accessing links in a pdf file with nvda


Mary Otten
 

I have a pdf file that I paid for, so I think they probably wouldn't appreciate me posting it somewhere for somebody to look at. It isn't password locked or anything like that.


This is a cookbook, and I can open it in acrobat reader and, once it fully loads, which takes some time, I can move through the links with the k key for visiting the next link. However, when I find a link I want to activate, I can't seem to do so. I have tried the enter key to no avail. I have tried numpad insert plus numpad enter (using desktop layout). I have tried moving to the focus and then doing the simulated left click on the number pad. No luck. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how these links, which act as the table of contents for this book might actually be activated using NVDA?


Mary


 

Mary,

If you want to email it to me to take a look at I'll be happy to do so.  And to be clear, you're using the latest Acrobat Reader DC?
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Gene
 

I haven't seen this discussed regarding PDF files but if links are the same and behave in the same way as links do in HTML documents, you can have links that require a physical mouse to function.


I'm not sure if such links would respond to the virtual mouse.


However, assuming the links in the table of contents have the exact wording as the actual title when it appears in the book at the beginning of the actual entry, you can copy the table of contents name to the clipboard, open search, paste it in, then search.  Down arrow once beyond the table of contents name before searching.  That may work around the problem


Gene

On 1/23/2022 2:20 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
I have a pdf file that I paid for, so I think they probably wouldn't appreciate me posting it somewhere for somebody to look at. It isn't password locked or anything like that.


This is a cookbook, and I can open it in acrobat reader and, once it fully loads, which takes some time, I can move through the links with the k key for visiting the next link. However, when I find a link I want to activate, I can't seem to do so. I have tried the enter key to no avail. I have tried numpad insert plus numpad enter (using desktop layout). I have tried moving to the focus and then doing the simulated left click on the number pad. No luck. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how these links, which act as the table of contents for this book might actually be activated using NVDA?


Mary






.


Gene
 

I just tried this.  Make sure the what you are searching for has anything but the text removed.  When searching, after yo paste what you are searching for into the search field, look at it to make sure the search begins with the first letter of the actual text.  Remove anything like a bullet or space before the text.  At the end, make sure the last letter of the text is the end of what is in the search field.  Remove anything like a space after the text.  the text may well be the same as it appears later, at the beginning of the actual entry, but anything extra may cause it not to be found.


Gene

On 1/23/2022 3:12 PM, Gene wrote:
I haven't seen this discussed regarding PDF files but if links are the same and behave in the same way as links do in HTML documents, you can have links that require a physical mouse to function.


I'm not sure if such links would respond to the virtual mouse.


However, assuming the links in the table of contents have the exact wording as the actual title when it appears in the book at the beginning of the actual entry, you can copy the table of contents name to the clipboard, open search, paste it in, then search.  Down arrow once beyond the table of contents name before searching.  That may work around the problem


Gene

On 1/23/2022 2:20 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
I have a pdf file that I paid for, so I think they probably wouldn't appreciate me posting it somewhere for somebody to look at. It isn't password locked or anything like that.


This is a cookbook, and I can open it in acrobat reader and, once it fully loads, which takes some time, I can move through the links with the k key for visiting the next link. However, when I find a link I want to activate, I can't seem to do so. I have tried the enter key to no avail. I have tried numpad insert plus numpad enter (using desktop layout). I have tried moving to the focus and then doing the simulated left click on the number pad. No luck. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how these links, which act as the table of contents for this book might actually be activated using NVDA?


Mary






.


 

You brought it, ask them for a web version of this.

The chances that this file was written in a pdf are probably not high.

No one writes in pdf its always in different files.

Most likely a word document.

I had a book written in pdf and also epub and asked for an accessible version from the authors.

I got the word document.

Have you tried to save the pdf as html assuming you can do this.

You can then open it and use it like any website.

On 24/01/2022 9:20 am, Mary Otten wrote:
I have a pdf file that I paid for, so I think they probably wouldn't appreciate me posting it somewhere for somebody to look at. It isn't password locked or anything like that.


This is a cookbook, and I can open it in acrobat reader and, once it fully loads, which takes some time, I can move through the links with the k key for visiting the next link. However, when I find a link I want to activate, I can't seem to do so. I have tried the enter key to no avail. I have tried numpad insert plus numpad enter (using desktop layout). I have tried moving to the focus and then doing the simulated left click on the number pad. No luck. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how these links, which act as the table of contents for this book might actually be activated using NVDA?


Mary






.


Mary Otten
 

No, I haven't tried to save this as html. It didn't occur to me to do that; I am not sure how I would, since as far as I know Adobe reader DC is a reader, so can it convert to other formats? I'd actually love an epub file and wonder why it wasn't sold in that form, but that's off topic for sure.

On 1/23/2022 1:45 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:

You brought it, ask them for a web version of this.

The chances that this file was written in a pdf are probably not high.

No one writes in pdf its always in different files.

Most likely a word document.

I had a book written in pdf and also epub and asked for an accessible version from the authors.

I got the word document.

Have you tried to save the pdf as html assuming you can do this.

You can then open it and use it like any website.



On 24/01/2022 9:20 am, Mary Otten wrote:
I have a pdf file that I paid for, so I think they probably wouldn't appreciate me posting it somewhere for somebody to look at. It isn't password locked or anything like that.


This is a cookbook, and I can open it in acrobat reader and, once it fully loads, which takes some time, I can move through the links with the k key for visiting the next link. However, when I find a link I want to activate, I can't seem to do so. I have tried the enter key to no avail. I have tried numpad insert plus numpad enter (using desktop layout). I have tried moving to the focus and then doing the simulated left click on the number pad. No luck. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how these links, which act as the table of contents for this book might actually be activated using NVDA?


Mary







.



 

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 04:45 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
The chances that this file was written in a pdf are probably not high.
-
Uh, yes, they are.  Professionally published materials are very, very often created in Adobe Acrobat or some other PDF editing software.

PDF came about as a professional publishing format.

That isn't to say other formats might not be available, just that the presumption that something "was not written as a PDF" when it's hit formal publication is not necessarily correct.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 04:12 PM, Gene wrote:
I haven't seen this discussed regarding PDF files but if links are the same and behave in the same way as links do in HTML documents, you can have links that require a physical mouse to function.
-
If hyperlinks are correctly implemented, they don't require a physical mouse.  I'm not saying that none exist that are incorrectly implemented, just that normal hyperlinks in documents, regardless of format, should be able to be activated by Enter or Spacebar when they have focus.

I'm currently playing with the file Mary makes reference to in NVDA and not having any difficulty using "the conventional keyboard methods" for activating links, whether mailto, regular, or in-document location hyperlinks.  I've asked for more information as I need to "get stuck" somewhere before I can offer a potential way out.  So far, I haven't gotten stuck.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Louis Maher
 

Would NVDA key + f7 work?


Regards
Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail: ljmaher03@outlook.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 2:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] accessing links in a pdf file with nvda

I have a pdf file that I paid for, so I think they probably wouldn't appreciate me posting it somewhere for somebody to look at. It isn't password locked or anything like that.


This is a cookbook, and I can open it in acrobat reader and, once it fully loads, which takes some time, I can move through the links with the k key for visiting the next link. However, when I find a link I want to activate, I can't seem to do so. I have tried the enter key to no avail. I have tried numpad insert plus numpad enter (using desktop layout). I have tried moving to the focus and then doing the simulated left click on the number pad. No luck. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how these links, which act as the table of contents for this book might actually be activated using NVDA?


Mary


 

I am really starting to believe that there is either a bug in the latest Adobe Reader DC or else they've somehow changed in the Accessibility preferences in ways I don't understand.

First, I found that in accessibility settings that for the Always use Page Layout Style dropdown were set to Single Page, which would not give a screen reader access to the whole document in the manner that Single Page Continuous should.  But even with that changed, and all of the links working when you land on them and activate them, once you're on a page using link commands that should move to a previous or next link in the document are not working.

Does anyone use a PDF reader other than Acrobat (as I don't want to start playing the, "Which readers are accessible," game at the moment)?  I know that my reader of preference is not, and I'd love to examine it in another reader that someone who is a screen reader user knows to be accessible.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Mary Otten
 

Hi Brian,


I made that change you suggested and the links still do not activate. Not just previous or next, but just trying to activate a link that gets focus from using the "k" key for nvda, nothing happens. Focus stays put. If there is another reader that is accessible, I'm up for it. I've used Acrobat for a long time and it has always provided better access than anything else I knew about. Indeed, it was one of the things that put me off of the Mac and back to Windows.


Gene's suggested method of searching for the text from a given link does work, but it use to be possible to navigate with links, so I'd love to know what's up.


Mary


On 1/23/2022 5:05 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
I am really starting to believe that there is either a bug in the latest Adobe Reader DC or else they've somehow changed in the Accessibility preferences in ways I don't understand.

First, I found that in accessibility settings that for the Always use Page Layout Style dropdown were set to Single Page, which would not give a screen reader access to the whole document in the manner that Single Page Continuous should.  But even with that changed, and all of the links working when you land on them and activate them, once you're on a page using link commands that should move to a previous or next link in the document are not working.

Does anyone use a PDF reader other than Acrobat (as I don't want to start playing the, "Which readers are accessible," game at the moment)?  I know that my reader of preference is not, and I'd love to examine it in another reader that someone who is a screen reader user knows to be accessible.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Mary Otten
 

No, I tried nvda plus f7 which gave the list, but trying to activate something from the list did not work.

On 1/23/2022 4:51 PM, Louis Maher wrote:
Would NVDA key + f7 work?


Regards
Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail: ljmaher03@outlook.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 2:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] accessing links in a pdf file with nvda

I have a pdf file that I paid for, so I think they probably wouldn't appreciate me posting it somewhere for somebody to look at. It isn't password locked or anything like that.


This is a cookbook, and I can open it in acrobat reader and, once it fully loads, which takes some time, I can move through the links with the k key for visiting the next link. However, when I find a link I want to activate, I can't seem to do so. I have tried the enter key to no avail. I have tried numpad insert plus numpad enter (using desktop layout). I have tried moving to the focus and then doing the simulated left click on the number pad. No luck. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how these links, which act as the table of contents for this book might actually be activated using NVDA?


Mary











 

I have already uninstalled Adobe Reader DC, and am downloading it again, but my internet has gone glacially slow tonight.

See: https://helpx.adobe.com/reader/using/accessibility-features.html and try running the assistant.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Rui Fontes
 

Have you tried to open the PDF in Edge, Chrome or other browser able to open PDF files?


Rui Fontes


Às 01:18 de 24/01/2022, Mary Otten escreveu:

Hi Brian,


I made that change you suggested and the links still do not activate. Not just previous or next, but just trying to activate a link that gets focus from using the "k" key for nvda, nothing happens. Focus stays put. If there is another reader that is accessible, I'm up for it. I've used Acrobat for a long time and it has always provided better access than anything else I knew about. Indeed, it was one of the things that put me off of the Mac and back to Windows.


Gene's suggested method of searching for the text from a given link does work, but it use to be possible to navigate with links, so I'd love to know what's up.


Mary


On 1/23/2022 5:05 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
I am really starting to believe that there is either a bug in the latest Adobe Reader DC or else they've somehow changed in the Accessibility preferences in ways I don't understand.

First, I found that in accessibility settings that for the Always use Page Layout Style dropdown were set to Single Page, which would not give a screen reader access to the whole document in the manner that Single Page Continuous should.  But even with that changed, and all of the links working when you land on them and activate them, once you're on a page using link commands that should move to a previous or next link in the document are not working.

Does anyone use a PDF reader other than Acrobat (as I don't want to start playing the, "Which readers are accessible," game at the moment)?  I know that my reader of preference is not, and I'd love to examine it in another reader that someone who is a screen reader user knows to be accessible.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

Now, having reinstalled Adobe Acrobat DC, and having run the Accessibility Wizard, when I open this file I get a dialog that explicitly says that the document needs to be prepared for use with a screen reader, and given that it's 138 pages long that's taken a couple of minutes.  I intentionally did not check the checkbox in that dialog that says you should check it if you are not using an assistive technology, as I am using NVDA at the moment, which is the whole point.

I am getting very different behavior in that all the links are being announced, and they now all show up in the Links Elements List, but they are still not working correctly even if I have focus on one and use the activate button in the elements list.  Nothing is moving in the document, as in to the page for a given link reference, and I have confirmed this by doing a read all command where I know from having looked at the page for a given recipe previously what I should be having read.  What I get instead is that reading continues with the next table of contents entry, which is where I was, even after the recipe link immediately prior to what's being read was activated.

I do not know if this is an NVDA bug, Adobe Acrobat Reader DC bug, or a combination of these.  Does anyone use a PDF reader that's not a part of a browser that's accessible?  I have opened this document in Vivaldi, a Chromium-based browser, but the behavior is not much different, but it is not exactly the same either.

When using the hyperlinks "the sighted way" by point and click they all work perfectly, so it would not appear to be an issue in the document itself.

I would like to have a look using another PDF reader that members here use and know to be accessible.  There's got to be someone, probably multiple someones, not using a browser-based PDF reader and, if so, please post what it is.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Gene
 

This makes my guess stronger.  I'm not saying its the case but I think its worth investigating.  I think this is likely the result of links that don't work from the keyboard.  I don't know how you analyze links to determine if that is the problem.  Possibly contacting an organization like NFB or ACB might put you in touch with someone who can do so.


Gene

On 1/24/2022 12:25 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Now, having reinstalled Adobe Acrobat DC, and having run the Accessibility Wizard, when I open this file I get a dialog that explicitly says that the document needs to be prepared for use with a screen reader, and given that it's 138 pages long that's taken a couple of minutes.  I intentionally did not check the checkbox in that dialog that says you should check it if you are not using an assistive technology, as I am using NVDA at the moment, which is the whole point.

I am getting very different behavior in that all the links are being announced, and they now all show up in the Links Elements List, but they are still not working correctly even if I have focus on one and use the activate button in the elements list.  Nothing is moving in the document, as in to the page for a given link reference, and I have confirmed this by doing a read all command where I know from having looked at the page for a given recipe previously what I should be having read.  What I get instead is that reading continues with the next table of contents entry, which is where I was, even after the recipe link immediately prior to what's being read was activated.

I do not know if this is an NVDA bug, Adobe Acrobat Reader DC bug, or a combination of these.  Does anyone use a PDF reader that's not a part of a browser that's accessible?  I have opened this document in Vivaldi, a Chromium-based browser, but the behavior is not much different, but it is not exactly the same either.

When using the hyperlinks "the sighted way" by point and click they all work perfectly, so it would not appear to be an issue in the document itself.

I would like to have a look using another PDF reader that members here use and know to be accessible.  There's got to be someone, probably multiple someones, not using a browser-based PDF reader and, if so, please post what it is.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 01:39 PM, Gene wrote:
I think this is likely the result of links that don't work from the keyboard.
-
And I don't because if I use them, only from the keyboard, without a screen reader involved they work like a charm.  I just rechecked this again.  It's possible to activate links using spacebar or enter natively, all the time, but most sighted people don't given that "point and click" predominates.

There is something going on either in NVDA, Adobe Reader DC, or how they behave with each other that isn't happening when NVDA is out of the picture.  But when NVDA is out of the picture so is the accessibility pre-processing for the file, so we don't know whether it's NVDA or that.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Gene
 

That's new information. 


Did you try turning browse mode off, tabbing to a link, and pressing enter?  Since you are working directly with the page, links may work properly.  I try that as one way to try to get links to work.


Gene

On 1/24/2022 1:02 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 01:39 PM, Gene wrote:
I think this is likely the result of links that don't work from the keyboard.
-
And I don't because if I use them, only from the keyboard, without a screen reader involved they work like a charm.  I just rechecked this again.  It's possible to activate links using spacebar or enter natively, all the time, but most sighted people don't given that "point and click" predominates.

There is something going on either in NVDA, Adobe Reader DC, or how they behave with each other that isn't happening when NVDA is out of the picture.  But when NVDA is out of the picture so is the accessibility pre-processing for the file, so we don't know whether it's NVDA or that.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


 
Edited

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Gene wrote:

Did you try turning browse mode off, tabbing to a link, and pressing enter?  Since you are working directly with the page, links may work properly.  I try that as one way to try to get links to work.

-
I tried that, and if I'm in focus mode the first link (whichever it happens to be) works, and it takes me to the expected page, but NVDA is not "tracking with" that page in the virtual cursor.  If I hit K for the next link it goes to the next link in the table of contents, even though the page I'm on (which happens to have a link) is many, many pages after the table of contents.  Then, if I activate a link on the table of contents page I'm hearing, but not seeing, nothing happens.  The page I went to via that first link activation stays right there, and the virtual cursor seems to still be in the table of contents.

It's all quite strange, and not what I'd think any user, blind, sighted, or in-between, would expect in terms of behavior.


 

The results in Narrator are odd, too, but I need to try again with having Narrator open first, then opening the file again to see if it gets prepped again some other way for Narrator.

Under Narrator I can sometimes get the links to work, and sometimes not, but I still don't seem to get focus following what's showing on the screen which is much the same as in NVDA.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)