Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice


Sarah k Alawami
 

I pick it up from reading icons. Everyone knows, at least for now that the ellipsis is called the "hamburger" or the "more" button" or the "gear" is "settings." the "book" might be amazon the "mic' might be a sound app etc on the phone. I can translate sighted speak into blind speak so to say if I have read the manual and have the app in question in front of me. If you cannot do that, you will get left behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 23:04, Chris Smart wrote:

Right, but you, as a screen reader user, don't know it's a mic icon, a gear icon, solely from what your screen reader has told you. Where do you pick up that information? From sighted folks?



On 2020-12-31 12:08 a.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings, click on the mic icon."

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:24, Chris Smart wrote:

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.

Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.

Mary

On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. http://www.tffppodcast.com

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. http://tffppodcast.com/shadow

to subscribe to the feed click here http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp and you can also follow us on twitter http://twitter.com/tffppodcast

Our discord http://discord.tffppodcast.com is where you will know when we go live on twitch. http://twitch.tv/ke7zum Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum and my tffp lbry page http://lbry.tv/@tffp You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/


Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Interesting. I don’t think what Sarah says is controversial, myself. She’s frankly right; if you can’t translate the phrase, “click on” to whatever your paradigm is for activating something, be that clicking, hitting spacebar or double tapping, I think the issue is your lack of computer literacy more than disability. BTW I’m speaking in general terms here and not about anyone in this thread. I suggest treating it case by case. If someone tells you to click on something and its truly unclear from context what they’re talking about, just ask them to clarify. Unfair though it might be, we blind folks need to be even more computer literate than the general population. Using a screen reader is itself an advanced computer skill, so if one doesn’t have the basics of computers down, they’re setting themselves up for a struggle.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

I pick it up from reading icons. Everyone knows, at least for now that the ellipsis is called the "hamburger" or the "more" button" or the "gear" is "settings." the "book" might be amazon the "mic' might be a sound app etc on the phone. I can translate sighted speak into blind speak so to say if I have read the manual and have the app in question in front of me. If you cannot do that, you will get left behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 23:04, Chris Smart wrote:

Right, but you, as a screen reader user, don't know it's a mic icon, a gear icon, solely from what your screen reader has told you. Where do you pick up that information? From sighted folks?

 

 

On 2020-12-31 12:08 a.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings, click on the mic icon."

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:24, Chris Smart wrote:

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.

Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.

Mary

On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. http://www.tffppodcast.com

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. http://tffppodcast.com/shadow

to subscribe to the feed click here http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp and you can also follow us on twitter http://twitter.com/tffppodcast

Our discord http://discord.tffppodcast.com is where you will know when we go live on twitch. http://twitch.tv/ke7zum Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum and my tffp lbry page http://lbry.tv/@tffp You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/


Ali Colak
 

I'm sorry, I find it humorous that this is even a topic of
conversation, I would think that a persons attitude towards blindness
and their knowledge of technology would be more important than them
being blind. A tech savvy sighted person with a positive attitude
towards blindness is far more welcome as a moderator than a blind
person who doesn't have those qualifications.

On 12/31/20, Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@gmail.com> wrote:
Interesting. I don’t think what Sarah says is controversial, myself. She’s
frankly right; if you can’t translate the phrase, “click on” to whatever
your paradigm is for activating something, be that clicking, hitting
spacebar or double tapping, I think the issue is your lack of computer
literacy more than disability. BTW I’m speaking in general terms here and
not about anyone in this thread. I suggest treating it case by case. If
someone tells you to click on something and its truly unclear from context
what they’re talking about, just ask them to clarify. Unfair though it might
be, we blind folks need to be even more computer literate than the general
population. Using a screen reader is itself an advanced computer skill, so
if one doesn’t have the basics of computers down, they’re setting themselves
up for a struggle.





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k
Alawami
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



I pick it up from reading icons. Everyone knows, at least for now that the
ellipsis is called the "hamburger" or the "more" button" or the "gear" is
"settings." the "book" might be amazon the "mic' might be a sound app etc on
the phone. I can translate sighted speak into blind speak so to say if I
have read the manual and have the app in question in front of me. If you
cannot do that, you will get left behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.
<http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.
<http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and
you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we
go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel
a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
<http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You
will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
<Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 23:04, Chris Smart wrote:

Right, but you, as a screen reader user, don't know it's a mic icon, a gear
icon, solely from what your screen reader has told you. Where do you pick up
that information? From sighted folks?





On 2020-12-31 12:08 a.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings, click on
the mic icon."

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.
<http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.
<http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and
you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we
go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel
a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
<http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You
will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
<Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:24, Chris Smart wrote:

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls
something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click
on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a
microphone. How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my
instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as
well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell
at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope
Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much
too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted
folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one
size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else
should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with.
I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.

Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd
approach.

Mary

On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot
follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to
translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so,
they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.
http://www.tffppodcast.com

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.
http://tffppodcast.com/shadow

to subscribe to the feed click here http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp and you
can also follow us on twitter http://twitter.com/tffppodcast

Our discord http://discord.tffppodcast.com is where you will know when we go
live on twitch. http://twitch.tv/ke7zum Feel free to give the channel a
follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum and my tffp lbry page http://lbry.tv/@tffp You will
also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
with isp providers. You know how they say click here or
there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of
sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in
sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us
who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about
sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You
get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep
screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get
the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's
next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough
technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just
have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
their way back into "the world at large" that they would
constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another
population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
there will never come a time when most people they meet and
interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see
any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of
given demographics in the population at large. When you're a
niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because
you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that
those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
really would love to help if they are taught how that's
appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is
to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
the time.

--
Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a
bottomless supply of crazy./

~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
Paul Ryan and John Boehner/









 

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:29 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree.
-
Buddy, first and foremost thanks for your kind words.  Also to all others who've offered same.  It is neither unnoticed nor unappreciated; it's nice to get feedback that the things I do matter and are helpful.

But a number of people have brought up the particular trope noted above, and I'd simply say that if you don't like "world" on either one of those phrases try "sphere" or "bubble."

I think that each and every one of us here has a "sphere" or "bubble" (possibly more than one) in which we find ourselves immersed at times that is not "the world at large."  Each and every one of us also lives in that, too.  I have been involved in community theater for decades, and when doing shows and such I at times am in "the theater bubble."  You get constrained, to some extent, by degree of focus at the moment.  I am also a gay man, and know what people mean in the LGBTQ community when the phrase "the gay world" gets used.  It simply indicates that, in the respect of being LGBTQ, there are times where the "among my people" feeling, and the subculture feeling, predominates over being a part of the world at large.

There are "us versus them" situations, but talking about different worlds need not have that aspect.  We each inhabit multiple communities. We can and do sometimes dive into those "worlds/spheres/bubbles" by choice or circumstance, without there really being a trace of "us versus them" as part of it.  I can get why any given individual has spheres, sometimes interlocking and other times not, where the sense of "being among my people" at  the moment is in no way unhealthy. It's also without even a trace of malice or ill-will toward those who are not in the "my people" class at that moment.  And we glide effortlessly between them all.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


 

Hi all,

It’s been more than a “year” since seeing this post… Jokes aside:

I said this on another list I manage a few weeks ago (specifically, Win10 Forum for Screen Reader Users) which is perfectly applicable now. The below statements are from the perspective of a former moderator of this very forum and a person who has managed mailing lists and SNS (social networking service) groups for a number of years:

Bubbles, spheres, and cultures aside (I personally use the term “culture” in this context to refer to values, norms, and assumptions), the reason for this forum’s existence is because we have gathered here to talk about a specific product. In order for organizations to exist, members must come together with a shared goal. Members then set rules and operate within an organization in order to align themselves with that larger goal.

If we consider NVDA as the force that binds us, then I think it doesn’t matter about one’s ability, religion, nationality, or whatever identity marker one represents as long as NVDA can thrive here. As demonstrated countless times, people have different learning styles and ways of interpreting their computing lives and instructions. Some might be more comfortable with using terms such as mouse, clicks, taps, tabs, modal windows, and so on; others might be more comfortable talking about keyboard interaction, hot keys, sounds, and so on. Yet I observe that little discussion took place as to the unifying force: NonVisual Desktop Access. Therefore, we should come to an agreement as to what constitutes basic knowledge, and then think about translating these concepts into various forms for different audiences (the first thing public speaking students learn is analyzing audiences and situations, which is applicable in an online forum like this one)). And if discussion of NVDA is a shared goal of this organization, then I think it would make more sense to showcase unity under this shared goal.

As for making a distinction between two cultures (blindness and sighted world), although there are times when we need to specify our ability, when it comes to the overall purpose of this forum, it doesn’t matter if you can see, used to see, or can’t see. What’s more important is the ability to understand basic knowledge and be able to adapt your skills in different contexts. This includes teaching and guidance as well: before you can teach a new NVDA feature or a more efficient way to navigate an app or a web interface, you must be able to recognize who you are dealing with – the person or a group you are going to teach. Only then true instruction can begin – not only you can pass on an important piece of knowledge, but be able to offer the most effective tools and skills for the moment with a reminder in the end to students about applying what they have learned in unexpected situations and learning other ways of doing things. For NVDA community, this means teaching people about basics of graphical user interface and elements and how to use apps as a screen reader user (keyboard navigation, mouse concepts, terms used to refer to specific elements and interaction paradigm, etc.). I won’t go into details about specific philosophy on NVDA pedagogy unless asked – suffice to say that I am a bit more GUI centric (that is, I tend to use statements such as “click something” rather than “press Enter on something”; in other words, given the world we live in, what are alternative ways of navigating this space that is efficient for screen reader users while giving folks essential information about the world; an off-topic example is Bookshare, which opened up tons of opportunities for so many people, which I give some credit to helping me finish my undergraduate education).

I brought up Win10 Forum as an analogy above precisely because that forum (which I am an owner of) walks the same road as this forum: an ecosystem-centric forum geared toward a specific audience. I always stress to members of that forum that we are gathered in this space because we are interested in helping Windows 10 become more accessible from the perspective of screen reader users. I also emphasized to members that we must be willing to discuss that operating system in ways that sighted people can understand, specifically when it comes to interacting with app developers. For this reason, I personally am not biased toward blind people and try my best to emphasize impartiality when it comes to screen readers – in fact, we do and did have sighted participants (Brian V included) who have learned many things about the needs of screen reader users by interacting with actual users, and I myself received clarifications about GUI’s and terminologies from time to time. In other words, what’s more important is a “basic knowledge waterfall” that, when streams hit different parts of the waterfall, it benefits folks in different ways yet we are united under a shared goal. That unity is what I always stress on forums I manage, and I hope we can achieve that on NVDA Users list in 2021.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, January 1, 2021 5:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:29 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:

All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree.

-
Buddy, first and foremost thanks for your kind words.  Also to all others who've offered same.  It is neither unnoticed nor unappreciated; it's nice to get feedback that the things I do matter and are helpful.

But a number of people have brought up the particular trope noted above, and I'd simply say that if you don't like "world" on either one of those phrases try "sphere" or "bubble."

I think that each and every one of us here has a "sphere" or "bubble" (possibly more than one) in which we find ourselves immersed at times that is not "the world at large."  Each and every one of us also lives in that, too.  I have been involved in community theater for decades, and when doing shows and such I at times am in "the theater bubble."  You get constrained, to some extent, by degree of focus at the moment.  I am also a gay man, and know what people mean in the LGBTQ community when the phrase "the gay world" gets used.  It simply indicates that, in the respect of being LGBTQ, there are times where the "among my people" feeling, and the subculture feeling, predominates over being a part of the world at large.

There are "us versus them" situations, but talking about different worlds need not have that aspect.  We each inhabit multiple communities. We can and do sometimes dive into those "worlds/spheres/bubbles" by choice or circumstance, without there really being a trace of "us versus them" as part of it.  I can get why any given individual has spheres, sometimes interlocking and other times not, where the sense of "being among my people" at  the moment is in no way unhealthy. It's also without even a trace of malice or ill-will toward those who are not in the "my people" class at that moment.  And we glide effortlessly between them all.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Buddy Brannan
 

Hi Brian,

Good thoughts, those. Personally, and for the reasons you mention,I do think I like “sphere” or even “community” better, myself.

Best,


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: buddy@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962

On Jan 1, 2021, at 8:14 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:29 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree.
-
Buddy, first and foremost thanks for your kind words. Also to all others who've offered same. It is neither unnoticed nor unappreciated; it's nice to get feedback that the things I do matter and are helpful.

But a number of people have brought up the particular trope noted above, and I'd simply say that if you don't like "world" on either one of those phrases try "sphere" or "bubble."

I think that each and every one of us here has a "sphere" or "bubble" (possibly more than one) in which we find ourselves immersed at times that is not "the world at large." Each and every one of us also lives in that, too. I have been involved in community theater for decades, and when doing shows and such I at times am in "the theater bubble." You get constrained, to some extent, by degree of focus at the moment. I am also a gay man, and know what people mean in the LGBTQ community when the phrase "the gay world" gets used. It simply indicates that, in the respect of being LGBTQ, there are times where the "among my people" feeling, and the subculture feeling, predominates over being a part of the world at large.

There are "us versus them" situations, but talking about different worlds need not have that aspect. We each inhabit multiple communities. We can and do sometimes dive into those "worlds/spheres/bubbles" by choice or circumstance, without there really being a trace of "us versus them" as part of it. I can get why any given individual has spheres, sometimes interlocking and other times not, where the sense of "being among my people" at the moment is in no way unhealthy. It's also without even a trace of malice or ill-will toward those who are not in the "my people" class at that moment. And we glide effortlessly between them all.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.
~ Brian Vogel


Christo de Klerk
 

Hello all

A few years ago I realised that Brian is sighted from the way he described the visual appearance of what was on a screen in a given situation. I then posted an email saying how amazed I was that a sighted person participated at such a committed level in discussions about a screen reader, assisting and informing blind users. Through the years I have notice Brian continuing to go out of his way to assist, advise and inform. The documents he has written have been of immense assistance to me. I have developed the greatest respect for Brian and his opinions. I read every one of his posts, even when the subject does not particularly interest me at the time.

Just recently I had personal experience of his assistance. Those of you who are also on the Windows 10 list may remember the long thread about a very weird Windows issue I was experiencing which necessitated a repair instal - except that Windows would not allow me to do a repair install. Brian stayed with my issue, giving guidance and suggestions with infinite patience. It was astonishing to me how much of an effort he was making to try and get my system healthy again. Some other listers started posting messages of the kind, enough already, time for a clean install, but Brian did not give up. He discovered an article explaining that there was a Windows bug which prevented a repair install and that tit would be fixed in the December update.

The December update came, I applied it and the repair install worked and this computer is now running as good as new. Brian had rescued the day for me and saved me so much hassle of having to reinstall everything, some things which I might not even have been able to reinstall.

This list is such a valuable resource with someone like Brian around to assist and inform us. I absolutely agree with his attitude that people should not be spoon-fed, but also make an effort themselves first. That is the best way to learn and remember.

Brian, thank you so much for the value you bring to this list and the Windows 10 list and contributing to making them such informative forums.

Kind regards

Christo


On 2021/01/02 03:14am, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:29 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree.
-
Buddy, first and foremost thanks for your kind words.  Also to all others who've offered same.  It is neither unnoticed nor unappreciated; it's nice to get feedback that the things I do matter and are helpful.

But a number of people have brought up the particular trope noted above, and I'd simply say that if you don't like "world" on either one of those phrases try "sphere" or "bubble."

I think that each and every one of us here has a "sphere" or "bubble" (possibly more than one) in which we find ourselves immersed at times that is not "the world at large."  Each and every one of us also lives in that, too.  I have been involved in community theater for decades, and when doing shows and such I at times am in "the theater bubble."  You get constrained, to some extent, by degree of focus at the moment.  I am also a gay man, and know what people mean in the LGBTQ community when the phrase "the gay world" gets used.  It simply indicates that, in the respect of being LGBTQ, there are times where the "among my people" feeling, and the subculture feeling, predominates over being a part of the world at large.

There are "us versus them" situations, but talking about different worlds need not have that aspect.  We each inhabit multiple communities. We can and do sometimes dive into those "worlds/spheres/bubbles" by choice or circumstance, without there really being a trace of "us versus them" as part of it.  I can get why any given individual has spheres, sometimes interlocking and other times not, where the sense of "being among my people" at  the moment is in no way unhealthy. It's also without even a trace of malice or ill-will toward those who are not in the "my people" class at that moment.  And we glide effortlessly between them all.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 



Hope Williamson
 

Nah, I always think click this link etc. Why wouldn't I? It's how everyone talks. Then again, I say watch, look, and read too. It's just part of everyday culture. Yes, I think we should conform to most things in everyday culture.



On 12/31/2020 10:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press alt t, or what ever. When I do my sound editing in widnows or mac usign reaper I think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes I do think in sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm clicking these two points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must think in sighted terms in order to understand most things now a days.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 21:32, Gene wrote:

that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options, then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another, blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person. But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things. that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner















Gene
 

When I'm describing how to open the options dialog to a blind person, I don't say click the tools menu as the first step. I say alt t because that is what the person is going to do. You don't click, literally, using the keyboard. Clicking is an action you do with a mouse when you literally push a button that makes a clicking sound.

If I were telling a sighted user how to do something from the keyboard, I would also say alt f to open file. I wouldn't say click because that is not what they are doing. Some sighted people not most, but some, use the keyboard and I would expect instructions written by knowledgeable people to use keyboard descriptions when writing specifically for such people.

Much of this discussion is proceeding from a logical falacy, conflating being sighted with how sighted people do things, as if they all do things the same way and as if terminology is independent of how those things are done. There is nothing wrong with describing and using keyboard terms and methods when addressing the method being used. this is separate from the benefits of knowing, as a blind user, how to understand descriptions intended for mouse users. but these descriptions are for mouse users, not for all sighted people. And these days, with the use of touch screens, if a writer doesn't know what techniqque a user is going to employ, because the user may be using a touch screen device or a computer with a keyboard, it is common to say tap or click. With keyboard users being such a small group, the writer is not going to say click or tap and than add or press alt, etc.

But when blind people tell other blind people how to do something from the keyboard, or a knowledgeable sighted person in accessibility uses descriptions like alt t, there is nothing incorrect about that. it is following exactly the same practice sighted people use all the time, as I've demonstrated.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Hope Williamson
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2021 3:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Nah, I always think click this link etc. Why wouldn't I? It's how everyone talks. Then again, I say watch, look, and read too. It's just part of everyday culture. Yes, I think we should conform to most things in everyday culture.








On 12/31/2020 10:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:




I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press alt t, or what ever. When I do my sound editing in widnows or mac usign reaper I think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes I do think in sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm clicking these two points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must think in sighted terms in order to understand most things now a days.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 21:32, Gene wrote:



that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options, then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another, blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person. But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things. that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Joshua Hendrickson
 

Hi to all. I don't usually post messages to this list much. The
reason why I rejoined this list was in case I had a question and
needed some help. NVDA is my primary screen reader and in my opinion,
is just as good as jaws. I've never used object navigation in NVDA,
or the different cursors in jaws. This is because I've never needed
to when I was using the websites that I usually go to when I'm using
the computer. My computer skills I consider good for my needs. I
mostly use the internet for downloading books from bard, or purchasing
audible books or making purchases on amazon. When it comes to
receiving computer training or getting assistance, I really wouldn't
care if the person giving assistance to me were blind or sighted.
Just as long as I was able to understand their instructions. This is
a great list and I'm glad to know that if I had a problem I could
receive help from the users on the list who probably know more then I
do.

On 1/2/21, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
When I'm describing how to open the options dialog to a blind person, I
don't say click the tools menu as the first step. I say alt t because that

is what the person is going to do. You don't click, literally, using the
keyboard. Clicking is an action you do with a mouse when you literally push

a button that makes a clicking sound.

If I were telling a sighted user how to do something from the keyboard, I
would also say alt f to open file. I wouldn't say click because that is not

what they are doing. Some sighted people not most, but some, use the
keyboard and I would expect instructions written by knowledgeable people to

use keyboard descriptions when writing specifically for such people.

Much of this discussion is proceeding from a logical falacy, conflating
being sighted with how sighted people do things, as if they all do things
the same way and as if terminology is independent of how those things are
done. There is nothing wrong with describing and using keyboard terms and
methods when addressing the method being used. this is separate from the
benefits of knowing, as a blind user, how to understand descriptions
intended for mouse users. but these descriptions are for mouse users, not

for all sighted people. And these days, with the use of touch screens, if a

writer doesn't know what techniqque a user is going to employ, because the
user may be using a touch screen device or a computer with a keyboard, it is

common to say tap or click. With keyboard users being such a small group,
the writer is not going to say click or tap and than add or press alt, etc.

But when blind people tell other blind people how to do something from the
keyboard, or a knowledgeable sighted person in accessibility uses
descriptions like alt t, there is nothing incorrect about that. it is
following exactly the same practice sighted people use all the time, as I've

demonstrated.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Hope Williamson
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2021 3:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



Nah, I always think click this link etc. Why wouldn't I? It's how everyone
talks. Then again, I say watch, look, and read too. It's just part of
everyday culture. Yes, I think we should conform to most things in everyday

culture.








On 12/31/2020 10:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:




I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press alt

t, or what ever. When I do my sound editing in widnows or mac usign reaper I

think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes I do think in

sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm clicking these two
points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must think in sighted terms

in order to understand most things now a days.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 21:32, Gene wrote:



that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had
swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good

deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched

one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on

a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options,

then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one
thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another,

blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think
about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for
sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person.

But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the

way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort

translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an
ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a
menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the
menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't
think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the

menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities

beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way
sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted

world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to

describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how

to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe
things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things.
that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your

age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got

left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the

rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so

I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much

too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted
folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one

size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else

should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with.
I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd
approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot
follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to
translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so,
they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to
give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page
and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and
eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp
providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that

you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t

see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same

time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at
the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that
should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to
follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this
here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of
your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone
who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work,
they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many
years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my

many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of

via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water
and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for
granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.

You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would
be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you

identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your
responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and

for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of
habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than
anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something,
when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to
say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do
you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the
equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the

tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a

way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep
screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep

instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.

For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving
reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the
red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another
button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's

next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out

there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every
product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs
really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can
serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you
will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and
unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will
quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that
they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a
way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my
patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back
into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be

their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice,
because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at
large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and
interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or
what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had

a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the

presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many
things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I

used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside
the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you
can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily

life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will
change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the
population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against

the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage
to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because

in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same

people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to

help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the

last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be
wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling,
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.

We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John
Boehner


























--
Joshua Hendrickson

Joshua Hendrickson


Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:07 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter
your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None
of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped
quickly leaving the rest of us to pass.

Sighted folks rarely think in blind terms; when they do, it's usually because they work with us or have appointed themselves our advocates. There's a difference between knowing how to speak another language in order to communicate with more people, and being taught to denigrate your own language as inferior. i happen to speak six languages to varying extents of fluency, so plenty of translation goes on in my mind all the time. However, I don't intrinsically assume that English is superior to all other languages because it's a global lingua franca. After all, the vast majority of the world's population does not speak English at all. Nonetheless, people from al over the world realize that English allows people from different countries and continents to communicate in a common language that they otherwise wouldn't share.
In our case, the language of pointing and clicking is a relatively recent arrival to the computer lexicon. Before that, most computer concepts were understood from a command line perspective. Besides, there is a more neutral and inclusive alternative to "point and click": activate. This one word conveys many important messages, most important, that there are numerous ways to activate elements besides using the physical mouse, and that even sighted users can opt for keyboard activation.
Telling anyone to point and click is like telling them to obtain food by driving a specific car to a specific grocery store. In reality, they could take a bus or train, hitch a ride, ask for a lift, even walk to a grocery store; a specific car make and model is far from the only means of conveyance, just as pointing and clicking are not the only ways to activate elements.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:08 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings,
click on the mic icon."
I sure wouldn't especially to my fellow blindies. To the sighted, icons are meant to capture their ocular attention. For us, icons are things to be searched for. If there were no other way to activate an element besides finding an icon, I'd tell a blind person to do a screen search for a specific word and activate the element under which that word appears. This of course assumes that all icons have been labeled with alt text. If not, searching for icons does us absolutely no good.
Contrary to what you obviously believe, even Microsoft's documentation does not exclusively employ icon and mouse-oriented language. If Microsoft has finally come to understand that inclusive language will ultimately help sell more of their product to the blind and otherwise disabled, you, as a blind woman, should have no trouble understanding that the technological vocabulary we've developed is not inferior to the more ubiquitous sighted vocabulary. While being able to translate into pedestrian sightling computerspeak can be a valuable skill, no one will be left behind if they say "activate" rather than "point and click".
Your music teacher sadly internalized a very outmoded thinking about blind assimilation--namely, that we must constantly think and act as though we were sighted, completely denying and denigrating our valid reality. I have read Braille music fluently for forty years. In many ways, I consider Braille notation more efficient and comprehensible than print notation. Yet, I've taught dozens of sighted students to read their staves from scratch because I followed my blind theory teacher's advice to "Learn the staff, Orly. You'll need it someday when you teach." Although I can teach the staff in my sleep, I make no bones about the fact that I never have, and never will, think in terms of the pictorial perspective that staff notation represents.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:12 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't even do that much. I expect a person to read and read a manual, a
quick start guide, etc before asking any lists for help. in fact on many
of the lists I run I say "to cut down on traffic, do you own research
first before coming to us." I've learned a lot by googling or trying to
read a quick start guide if it is out there. One example is on the block
chain, but that I won't go into here. That is one of many examples where
i shove my nose into a something and attempt to memorize.
First of all, learn to use a freaking spell checker. What should have been the word "read" came out as the string "RRY," which means nothing. I corrected six errors in this hastily-typed email just to understand its simplistic significance. Just as you want to tell blind people to point and click when you know which other terms would be more relatable and effective, you want to type these emails however you please, leaving us to figure out what you mean through your misspellings. Bottom line: Sarah doesn't have to change what how she says or how she types it. We have to work around her. This is not how the "sighted world" works, sweet pea. I've had academic papers sent back and even rejected for spell checking and formatting issues. So, if you're going to insist on us adapting to the sighted world, do it yourself, girl. Learn to use a freaking spell checker.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


 

To anyone who intends to respond to issues raised on this topic, please do NOT split the topic by creating a new subject line.  This particular topic was given a "special dispensation" from the group owner to discuss things not generally germane to the NVDA group, and those who are not interested probably can and have used the mute topic  function to keep from having to read any additional messages.

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote, in part, "Sighted folks rarely think in blind terms." This is absolutely true, and I have to ask, "Why should they?" Each and every one of us thinks in terms appropriate to the sensory palette that we happen to possess, and I don't know of many who think in terms outside that. Do you think, "in deaf terms?" I'd say it's almost certain you don't, nor do I. This is true of me because I can't sign and true of someone who can't see for precisely the same reason, but why you can't sign and I can't sign may have different roots.

As to your assertion that there is a denigration of blind-centric language, I just don't see that anywhere.  Stating that one needs to understand and be fluid in the conventions of the larger world, even when there are additional and different conventions within a subculture, isn't denigrating the subculture at all.  It's simply stating a fact.

And your analogy regarding people giving specific instructions when myriad alternatives exist just doesn't hold water.  It is up to the listener, as Sarah has said, to apply the principles someone's offered in one way to whatever way they use.  That's how the world, all of it, works.  No one can possibly know what all the exceptions to something they're offering might be in reference to another.  And if that another doesn't understand, they ask for clarification, or should.  Getting and giving assistance or information is a two-way exchange, or sometimes must be.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Orlando,


When I'm helping a friend with a site or something, I use either activate or hit enter on that particular item. I rarely use the term click unless I'm helping someone sighted. The other day I was helping a friend to download a music file he got from someone else and I told him to hit enter on the file. Just because a person doesn't use the term click, that doesn't mean he'll be left behind. These are just my thoughts.


Rosemarie

On 1/4/2021 8:05 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 12:08 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings,
click on the mic icon."
I sure wouldn't especially to my fellow blindies. To the sighted, icons are meant to capture their ocular attention. For us, icons are things to be searched for. If there were no other way to activate an element besides finding an icon, I'd tell a blind person to do a screen search for a specific word and activate the element under which that word appears. This of course assumes that all icons have been labeled with alt text. If not, searching for icons does us absolutely no good.
Contrary to what you obviously believe, even Microsoft's documentation does not exclusively employ icon and mouse-oriented language. If Microsoft has finally come to understand that inclusive language will ultimately help sell more of their product to the blind and otherwise disabled, you, as a blind woman, should have no trouble understanding that the technological vocabulary we've developed is not inferior to the more ubiquitous sighted vocabulary. While being able to translate into pedestrian sightling computerspeak can be a valuable skill, no one will be left behind if they say "activate" rather than "point and click".
Your music teacher sadly internalized a very outmoded thinking about blind assimilation--namely, that we must constantly think and act as though we were sighted, completely denying and denigrating our valid reality. I have read Braille music fluently for forty years. In many ways, I consider Braille notation more efficient and comprehensible than print notation. Yet, I've taught dozens of sighted students to read their staves from scratch because I followed my blind theory teacher's advice to "Learn the staff, Orly. You'll need it someday when you teach." Although I can teach the staff in my sleep, I make no bones about the fact that I never have, and never will, think in terms of the pictorial perspective that staff notation represents.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090




Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:29 AM 12/31/2020, Buddy Brannan wrote:
I dunno about the rest of you, but I sure don't live in a sighted
world. Or a blind world. I live in…wait for it…the world. All of
this "sighted world"�and "blind world"� and what not drives me
up a tree.
Amen! Sighted people may constitute an unquestionable majority of human beings on this planet, but that doesn't give them license to silence all other perspectives relevant to those who either have never seen or must now learn to live without sight.

Also, Brian, you do so well, I mean you handle all of this
stuff so well, we nearly forget your handicap. (He says, with tongue
firmly in cheek)
I second that. Brian could thumb his nose at all our adaptive technologies and associated terminologies. Yet, day after day, he's here, translating back and forth from our language into the mainstream sight-centered lingo, usually with steadfast patience and consideration.


Orlando Enrique Fiol


 

OK, ladies and gentlemen.  I was not kidding:  Do NOT continue to topic split, or I will end up locking all these topics.  Keep it on the original topic, into which this will be merged.

This is not a request.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Chris Smart
 

LOL! At least she didn't dictate it without punctuation.

On 2021-01-04 11:14 a.m., Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 12:12 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't even do that much. I expect a person to read and read a
manual, a
quick start guide, etc before asking any lists for help. in fact on many
of the lists I run I say "to cut down on traffic, do you own research
first before coming to us." I've learned a lot by googling or trying to
read a quick start guide if it is out there. One example is on the block
chain, but that I won't go into here. That is one of many examples where
i shove my nose into a something and attempt to memorize.
First of all, learn to use a freaking spell checker. What should have been the word "read" came out as the string "RRY," which means nothing.  I corrected six errors in this hastily-typed email just to understand its simplistic significance. Just as you want to tell blind people to point and click when you know which other terms would be more relatable and effective, you want to type these emails however you please, leaving us to figure out what you mean through your misspellings. Bottom line: Sarah doesn't have to change what how she says or how she types it. We have to work around her. This is not how the "sighted world" works, sweet pea. I've had academic papers sent back and even rejected for spell checking and formatting issues. So, if you're going to insist on us adapting to the sighted world, do it yourself, girl. Learn to use a freaking spell checker.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090




Mike Capelle <mcap1000@...>
 

OMG, if someone asks me a question, I will answer it, telling someone to look it up or research it, is rude!

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 10:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

LOL! At least she didn't dictate it without punctuation.


On 2021-01-04 11:14 a.m., Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 12:12 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't even do that much. I expect a person to read and read a
manual, a
quick start guide, etc before asking any lists for help. in fact on many
of the lists I run I say "to cut down on traffic, do you own research
first before coming to us." I've learned a lot by googling or trying to
read a quick start guide if it is out there. One example is on the block
chain, but that I won't go into here. That is one of many examples where
i shove my nose into a something and attempt to memorize.
First of all, learn to use a freaking spell checker. What should have
been the word "read" came out as the string "RRY," which means
nothing. I corrected six errors in this hastily-typed email just to
understand its simplistic significance. Just as you want to tell blind
people to point and click when you know which other terms would be
more relatable and effective, you want to type these emails however
you please, leaving us to figure out what you mean through your
misspellings. Bottom line: Sarah doesn't have to change what how she
says or how she types it. We have to work around her. This is not how
the "sighted world" works, sweet pea. I've had academic papers sent
back and even rejected for spell checking and formatting issues. So,
if you're going to insist on us adapting to the sighted world, do it
yourself, girl. Learn to use a freaking spell checker.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090





Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I agree. Not everybody is good at doing searches. Sometimes you could search unless you're blue in the face and you don't always find good results.

On 1/4/2021 8:28 AM, Mike Capelle wrote:
OMG, if someone asks me a question, I will answer it, telling someone to look it up or research it, is rude!

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 10:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

LOL! At least she didn't dictate it without punctuation.


On 2021-01-04 11:14 a.m., Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 12:12 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't even do that much. I expect a person to read and read a
manual, a
quick start guide, etc before asking any lists for help. in fact on many
of the lists I run I say "to cut down on traffic, do you own research
first before coming to us." I've learned a lot by googling or trying to
read a quick start guide if it is out there. One example is on the block
chain, but that I won't go into here. That is one of many examples where
i shove my nose into a something and attempt to memorize.
First of all, learn to use a freaking spell checker. What should have
been the word "read" came out as the string "RRY," which means
nothing. I corrected six errors in this hastily-typed email just to
understand its simplistic significance. Just as you want to tell blind
people to point and click when you know which other terms would be
more relatable and effective, you want to type these emails however
you please, leaving us to figure out what you mean through your
misspellings. Bottom line: Sarah doesn't have to change what how she
says or how she types it. We have to work around her. This is not how
the "sighted world" works, sweet pea. I've had academic papers sent
back and even rejected for spell checking and formatting issues. So,
if you're going to insist on us adapting to the sighted world, do it
yourself, girl. Learn to use a freaking spell checker.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090