appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?


 

Dan,

           The three options "per item on clipboard history" are Delete (this item), Delete All, and Pin.  It's no surprise that a straight hit of the Delete key deletes the single item.  I wonder if a CTRL+ or ALT+ might do a Delete all?  I have no idea what might do a Pin.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Betsy Grenevitch
 

This is something I have always wondered about but just never asked. When we are told about such things as "clipboard history" it would be nice to also be given how to access it. I have not had any professional training--or not much anyway--so have no idea where to find such a thing. I am sure I am not the only one on this list in that position.


thanks for considering those of us who know just enough to get by and who are not technologically inclined.


On 11/1/2020 5:59 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Cearbhall and Dan,

         And I lied, kinda.  I had forgotten that there is also an NVDA add-on that deals with "collecting to the clipboard."  See: Clip Contents Designer

         I tend to be a copy-paste-copy-paste operator, but on those rare occasions that I want to do copy-copy-copy, paste-paste-paste, I use Clipboard History these days.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

-- 
Betsy Grenevitch
678-862-3876


Dan Beaver
 

Hi Brian,


the problem is that on my system tabbing doesn't get me to those options.  All I can do is cursor through the entries in the history and press spacebar to paste that entry or hit delete to delete it.


Thanks.


Dan Beaver

On 11/2/2020 6:13 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Dan,

           The three options "per item on clipboard history" are Delete (this item), Delete All, and Pin.  It's no surprise that a straight hit of the Delete key deletes the single item.  I wonder if a CTRL+ or ALT+ might do a Delete all?  I have no idea what might do a Pin.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)


 

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 06:52 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
This is something I have always wondered about but just never asked. When we are told about such things as "clipboard history" it would be nice to also be given how to access it. I have not had any professional training--or not much anyway--so have no idea where to find such a thing. I am sure I am not the only one on this list in that position.
-
Betsy,

           You know I've been helpful to you in the past and I want you to know that the following is not aimed at you, personally, but at this sort of complaint.  New features are new features.  Blind or sighted, most of us have to do web searches to get additional data.  If someone actually uses a feature and is able to give some additional information, and does so, well, bless 'em.  But there are many, and I'm among them, who are aware of features that we have chosen not to use.  There's nothing wrong, nothing at all, with giving information about the existence of a given feature and expecting readers to then go out and do their own homework if they wish to use it.

            Offering direction does not always entail offering a tutorial.  And it is expected, for members of online groups, that they possess the basic skills necessary to web search, and if they don't, that they should be asking how to gain those skills.  Age, visual status, or time using a computer is not an excuse for not doing so and if you, any you, need help to learn how to do effective web searches and content review then ask.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


 

Hi,

Actually, when you do tab through clipboard history interface, an overlay cursor may appear to move. Same goes with opening the clipboard history context menu where the three options mentioned by Brian can be found.

I investigated ways to support announcing additional interface items at least twice, the most recent being a few months ago. Each time, a fix led to unacceptable experiences and regressions. Part of this has to do with the way modern keyboard interface is designed (note that I use the term “modern keyboard” to refer to emoji panel, clipboard history, dictation, modern input method editor interfaces and such). Being an overlay window, modern keyboard does not raise events which allows NVDA to automatically announce what’s focused, and once closed, Windows does not tell NVDA that the overlay window is closed properly. This results in NVDA forgetting what you were working on when modern keyboard interface is closed, forcing you to switch apps. The fix does allow you to review additional controls at the cost of hunting for what you were doing last, which to me is unacceptable. The focus issue is the main reason why I told Microsoft to look into usability issues with modern keyboard interface changes in recent Insider Preview builds, as the new interface isn’t working with NVDA (thankfully, the latest Insider Preview build does restore the stable emoji panel interface that does work with NVDA).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 4:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Hi Brian,

 

the problem is that on my system tabbing doesn't get me to those options.  All I can do is cursor through the entries in the history and press spacebar to paste that entry or hit delete to delete it.

 

Thanks.

 

Dan Beaver

On 11/2/2020 6:13 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Dan,

           The three options "per item on clipboard history" are Delete (this item), Delete All, and Pin.  It's no surprise that a straight hit of the Delete key deletes the single item.  I wonder if a CTRL+ or ALT+ might do a Delete all?  I have no idea what might do a Pin.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)


Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Joseph,

 

Thank you for your excellent work with Microsoft on our behalf! I have recently enabled Clipboard History on my PC running windows 10 latest update. Is there any way to get NVDA to see the ellipses at the edge of each entry in the Clipboard History? I can access delete by hitting the Delete button on my external keyboard. However, I would like to be able to pin some items and explore some of the other options that are on the drop down menu under the ellipses. Is there any way to do so?

 

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Hi,

Actually, when you do tab through clipboard history interface, an overlay cursor may appear to move. Same goes with opening the clipboard history context menu where the three options mentioned by Brian can be found.

I investigated ways to support announcing additional interface items at least twice, the most recent being a few months ago. Each time, a fix led to unacceptable experiences and regressions. Part of this has to do with the way modern keyboard interface is designed (note that I use the term “modern keyboard” to refer to emoji panel, clipboard history, dictation, modern input method editor interfaces and such). Being an overlay window, modern keyboard does not raise events which allows NVDA to automatically announce what’s focused, and once closed, Windows does not tell NVDA that the overlay window is closed properly. This results in NVDA forgetting what you were working on when modern keyboard interface is closed, forcing you to switch apps. The fix does allow you to review additional controls at the cost of hunting for what you were doing last, which to me is unacceptable. The focus issue is the main reason why I told Microsoft to look into usability issues with modern keyboard interface changes in recent Insider Preview builds, as the new interface isn’t working with NVDA (thankfully, the latest Insider Preview build does restore the stable emoji panel interface that does work with NVDA).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 4:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Hi Brian,

 

the problem is that on my system tabbing doesn't get me to those options.  All I can do is cursor through the entries in the history and press spacebar to paste that entry or hit delete to delete it.

 

Thanks.

 

Dan Beaver

On 11/2/2020 6:13 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Dan,

           The three options "per item on clipboard history" are Delete (this item), Delete All, and Pin.  It's no surprise that a straight hit of the Delete key deletes the single item.  I wonder if a CTRL+ or ALT+ might do a Delete all?  I have no idea what might do a Pin.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)




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Hi,

No. The post I wrote a few hours ago explains why, but just to recap: this is due to the way clipboard history (and in general, how modern keyboard) interface is designed from the beginning. Unlike things such as Action Center, clipboard history is really an overlay window, so it will try its best to not steal system focus and caret.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:03 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Joseph,

 

Thank you for your excellent work with Microsoft on our behalf! I have recently enabled Clipboard History on my PC running windows 10 latest update. Is there any way to get NVDA to see the ellipses at the edge of each entry in the Clipboard History? I can access delete by hitting the Delete button on my external keyboard. However, I would like to be able to pin some items and explore some of the other options that are on the drop down menu under the ellipses. Is there any way to do so?

 

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Hi,

Actually, when you do tab through clipboard history interface, an overlay cursor may appear to move. Same goes with opening the clipboard history context menu where the three options mentioned by Brian can be found.

I investigated ways to support announcing additional interface items at least twice, the most recent being a few months ago. Each time, a fix led to unacceptable experiences and regressions. Part of this has to do with the way modern keyboard interface is designed (note that I use the term “modern keyboard” to refer to emoji panel, clipboard history, dictation, modern input method editor interfaces and such). Being an overlay window, modern keyboard does not raise events which allows NVDA to automatically announce what’s focused, and once closed, Windows does not tell NVDA that the overlay window is closed properly. This results in NVDA forgetting what you were working on when modern keyboard interface is closed, forcing you to switch apps. The fix does allow you to review additional controls at the cost of hunting for what you were doing last, which to me is unacceptable. The focus issue is the main reason why I told Microsoft to look into usability issues with modern keyboard interface changes in recent Insider Preview builds, as the new interface isn’t working with NVDA (thankfully, the latest Insider Preview build does restore the stable emoji panel interface that does work with NVDA).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 4:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Hi Brian,

 

the problem is that on my system tabbing doesn't get me to those options.  All I can do is cursor through the entries in the history and press spacebar to paste that entry or hit delete to delete it.

 

Thanks.

 

Dan Beaver

On 11/2/2020 6:13 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Dan,

           The three options "per item on clipboard history" are Delete (this item), Delete All, and Pin.  It's no surprise that a straight hit of the Delete key deletes the single item.  I wonder if a CTRL+ or ALT+ might do a Delete all?  I have no idea what might do a Pin.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)

 


This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com




Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Joseph,

Sorry for not reading your full answer correctly, I did read your article but I had not noticed that point in your explanation.

 

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Hi,

No. The post I wrote a few hours ago explains why, but just to recap: this is due to the way clipboard history (and in general, how modern keyboard) interface is designed from the beginning. Unlike things such as Action Center, clipboard history is really an overlay window, so it will try its best to not steal system focus and caret.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:03 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Joseph,

 

Thank you for your excellent work with Microsoft on our behalf! I have recently enabled Clipboard History on my PC running windows 10 latest update. Is there any way to get NVDA to see the ellipses at the edge of each entry in the Clipboard History? I can access delete by hitting the Delete button on my external keyboard. However, I would like to be able to pin some items and explore some of the other options that are on the drop down menu under the ellipses. Is there any way to do so?

 

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Hi,

Actually, when you do tab through clipboard history interface, an overlay cursor may appear to move. Same goes with opening the clipboard history context menu where the three options mentioned by Brian can be found.

I investigated ways to support announcing additional interface items at least twice, the most recent being a few months ago. Each time, a fix led to unacceptable experiences and regressions. Part of this has to do with the way modern keyboard interface is designed (note that I use the term “modern keyboard” to refer to emoji panel, clipboard history, dictation, modern input method editor interfaces and such). Being an overlay window, modern keyboard does not raise events which allows NVDA to automatically announce what’s focused, and once closed, Windows does not tell NVDA that the overlay window is closed properly. This results in NVDA forgetting what you were working on when modern keyboard interface is closed, forcing you to switch apps. The fix does allow you to review additional controls at the cost of hunting for what you were doing last, which to me is unacceptable. The focus issue is the main reason why I told Microsoft to look into usability issues with modern keyboard interface changes in recent Insider Preview builds, as the new interface isn’t working with NVDA (thankfully, the latest Insider Preview build does restore the stable emoji panel interface that does work with NVDA).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 4:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

Hi Brian,

 

the problem is that on my system tabbing doesn't get me to those options.  All I can do is cursor through the entries in the history and press spacebar to paste that entry or hit delete to delete it.

 

Thanks.

 

Dan Beaver

On 11/2/2020 6:13 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Dan,

           The three options "per item on clipboard history" are Delete (this item), Delete All, and Pin.  It's no surprise that a straight hit of the Delete key deletes the single item.  I wonder if a CTRL+ or ALT+ might do a Delete all?  I have no idea what might do a Pin.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)

 


This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

 


 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 05:11 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Unlike things such as Action Center, clipboard history is really an overlay window, so it will try its best to not steal system focus and caret.
-
And from a design perspective, that puts up a situation where, as I've said earlier in other contexts, it's impossible for a screen reader to "be looking at two things at once."  One of my Gmail tutorials gets into this with a control that appears at the same time as something else, and that something else is what ends up getting initial focus and you'd never know the new control is there unless you can see it or are willing to traverse the entire page by brute force.

Trying to decide how to shift focus "without losing your place" has got to be more than a bit of a challenge.  It seems to me that mouse-over blurbs and this situation with Clipboard History have at least a little in common.

I don't envy trying to make the decisions necessary to solve some of these "where should I focus" and where is the system focusing conundrums.  That is one of the inherent problems when trying to access a medium designed for one sensory modality, sight, via a substitute.  You've put it best, Joseph, with your coinage of the term "information blackout" secondary to the fact that a screen reader can't deal with multiple changes presented simultaneously with any kind of ease.  And you are the one who made me realize just how much those of us with sight take in the entire visual field of "the screen" as a whole, picking up on changes that occur because they are state changes from "the normal."  It's not that this information cannot be accessed at all, but no matter what one chooses to do as far as "who goes first" that means everything else is in a black box, and the timing of dealing with it is broken up into some arbitrary way.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


 

Hi all,

For those new to what Brian wrote below: information blackout, at least for me, is inability to obtain crucial information for the right medium at the right moment.

As for quirks with clipboard history and system focus, one way I worked around it is looking for UIA window open event – in some cases, when a new window opens, controls send appropriate events. Thankfully emoji panel, clipboard history, and such does raise UIA window open event, and depending on what’s showing, NVDA will announce appropriate item – first selected emoji, top clipboard item, etc. Making matters complicated is that modern keyboard interface will raise UIA property change event to communicate name changes to NVDA and other screen readers, and announcing it is the strategy employed by Narrator, and to some extent, JAWS. NVDA does not follow this strategy much (and this is intentional) for consistent experience with similar controls – emoji panel is a grid, while clipboard history is a list (this is why when you use modern keyboard with NVDA, you’ll hear position information). Close to half of modern keyboard app module source code is devoted to this task.

For sake of completeness, here’s what actually happens when you press Windows+period or Windows+V:

  1. File Explorer will raise a window open event (this is the case in Version 1903 and later). NVDA will notice this and queue a “window open” event on the top-level modern keyboard window.
  2. NVDA will look at which part of modern keyboard is showing (each component ships with a specific Automation Id, a string that uniquely identifies a screen element).
  3. Depending on what is showing, NVDA will locate the first item to be announced by doing automatic object navigation.
  4. Because modern keyboard is an overlay window, NVDA will not steal system focus. Instead, the item found will become a navigator object.
  5. NVDA will then announce the appropriate item according to how it is supposed to announce it.

 

I think we should devote a separate future thread on modern keyboard mechanics.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 8:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] appending to clipboard instead of just copying to clipboard?

 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 05:11 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Unlike things such as Action Center, clipboard history is really an overlay window, so it will try its best to not steal system focus and caret.

-
And from a design perspective, that puts up a situation where, as I've said earlier in other contexts, it's impossible for a screen reader to "be looking at two things at once."  One of my Gmail tutorials gets into this with a control that appears at the same time as something else, and that something else is what ends up getting initial focus and you'd never know the new control is there unless you can see it or are willing to traverse the entire page by brute force.

Trying to decide how to shift focus "without losing your place" has got to be more than a bit of a challenge.  It seems to me that mouse-over blurbs and this situation with Clipboard History have at least a little in common.

I don't envy trying to make the decisions necessary to solve some of these "where should I focus" and where is the system focusing conundrums.  That is one of the inherent problems when trying to access a medium designed for one sensory modality, sight, via a substitute.  You've put it best, Joseph, with your coinage of the term "information blackout" secondary to the fact that a screen reader can't deal with multiple changes presented simultaneously with any kind of ease.  And you are the one who made me realize just how much those of us with sight take in the entire visual field of "the screen" as a whole, picking up on changes that occur because they are state changes from "the normal."  It's not that this information cannot be accessed at all, but no matter what one chooses to do as far as "who goes first" that means everything else is in a black box, and the timing of dealing with it is broken up into some arbitrary way.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn