it coming!
----- Original Message -----
From: Christo Vorster <mailto:christo.vorster@...>
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
Hi
I use OutLook, Win 10 and office 2010, on my work computer. To me OutLook is perfect, but that is the program I learnt everything concerning email on.
I always say that making choices regarding computer programs is much like buying a car. The only question is “what do you prefer, like, or what works for you”.
Cheers
From: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 4:14 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it . With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours. Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
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Hmmm interesting way to put it.
Lazy, how about frightened, I am certainly scared.
Not wanting, well I have several comercial programs, an advanced screen reader, and a few other apps which will cost some cash every system change, so I do actually want to keep going till I need to update those.
Now if someone offered me like a super deal out of the blue then yeah I am a sucker for packages so I would take it.
Another issue is the environment you are in.
My home environment has users in it who have not and are not wanting to change.
The same tasks I have been doing for the last while will continue to be the same and I see no reason to bother changing, ofcause its like I am in a stagnent pool.
Life is that pool, its not moved much since I left university.
There is only so many positions in that pool you can be in.
There are not that many.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 19/04/2016 8:40 p.m., Christo Vorster wrote: Hi Angela
I agree with you, but such are people universally. There will always be people who will make comments on what others say.
I think that deep down, most of us who are resistant to change are somewhat lazy to learn new things, but so be it. It doesn't mean that it make you a lazy person. Often the term "lazy" actually means "just not wanting".
The saying goes: "a change is as good as a holiday", so lets enjoy our changes, when we make them.
My opinion: if you want to change, do it. If you don't want to, do it. The choice always is yours. I just feel that those wanting to change just for the sake of change must take the consequences if they make a wrong choice and in the same way, we who don't want to change, leave us alone.
Sometimes you find people, especially concerning computer software, who look down on those not using the same programs as they do. My approach towards them is just to leave them be.
To be honest, I experienced it with many JAWS-users, and believe me, I used JAWS until I was forced to upgrade to Win 10, because that is what we teach at the college where I am employed. Please don't get me wrong, I don't regret changing to NVDA, I am very happy and believe that NVDA is a much better package, but the people I refer to, am of the opinion that I am stupid, and then many of them are using illegitimate copies.
Have a nice day
Christo
-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Delicata via Groups.io [mailto:angeladelicata@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 10:20 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?
Always the same old discussions you can find on a mailing list for blind.
I will say my opinion: I am not against change, I am just lazy to learn new stuff and do it only when it is really necessary.
I am not perfect, but only God is.
I think one can use whatever program he/she likes and everyone's choice must be respected.
I wish I would never read such things anymore, but blind are hard to change.
Ciao
Angela from Italy
Il 19/04/2016 ha scritto:
Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so
against change?
I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake
of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't
work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the
new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and
when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I
did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did
of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have
issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I
still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like
outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells
and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't
use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we
have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are
happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can
and do adapt but we don't like it. With new versions of windows there
may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use
what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has
their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I
use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but
I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it.
We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced
upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they
don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice
and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are
willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.
Brian Sackrider
On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:
Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got
this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to
find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button,
much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the
upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was
getting into before doing it.
Pauline
On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted
on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was
simpler to work with."
And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than
Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what
you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the
annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows.
The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in
XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward.
And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows
the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the
differences, but the differences are where people are required to
learn something new.
David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it,
really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in
her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her
birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go
through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they
were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the
cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just
short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very
familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came
before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents
experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my
only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.
Brian
---
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