Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice


 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Arlene
 

That’s right. He doesn’t give instructions like a sighted person. That’s why I thought he was blind like us!  Well, Sighted, Deaf or blind we all can operate a computer and learn off one another. I don’t care as long as the person has good knolege. If the person knows what one needs and can communicate the way some users communicate then all the world to them.  I’m sure brian will continue to be a good Moderator. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Jackie
Sent: December 30, 2020 12:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like

most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I

believe.

 

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

 

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...> wrote:

> Very well said.

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber

> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

> Hello Arlene,

> I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am

> posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem to be in

> support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian

> doesn't sound "blind".

> What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge people

> as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not judge, not

> have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between us? Isn't

> the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a community,

> the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway, my hope

> in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,

> unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we

> honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a

> moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that makes him

> the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on this list.

> We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have

> differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of the day,

> every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless of your

> physical characteristics.

> For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without regard to

> any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge everyone to

> drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus please, on

> the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that make us

> unique.

> Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <nedster66@...

> <mailto:nedster66@...> > wrote:

> I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I thought

> you were blind like us.  Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good

> advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how

> they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.

> I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.  The person said

> Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that screen reader

> helps me help you see the screen.  He tried to tell me to click a green box.

> Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us blind

> users.  She told the person on the phone that I don’t see.  He felt like a

> fool! This screen reader was NVDA.  I don’t know if this is true. This

> friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it

> interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.  Some of

> the key commands are similar to Jaws.  Even my food safe tutor said the NVDA

> screen reader looks more like windows.  He had full sight.

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows

> 10

> From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...>

> Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

> Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

> Rosemarie and Arlene,

>            I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and particularly

> for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted.  I do

> mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of the blind

> technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am trying to

> impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do know, a in

> lived experience sense, what it is to be blind.  I've simply worked with

> blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired for

> quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

>            But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most part, much

> of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the fact that I

> see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone else does.

>  There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it makes

> perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is.  But when it's not

> germane to the conversation it just isn't.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to

> overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,

> but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.

>  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

>         ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan

> and John Boehner

> --

> Best,

> Nimer Jaber

> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was

> addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,

> please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this

> correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents

> by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or

> criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding

> attachments for security threats.

> Registered Linux User 529141.

> http://counter.li.org/

> To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for

> Windows, visit nvaccess.org <http://www.nvda-project.org>

> You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

> To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (970)

> (393-4481) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly.

> Thank you, and have a great day!

>

 

 

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Gene
 

there is a question I was wondering about today as a result of thinking about the discussion. If you are working in a program with a long menu, what happens if menu items cover something else on screen? If a menu item, such as save as or work off line, covers words in a document, do you see the words in the document behind the menu item? Does the contrast change in what is being covered up so you can easily see the menu item and the item behind it is quite dark, or are such things handled in some other way?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 5:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 03:19 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, Ibelieve.-
And that's how I read it, and particularly in reference to my avoiding "point and click" terminology when speaking to a blind and visually impaired audience, which I try to be very mindful to avoid.

Yet, Gene is correct is his observation that it is every bit as incumbent on blind users to have the mental tools at their disposal to "translate" a point and click instruction set to keyboard user equivalent. When I tutor, this is something I teach when necessary. Most of my students have been individuals who are formerly sighted, so they implicitly understand "point and click" style in instruction sets, and what I teach them is not only how to use a screen reader, per se, but what the translations from sighted-focused terminology to keyboard-focused terminology is. They should, at the end, be able to look at an instruction set written for either the sighted or the blind and be equally comfortable following either.

As Mike Capelle noted, "We all live in a sighted world," and I don't think there's a single reader here who does not understand what he meant. Like the old Palmolive commercial: You're soaking in it.

While any given individual can make any choices they see fit, choices have consequences. And if you're a blind computer user who, by choice, cuts yourself off from "sighted centric" instructions, you are cutting yourself off from the vast majority of material out there that can answer many questions you have.

I do not rewrite the instruction sets I have written for keyboard-focused audiences when I post same in sighted-centric venues. I make a point of saying, "This was written with blind individuals in mind, and is keyboard focused, but you [the random sighted user] should easily be able to translate these to using the mouse." I fully expect that this should work in the opposite direction, too, and make no apology for that. I do offer pointers to certain sighted-centric instructions, not written by me, because they're good instruction sets. I don't think that it's impossible to know that, "click on," means "gain focus on and select," "double click on, " means, "activate by your preferred method, etc. It's a basic skill that anyone who wishes to expand their own computer use expertise should acquire. And heaven knows there are a very great number of members other than myself who can assist if you happen to be someone in the translation acquisition phase of your own education.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Arlene
 

Oh, That one tec person was just ignorant. He was unwilling to help. I’ve had real good tecs who wanted to help. I’ve always asked What does the link say near the button you want me to click. He wil say the link will say something like redgester here. Then he’d say I was getting closer to it. I was having banking trouble and I had to have help fixing the whatever problem it was.   The person was amazed that the computer can talk.  I’ve had real good supportive people who wanted to help. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: December 30, 2020 4:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

 


 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 07:16 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are working in a program with a long menu, what happens if menu items cover something else on screen?
-
Gene, no snark intended, but you've nailed it with the phrase "cover something else on screen."   That's precisely what happens, and definitely in Windows 7 and earlier.  There are transparency effects that can be activated in Windows 8 and 10, but I do not think those apply to menus proper, but to window frames and other elements.  Even when transparency is on, what I have been able to see in specific contexts is not clearly visible.  It is intentionally fuzzy by design.

I'll have to open something in TextMaker on my other laptop since I have it set up to use the menu interface, and I believe transparency effects are on, too, to see if they are applied to the dropdown menus or not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Gene
 

Let's say a menu is opened and something like save as covers words in the document. How do the words save as look different so that they immediately stand out and don't look like a possible document? Are menu items a different color or a font that isn't used elsewhere? I assume something is done to draw the eye to the menu item so it is immediately seen as different and stands out.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 6:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 07:16 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are working in a program with a long menu, what happens if menu items cover something else on screen?-
Gene, no snark intended, but you've nailed it with the phrase "cover something else on screen." That's precisely what happens, and definitely in Windows 7 and earlier. There are transparency effects that can be activated in Windows 8 and 10, but I do not think those apply to menus proper, but to window frames and other elements. Even when transparency is on, what I have been able to see in specific contexts is not clearly visible. It is intentionally fuzzy by design.

I'll have to open something in TextMaker on my other laptop since I have it set up to use the menu interface, and I believe transparency effects are on, too, to see if they are applied to the dropdown menus or not.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


 

Gene,

             It's hard to describe something visual to someone who cannot see (and has never seen), but I'll do my darndest.  Menus are, for lack of a better way of explaining it, framed.  There is usually no change in background color, but because they completely overlay what was formerly visible beneath them, and there are lines not only at the edges of the menu, but within a menu that separate groups (much like there are function groups in the ribbon interface, which sprung from that convention).

             It's the rough visual equivalent of a raised embossed line on a sheet of heavy paper at the edge of the menu and dividing the groups within that menu itself.  Whether or not you read Braille, anyone who ran their finger across a paper surface so embossed, even if they were sighted but blindfolded, would immediately recognize the presence of that raised line and be able to follow it with their finger.  That's precisely what you're doing analogously with vision.  It just sticks out because of how it overlays and disturbs the visual field you've been working with.  It's both impossible to ignore and impossible to mistake visually for anything else. 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Gene
 

That's a good description. of course, such information wouldn't be given in tutorials or other training material but its very interesting.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 7:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene,

It's hard to describe something visual to someone who cannot see (and has never seen), but I'll do my darndest. Menus are, for lack of a better way of explaining it, framed. There is usually no change in background color, but because they completely overlay what was formerly visible beneath them, and there are lines not only at the edges of the menu, but within a menu that separate groups (much like there are function groups in the ribbon interface, which sprung from that convention).

It's the rough visual equivalent of a raised embossed line on a sheet of heavy paper at the edge of the menu and dividing the groups within that menu itself. Whether or not you read Braille, anyone who ran their finger across a paper surface so embossed, even if they were sighted but blindfolded, would immediately recognize the presence of that raised line and be able to follow it with their finger. That's precisely what you're doing analogously with vision. It just sticks out because of how it overlays and disturbs the visual field you've been working with. It's both impossible to ignore and impossible to mistake visually for anything else.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


 

Agreed,

Sadly sometimes the sighted can be more blind than the blind and not know where to go or simply only know the mouse and not the board.


On 31/12/2020 9:12 am, Mike Capelle wrote:

We all live in a sighted world.


 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 08:35 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
simply only know the mouse and not the board.
-
And, why should they?  Each and every one of us here knows what we need to know to do what we need or want to do in a way that's most convenient for ourselves in our daily lives.

I would wager to bet, and have actually observed, many totally blind and always totally blind individuals who have absolutely no idea of how a mouse works, even if they know what it is for in the abstract.

There's nothing wrong with either group.  They use the tools that work for them.  It's not incumbent on either to be incredibly well versed in the actual workings of the methods of the others.  And note well I said actual workings.  That's completely different and separate from being able to do translation in instruction sets from one to the other.

No one is obligated to know how you (the generic you) do anything when that differs significantly from how they do it.  That's irrelevant to both sides of the equation, in the vast majority of cases, and expecting that either side will routinely be well versed in the actual methods of the other is unrealistic.  It's the odd bird that is even close to equally proficient with both sides (or all sides, as there are often more than two, sometimes many more).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

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For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Mary Otten
 

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Chris Smart
 

Sarah reports and un-follows people who include too many emoji's in their Twitter handles or tweets.

So yeah, that's what you're dealing with there. LOL



On 2020-12-30 9:12 p.m., Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. <http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. <http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here <Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/





Chris Smart
 

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.



On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. <http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. <http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here <Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/








 

Usually with bline I try to tell the shortcuts.

To be honest I get the sightlings to do the same unless they find what they are supposed to click.

With my frinds that know what's what I say click that and this.

If I know what that is and where it should be.

Of course I don't know where to click as if I enter a menu it may be on either side so I say click in this menu and click this icon, the menu is called whatever it is and it should be somewhere on the bar where ever it is, that does narrow it down.

Of course some stuff can be a bit visual.



On 31/12/2020 3:12 pm, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


 

Thats a valid point, often I have told a sightling where to click and its not that at all.

The reader layout and what it translates maybe completely different.

On 31/12/2020 3:24 pm, Chris Smart wrote:
Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?




On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.



On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. <http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. <http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here <Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/











 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:22 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.
-
And I will say that this is, in no way, limited to Sarah.  I have said that I absolutely, positively refuse to presume that most users I encounter anywhere, but particularly on groups such as this, are complete beginners or "know next to nothing" barring their having identified themselves that way.

I have the patience of a saint when I now such is required, and each and every member here or anywhere as far as groups/forums goes, is there of their own volition.  Potential assistants cannot and do not read minds.  If you are a complete beginner, and do not state such clearly, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to assume you are most likely not.  And if you are, and the potential assistant does not have the temperament to deal with such, they can and generally will simply skip trying to assist.

I have had private and very intense discussions with another member here about just this issue.  His position is that we should assume virtually nothing and presume complete (or nearly so) neophyte status for each and every question.  I feel, and have stated repeatedly, that I think this is ludicrous.  By the time most find a venue such as this, they are generally well beyond the complete beginner stage, so that should be the default presumption.

I have put together a list of assumptions I make on each and every group I either own or moderate, and won't post them all (though, believe me, I'm tempted), but these are definitely pertinent to this discussion:

1.        You remember that everyone who is a member of the group is here by their own choice, and that help provided is on a volunteer basis.  That means that there could be a significant time delay between when a question is asked and when it may be answered.  It also may not be answered, this happens.  When a question is not answered, it’s because no one knows the answer, not because it wasn’t seen.  Please don’t ask again hours later or the next day.

1.        That you read, absorb, and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's been asked for by the person offering assistance.

 

               Those receiving assistance are free to reject advice, you are also entitled to ask for clarification, but if you don’t want to do what your assistant is asking, then state that so that you can both can move along.  Assistants have every right to assist as they see fit, and those being assisted to either follow or reject the option(s) presented.  An assistant is within their rights to withdraw support at any time, for any reason.

------------ 
These groups are not, and should not be considered, pure Q&A venues.  They are about increasing personal skills and independence as much as answering questions, and very often doing the former means not spoon-feeding the answers, but guiding the questioner through the steps to, in a careful way, find them for themselves.  And in the end, you remember things better when you've had assistance in working your own way through something to find your own way of doing it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,


You bring up very good points here. Yes, it's up to the beginner to ask questions if he or she doesn't understand something. That way the person assisting can give the proper steps for doing a given task.


Rosemarie

On 12/30/2020 6:37 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:22 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the
computer.
-
And I will say that this is, in no way, limited to Sarah.  I have said that I absolutely, positively refuse to presume that most users I encounter anywhere, but particularly on groups such as this, are complete beginners or "know next to nothing" barring their having identified themselves that way.

I have the patience of a saint when I now such is required, and each and every member here or anywhere as far as groups/forums goes, is there of their own volition.  Potential assistants cannot and do not read minds.  If you are a complete beginner, and do not state such clearly, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to assume you are most likely not.  And if you are, and the potential assistant does not have the temperament to deal with such, they can and generally will simply skip trying to assist.

I have had private and very intense discussions with another member here about just this issue.  His position is that we should assume virtually nothing and presume complete (or nearly so) neophyte status for each and every question.  I feel, and have stated repeatedly, that I think this is ludicrous.  By the time most find a venue such as this, they are generally well beyond the complete beginner stage, so that should be the default presumption.

I have put together a list of assumptions I make on each and every group I either own or moderate, and won't post them all (though, believe me, I'm tempted), but these are definitely pertinent to this discussion:

1. You remember that everyone who is a member of the group is here by their own choice, and that help provided is on a volunteer basis.  That means that there could be a significant time delay between when a question is asked and when it may be answered.  It also may not be answered, this happens.  When a question is not answered, it’s because no one knows the answer, not because it wasn’t seen.  Please don’t ask again hours later or the next day.

1. That you read, absorb, and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they *like* that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's been asked for by the person offering assistance.

Those receiving assistance are free to reject advice, you are also entitled to ask for clarification, but if you don’t want to do what your assistant is asking, then state that so that you can both can move along.  Assistants have every right to assist as they see fit, and those being assisted to either follow or reject the option(s) presented.  An assistant is within their rights to withdraw support at any time, for any reason.

------------
These groups are not, and should not be considered, pure Q&A venues.  They are about increasing personal skills and independence as much as answering questions, and very often doing the former means not spoon-feeding the answers, but guiding the questioner through the steps to, in a careful way, find them for themselves.  And in the end, you remember things better when you've had assistance in working your own way through something to find your own way of doing it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[ Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states: ] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner





 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.
-
I have intentionally quoted Sarah above, and ask those in high dudgeon to reread, and carefully reconsider, what's been said.  There are many of us who teach or have taught mixed audiences.  What she say is that she says "click this" or "click that," which is vague enough to make the this or that indeterminate.  I doubt very much that Sarah's a sadist and that the "this" or "that" are not comprehensible to her target audience.

Her statement, "they need to learn how to translate that into whatever that means for them," is a direct reflection of my earlier statement that you really do need to understand very basic things like "click on" means "gain focus on and select," as pointing and clicking both gains focus and makes the selection happen in a single step.

I doubt, very much, that she is making reference to situations where complete neophytes that have no computer experience at all are involved.  If she does, then even I'll declare her a sadist (and a masochist, too, because taking that teaching approach with "the unwashed" is a recipe for driving oneself insane in short order).

But it would not be unreasonable for her, or me, to believe that were we to say something like, "Click on the gear icon," and the listener did not know that the gear icon was announced as settings, that the question is not, and should not be, "What do you mean by click on?," but, "Is that gear icon announced as settings when I gain focus on it?"

It's the translation between "click on" and "gain focus and select" that should be automatic, not necessarily the thing being clicked on/focused upon and selected.  I doubt that she, or anyone instructing, will not answer reasonable questions.  But not all questions are reasonable in all venues.  Were someone in, say, a college level course to ask, "What do you mean by click on?," even if they were blind, they do not belong there to begin with.  It is perfectly reasonable to presume certain knowledge in certain times and places.  And if you're in adult education you as an instructor can and should generally presume that whatever knowledge is needed prior to enrolling in a course should already be there.  Not every setting is, or should be, remedial.
 
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Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner