In case anyone should care to comment, I have just created a feature request: Add-Ons Manager: Generating a List of Installed Add-ons and their states #14613

I could have sworn I created a feature request on this a while back, but searching GitHub doesn't turn up anything.

So often questions arise where the answers to same really depend on knowing what add-ons are installed and, just as importantly, whether those are enabled or disabled.  I know of no way to have Add-Ons Manager (or any other part of NVDA) generate such a list so that it can be shared when needed.
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Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Brian Vogel wrote:

I could have sworn I created a feature request on this a while back, but searching GitHub doesn't turn up anything.

You did--#11240. In which Reef, now gone from NV Access, shut you down hard.

I think mainly because the end-user support angle wasn't emphasized enough in the description. That, and the idea of a general "bug report" got conflated with the hard core NVDA developer's understanding of a GitHub NVDA bug report, which are not necessarily the same thing in the context you were describing, though they certainly were in his mind.

The key point that needs to be (and wasn't sufficiently) stressed, is that this is not needed for "fixing" NVDA. There, we have logs, and people who know how to read them.
This is for user support. Both users supporting users, and experts supporting users, which is quite distinct from developers trying to solve problems reported by users, and requires a different set of information.

Explain that sufficiently, and this might have a chance.

Luke

Luke,

First, thanks for your post.

Beyond what I've done, I'm doing no more.  I don't have the time, or desire, to write a magnum opus for something that anyone "on the tech end" should recognize as being useful.

I cannot imagine that NVDA and add-on developers don't end up having to figure out what add-on or combination of add-ons might be causing or preventing something.  Getting a list of what someone's got becomes part of that.  Having Add-Ons Manager capable of producing such really should be a simple matter, as it's doing it already for on-screen presentation.

Someone "inside" either needs to recognize the value, or not.  To me, it's always been valuable on its face, and I just don't see why that's not obvious to anyone with a technical background (which should include all of those looking at feature requests).
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Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Hi.
Until NVAccess takes this request into account, the NVDAExtensionGlobalPlugin add-on provides this list and allows it to be copied to the clipboard ("nvda+j" command followed by "e").
Best regards.

Paul.

Thank you, Paul.
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Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Maybe the code that generates the incompatible add ons list could be modified to take other parameters and generate this list of all add ons?
Brian

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Hi,

A minimal recipe, coming straight from Add-on Updater:

1. Open NVDA Python Console (Control+NVDA+Z).
2. Type the following lines as exactly as shown:

import addonHandler

for addon in addonHandler.getAvailableAddons(): print(addon.name, addon.version, addon.isDisabled)

This will dump name, version, and enabled/disabled status for all installed add-ons. If you instead say print(addon.manifest), this will dump add-on manifest information which records add-on name, summary, author, and other data. I might address the question of issues and persuasion in the morning where I live (as of time of this post, it is past 3 AM and I just woke up for some reason).

Cheers,

Joseph

Hi,

This will work on a local system. What the feature request focuses on is remote and tech support scenarios where a developer or a tech support personnel may need info about installed and running add-ons in a way that is concise and compact, preferably without having to install a dedicated add-on to do so.

I may need to cook up a message or two about the nature of add-ons, what they do and do not do, and other things in the style of an FAQ someday...

Cheers,

Joseph

David Ingram wrote:

Hi brian vogel,  when you go in to add-ons manager, you should already be able to know what add-ons that you have and whether they are enabled or not.  I
did check on my system and what you are asking for already exist in terms of the add-ons that you have.

David you have misunderstood. He wants a way to press a button that copies the entire list to the clipboard, or saves it to a text file (less likely).

That does not exist currently in add-ons manager.

Luke

On suggestions and their reception:
I find the reception given some suggestions to be really ideological and unrealistic as to the best interests of the most users.

For example, I have long said that the system tray dialog should be incorporated into NVDA and not rely on an add-on.

Its fine to say that people should know about add-ons, but there are all sorts of things that people may believe should be the case but aren't.  I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of users don't know about add-ons.  People learn about NVDA in many different ways and they may not know these things.

The system tray dialog was introduced into screen-readers before the system tray became accessible and is a very old feature.  It is standard, being found in the late Window-eyes, JAWS, and System Access.

Why should people moving from one of these screen-readers have the added inconvenience of not having such an old and well established feature?

I wrote a ticket about this a number of years ago and there was no serious interest.

I believe I also included in my ticket the statement that you can't have this both ways: You can't reasonably not have the system tray dialog and at the same time not provide a brief description of how to use the actual system tray.  Yet for a long time and even now, that is exactly what is the case in the manual.  I don't know what is in the basic training module but the manual should contain a brief description of how to use the system tray if the developers are determined not to have the system tray dialog as a part of NVDA.

All that is needed is to say that you move to the system tray with Windows key b, use the up and down or left and right arrows, whichever you choose, to move in the system tray or first letter navigation.
Left double click is enter.
Left single click is space.
Right click is context menu key or shift f10

When I discussed having an explanation, I was given an ideological answer.  I was told that the user guide deals with NVDA and how to use the system tray deals with Windows so it shouldn't be there.

Not only is that rigid, ideological thinking, but try a real world test.  Try searching for something like keyboard commands for Windows system tray and see how many results don't deal, or don't deal fully with the subject.  I looked at three or four results and I only found one that deals with the subject adequately.  I saw an objection at one time that different versions of Windows might present problems implementing the system tray dialog.

I don't consider that valid.  For one thing, I don't know if it is true.  For another, we are dealing with supported versions of Windows and there should be no compatibility problems, if there were at all in the past, with the supported Windows versions at all.

Gene

Hi,

I think we might as well devote a thread to philosophy of screen reading and priorities, but to give my two cents' worth:

Screen readers and their features are, by definition, workarounds. Shocking, isn't it, coming from someone who, for the last decade, championed the benefits of screen reading technologies. I could have said, "we should look at screen readers a bit differently," then say that they are workarounds.

I am giving what could be considered a shocking response for three reasons:

1. To wake people up: I understand that this is considered a highly loaded phrase by some, and some would not take it lightly (apologies). But in the end, screen readers are not your one million dollars answer to everything in life.
2. To demonstrate and illustrate the history, ideas, trajectories, and methods of assistive technologies as it stands now in a single word that broadly captures what you would see and would not read, both on the surface and under the surface.
3. To keep the focus of the thread on the original question posed about gathering add-on information.

To illustrate my assertion that screen readers are workarounds in a more practical way, in a few weeks Windows 11 22H2 users will see changes to taskbar and system tray. Specifically, when you do press Windows+B and press Space, you will meet a grid of hidden systray icons under one roof instead of hunting for them by pressing arrow keys. The issue: it cannot be interacted with properly via mouse and touch, and I wrote a workaround (for the umpteenth time) to let mouse and touch users interact with this area.

Systray dialog internals (to answer a possible question posed): the mechanics of systray list dialog assumes notification icons are visible and discoverable in a programmatic way. What it doesn't describe is the assumption from decades ago that effectively said, "keyboard-based interaction with systray area is desirable and needed but not in place." That changed with recent Windows releases (more so on Windows 11), and will do so again in a few weeks. To put it succinctly, user interfaces and experiences are ideological, built from code, culture, mindset, and value systems of individuals, organizations, and societies. That's my two cents' worth on this one.

Cheers,

Joseph

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 06:34 AM, Luke Davis wrote:

He wants a way to press a button that copies the entire list to the clipboard, or saves it to a text file (less likely).

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I wouldn't care which, really, as I'm perfectly capable of opening Notepad and pasting from the Clipboard.  I just seldom think about something like this as being "clipboard focused" as the final intent, in my mind, is being able to share the information with an assistant.  This means, of course, that in the final analysis, it's going to end up in a file somehow.

I suggest that those who are unaware of the Windows diagnostic most often called the "clean boot" technique look it up.  The exact same method is used to zero in on which add-on, among potentially many, might be the culprit with a user issue when that user disappears with all add-ons disabled.  Being able to send a list of the add-ons that you have, along with their versions and activation states (enabled/disabled) as part of this process is invaluable.  And if you've ever been on either end of trying to figure out which among many add-ons might be triggering an issue, you would instantly know how helpful this is.

Not every feature in any piece of software is targeted at daily use.  This would not be something that's needed anywhere near to daily, but when it is, it would be really, really handy to have.

This isn't about what any one of us can easily see while Add-Ons manager is up and running, and never has been.  It's about essential information sharing for diagnostic purposes without having to slog through things like logs.  Since the information is compiled, and presented, on-screen in Add-Ons manager, dumping that information to the clipboard or a file should be a fairly easy thing to do "with the click of a button."
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Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 09:48 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Screen readers and their features are, by definition, workarounds. Shocking, isn't it,

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No, actually, it isn't, or at least it shouldn't be.  You know I've been saying, in public, for years that all accessibility-focused software is a workaround.  It is a direct attempt to substitute information typically available via one sensory channel through another.  That's the very definition of "a workaround."

It also means, which is also not shocking, that there will always be times where something is "lost in translation."  A very great deal of what's presented, anywhere, that has a sighted audience as the target for which the material was developed relies on all sorts of visual tropes that immediately convey information without having to state it (other than, sometimes, perhaps once).  Color coding of categories being an "off the top of my head" example.  Even if a screen reader has the ability to communicate font color and/or background color, the individual who is blind cannot take in something like an entire table or an entire screen at one time and absorb what the color patterns tell you.  Joseph once discussed the concept of "information blackout" where a blind user cannot be aware of something the screen reader has not yet focused on, while a sighted user is because they can take in the entire screen, picture, table, whatever as a gestalt.  There is no way around this, ever, unless you believe that nothing should be formatted with a sighted audience as the thing topmost in the creator's mind, and that will never happen, and should never happen just based upon numbers.  When you compose less than one-half of one percent of humanity you will not be, nor should be, the determining factor in how things are set up.  [And before anyone starts screaming at me, that's not to say that accessibility should be ignored, either, but that you realize that "accessible" and "equal to the way sighted people can process it" are not, and never will be the same.  Accessibility is a workaround.] 
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Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

I will open a new thread if desired, but I don't want my main point to be lost.

I have no disagreement with saying a screen-reader is a workaround.  No amount of description of a film equals seeing the visual information, for a noncomputer example. 

But that doesn't deal with the points I raised.  Aside from the question of whether there should be a system tray dialog, I think my point concerning a brief discussion of how to use the regular system tray in the manual is important if there isn't going to be a dialog. 

I am not saying this happens often, but I think that occasionally, developers don't see things from the standpoint of general users and see them more from the standpoint of a principle.  What I reported as the reaction, I believe from a developer, the manual is for NVDA and the system tray is about Windows and therefore, the discussion shouldn't be in the manual is such a case. 

If there are technical problems with having a system tray dialog, I'll consider those, but since NVDA doesn't have one and likely never will, then there should be a brief discussion of how to work with the system tray in the user guide.  I hope the training material covers the subject.

Gene

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 05:58 PM, Gene wrote:

But that doesn't deal with the points I raised

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Because I wasn't responding to YOUR post or anything you said in it.  That actually matters.
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Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

I wasn't referring to your message.  I was referring to Joseph's message about a screen-reader being a workaround and about my comments about the system tray. 

Joseph's message appears under mine.

Gene
Gene

Hi,

Unless I'm wrong, last time I checked, the basic training module does cover system tray.

While the user guide (a separate thread really) does a good job of explaining NVDA, I do agree that it could see some improvements. At the same time, we should keep in mind that the user guide can't cover everything - that's why there are tutorials to go over Windows basics with NVDA, and perhaps one of the reasons for NV Access creating a getting started guide in recent months. Another thing we should remember is that the user guide is written in such a way to allow easier translation into various languages - there are languages that will require additional text to convey what the user guide written in English is trying to say, more so if there is no direct translation of technical terms and concepts. Again let's devote a separate thread to discussing the user guide.

Cheers,

Joseph