Topics

Are web applications that accessible?


Gene
 

I hope someone discusses the feature I discussed where NVDA allows application commands to pass to the web application even if you are in browse mode.  I don't know enough about it to discuss it.
 
As for your browse mode off comments, that is another way of using web application commands.  I don't know when or how you learned to use the Internet so I don't know if your misunderstanding is due to when you learned, before browse mode was available in screen-readers, or the result of poor instruction or poor instructional materials.
 
Browse mode is not directly working with the web page.  When You turn browse mode off, you are directly working with the web page.
 
To make this clear to students, I strongly believe that automatic switching between browse mode and forms mode by the screen-reader should be disabled and the student should have to manually switch.  Not teaching in this way breeds confusion and is, in my strong opinion, just one more example of why so many people don't know how to use the Internet well.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

Hi Gene,
If it were just h, I don't think it'd be an issue. But of course we have
everything else (I think J, P, Y and Z are the only letters in the
alphabet not to have functions associated with them). Of course many of
these are very useful - I use them all the time. But the question then
becomes, what takes precedence, NVDA's keys, or the web app's keys?
Usually, I tend to find the former. It's only very recently (I'm talking
a matter of days) when I learned that you could use shortcuts with focus
mode, and that essentially my whole understanding of interfaces and
navigation was just wrong on so many levels.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 07/10/2019 04:08 pm, Gene wrote:
> Most screen-reader commands, such as h for move by heading, don't
> require such a key.  If you are going to use a web site shortcut, if you
> are in browse mode, you may have to use the pass through command first,
> or switch to forms mode, or, in other words, turn browse mode off.  But
> NVDA, in newer versions, has a feature that allows you to send web page
> short cut keys wile still in browse mode.  I haven't used it but it
> allows you to send commands and allows them to reach the web page where,
> if not for this feature, browse mode wouldn't allow this.
> I believe JAWS has a similar feature.
> Those who use this feature will, I hope, comment further.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2019 9:58 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?
>
> On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 09:23 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
>
>     So of course, when I see websites refer to keyboard shortcuts, my
>     first thought is, well done for trying, but that's useless to most
>     screen reader users because the screen reader uses its own
>     keystrokes for navigational tasks and other things, meaning they
>     would be blocked.
>
> This is absolutely, positively not typically the case.   In particular
> because most screen reader commands require the "screen reader prefix
> key" as part of the command, and virtually no other commands, be they
> Windows, application program, or web application ever use what is the
> screen reader prefix key.
>
> There was a time, before Windows itself, when keyboard shortcuts were
> used pretty much exclusively to work with programs quickly and easily. 
> They date from the days of DOS, and there are very few that changed
> since that time.
>
> There are occasions where there may be some overlap, there can't help
> but be, and even then that's what screen readers have the
> pass-through-key feature for.
>
> --
>
> Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362
>
> *The color of truth is grey.*
>
> ~ André Gide
>
>



molly the blind tech lover
 

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.



On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 


Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...>
 

The basic HTML is actually more efficient for batch processing, which is what I'm usually doing.


Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...>
 

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.


Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep. I learned all of that on my own through almost 20 years of self training. I was only aloud 8 hours so got very basic training. I've ben on my own ever since. When my dad told me on his non screen reader windows to tab and enter in a password, I was shocked he could use a keyboard for some reason. I thought at that time all sighted people used were mouses? Mice? Well, you get the point. I realized then that what my dad was using was a windows key and not a screen reader key. It was cool and I wanted to learn more, so I did.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:47, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 11:08 AM, Gene wrote:
Most screen-reader commands, such as h for move by heading, don't require such a key. 
I do not consider the "quick navigation" keys, which I do use and teach folks to use, "most screen-reader commands."    They are a tiny minority of the commands and apply on web pages.

I also stated, explicitly, "there are occasions where there may be some overlap, there can't help but be."

Coming back to your original, and I feel, central point:   It's all about training.    And once you train someone regarding how to go about "structured noodling about" to figure out new commands and methods as they come on the scene, they're golden.

Also, as a part of training, teaching the command processing hierarchy:

1.  Windows.   If Windows doesn't recognize the command then
2.  Screen Reader.  If the screen reader doesn't recognize the command then
3.  Application

goes a long way in teaching folks how they must think about each and every command sequence they enter, and why.   It also helps to make the concept of pass-through a bit clearer, as that's necessary when the screen reader would normally process a given command, but that command is also used for a different purpose by the underlying application and you want the application to do its thing.

Trying to develop a sense of which level processes what commands makes one's own life easier, as there are occasional times where what one might expect doesn't happen, and you can then generally figure out why and how to get the result you're actually after.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...>
 

I use the pass through on Youtube a lot. I don't have autoplay enabled so it's easy to just be able to pass it right through.


Gene
 

How much do you type of Mycommnet?  Another thing I doubt most people know, is that, when using the find command, typing the first four or five letters of what you are looking for is usually adequate.  If I want to find the editorial link on a newspaper site, I search for editorr and if I want to find a contact link, I search for cont.  Sometimes, such as on the Newsline site, I search for rk ti for New York Times.  Note that this isn't starting at the beginning of the first word, it is typing a small amount of what I'm searching for in the middle of the string that won't be used elsewhere on the publications list page. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.



On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 


Gene
 

I don't think blind people should be taught the elements list until they have thoroughly mastered the find command and other ways to navigate.  Yet a lot of instructional material teaches the elements list very early.  It is not anything like any structure on the web page and it separates the user from the web page and makes teaching looking at context more difficult. 
 
Once the student has mastered other ways of working with web pages, there is plenty of time to teach this completely artificial structure.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages
with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list
would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for
instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.



 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:02 PM, Gene wrote:
Another thing I doubt most people know, is that, when using the find command, typing the first four or five letters of what you are looking for is usually adequate.
And this isn't just true on screen reader finds, either.   As a general first pass one should provide only enough to be distinctive enough to narrow results to what one thinks one wants.   You can't use, say, "the," as a search term and expect to get anything that anyone would want to trudge through.  But, by contrast, using "geot" when you know a document has (or may have) the word "geothermal" in it is generally more than enough.  There just aren't many words in the English language that start with those 4 letters, and specifically if one is dealing with a single document or webpage.

Web searches are a thing of their own, and different.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


molly the blind tech lover
 

I just type the whole thing…

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

How much do you type of Mycommnet?  Another thing I doubt most people know, is that, when using the find command, typing the first four or five letters of what you are looking for is usually adequate.  If I want to find the editorial link on a newspaper site, I search for editorr and if I want to find a contact link, I search for cont.  Sometimes, such as on the Newsline site, I search for rk ti for New York Times.  Note that this isn't starting at the beginning of the first word, it is typing a small amount of what I'm searching for in the middle of the string that won't be used elsewhere on the publications list page. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.

 

On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep. If I'm on my flight briefing and I want to search for situation, I hit control nfda f, and type "sit" and keep hitting nvda f3 until I find "aircraft situation" or i can go to the elements dialogue and start typing "sit" and just hit enter, what ever fir me is faster at the time.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 9:02, Gene wrote:

How much do you type of Mycommnet?  Another thing I doubt most people know, is that, when using the find command, typing the first four or five letters of what you are looking for is usually adequate.  If I want to find the editorial link on a newspaper site, I search for editorr and if I want to find a contact link, I search for cont.  Sometimes, such as on the Newsline site, I search for rk ti for New York Times.  Note that this isn't starting at the beginning of the first word, it is typing a small amount of what I'm searching for in the middle of the string that won't be used elsewhere on the publications list page. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.



On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 


molly the blind tech lover
 

When I received training it was with Jaws, and one of the first things I was taught  was how to use the elements list. I taught myself how to use NVDA when I got home, because there was no one else. I like to think I am pretty competent with NVDA, though I am certainly no expert.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I don't think blind people should be taught the elements list until they have thoroughly mastered the find command and other ways to navigate.  Yet a lot of instructional material teaches the elements list very early.  It is not anything like any structure on the web page and it separates the user from the web page and makes teaching looking at context more difficult. 

 

Once the student has mastered other ways of working with web pages, there is plenty of time to teach this completely artificial structure.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages
with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list
would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for
instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.


Sarah k Alawami
 

You can do that or go into the elements list and quickly type the element name. I type titl and get to title very quickly then just press enter once. Ten I type s and get to social and hit enter once. Then just use 3 to go and find the fields I want to edit. Both methods work equally well. Ther is also a filter edit box i the elements view where you can filter by for example titl or s, and it will just show those.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:55, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.



On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 


molly the blind tech lover
 

I’ll have to try that

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

You can do that or go into the elements list and quickly type the element name. I type titl and get to title very quickly then just press enter once. Ten I type s and get to social and hit enter once. Then just use 3 to go and find the fields I want to edit. Both methods work equally well. Ther is also a filter edit box i the elements view where you can filter by for example titl or s, and it will just show those.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:55, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.




On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 


 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:26 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You can do that or go into the elements list and quickly type the element name
The problem with this theory is it relies upon the web page developer to have bothered to have structured the page well, and often they don't.

I have nothing against the elements list, and teach people how to use it, but one needs to approach it with caution and use it in combination with other tools.  You can't count on something "not being there" because it's not in any one of the elements lists (whether in NVDA, JAWS, or any other screen reader).   You can be assured that if you do both a screen reader find and, if necessary, a straight application program find as well and can't find something that it's really not there.  I often use straight find commands when a visual scan doesn't immediately turn up what I think should be there, but I can't spot.  It's the same concept - knowing how to double and sometimes triple check yourself.

I don't think that anyone, including myself, is saying one should never use tool X or tool Y.   Being aware of the limitations of tool X and tool Y, which may mean you need to resort to tool Z upon occasion, is, however, vital.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Sarah k Alawami
 

Oh no that's true. Luckelly this site is well done, mostly. But I have encountere s sites which are not and even the find does not find it because x menu is not expanded as of yet which makes things even harder.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 9:32, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:26 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You can do that or go into the elements list and quickly type the element name
The problem with this theory is it relies upon the web page developer to have bothered to have structured the page well, and often they don't.

I have nothing against the elements list, and teach people how to use it, but one needs to approach it with caution and use it in combination with other tools.  You can't count on something "not being there" because it's not in any one of the elements lists (whether in NVDA, JAWS, or any other screen reader).   You can be assured that if you do both a screen reader find and, if necessary, a straight application program find as well and can't find something that it's really not there.  I often use straight find commands when a visual scan doesn't immediately turn up what I think should be there, but I can't spot.  It's the same concept - knowing how to double and sometimes triple check yourself.

I don't think that anyone, including myself, is saying one should never use tool X or tool Y.   Being aware of the limitations of tool X and tool Y, which may mean you need to resort to tool Z upon occasion, is, however, vital.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:36 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
the find does not find it because x menu is not expanded as of yet which makes things even harder.
There are various circles of hell, and when it comes to web pages this is one of them, and while it's far worse for the blind webpage browser it's none too fun for those of us who can see, either, as unless you've already "been there, done that" you have no idea that it exists at all.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

My thoughts on web apps is that many sites use web apps these days, and it makes accessing the sites with the web apps easier in many cases.

In Gmail, users can use up/down arrow keys to traverse the list of emails. Pressing left arrow places focus in the navigation bar. Pressing enter opens an email. Pressing n/p moves between emails in the thread. Pressing x selects the email in order to do batch operations on emails. Pressing r replies, pressing a does a reply all.

These methods of navigating are so much faster than doing a find, using basic HTML, or whatever else users do to navigate Gmail. If you are unfamiliar with web apps, you would still be using basic HTML with all of its limitations.

Twitter also has a list of these keyboard shortcuts. As does Facebook. As did Google Plus. As does Google Play Music. As does Youtube to some extent.

Whether users choose to use web apps or not is dependent on them and how likely they are to adapt to a new way of navigating. I think web apps can improve efficiency, but knowing to navigate without web apps is important as well.

In the NVDA user guide, under section 6.1, there is an option of pressing NVDA+shift+space which disables browse mode commands for a particular webpage and allows the use of browse mode and web app commands. I typically don't use this, and often just turn off browse mode, but this really is up to the user to choose how to best use NVDA.

Thanks.

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:23 AM molly the blind tech lover <brainardmolly@...> wrote:

When I received training it was with Jaws, and one of the first things I was taught  was how to use the elements list. I taught myself how to use NVDA when I got home, because there was no one else. I like to think I am pretty competent with NVDA, though I am certainly no expert.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I don't think blind people should be taught the elements list until they have thoroughly mastered the find command and other ways to navigate.  Yet a lot of instructional material teaches the elements list very early.  It is not anything like any structure on the web page and it separates the user from the web page and makes teaching looking at context more difficult. 

 

Once the student has mastered other ways of working with web pages, there is plenty of time to teach this completely artificial structure.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages
with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list
would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for
instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.



--
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Nimer Jaber

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
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Gene
 

It works well if you are already familiar with the page.  But if you are using an unfamiliar page and you search for listen using the links list, and the link actually says click here to listen Live, you won't find it.  That is one reason I believe the elements list should be taught after someone thoroughly knows how to work with web pages in other ways.  Also, if I use a page enough to just remember that the link says Listen Live, that's fine, but I don't want to micromemorize web pages.  Using search will find the link whether it says listen live or click here to listen live, so I don't have to remember that kind of detail.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

You can do that or go into the elements list and quickly type the element name. I type titl and get to title very quickly then just press enter once. Ten I type s and get to social and hit enter once. Then just use 3 to go and find the fields I want to edit. Both methods work equally well. Ther is also a filter edit box i the elements view where you can filter by for example titl or s, and it will just show those.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:55, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

I use the find function to find the MyCommnet,  where you log in  on my school’s website. Otherwise you’d have to activate the elements list and press the letter m until you hear MyCommnet.

The find dialog really saves me time. I just love NVDA

 😂

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I actually rarely use the find function on for example http://restream.io I jut use elements list to get to title, then social to update my stuff and e to get to the firs the edit field. Man I hope one day I can edit this stuff using the app as it is just more convenient.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and mixer. Thanks Restream staff.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 7 Oct 2019, at 8:22, Devin Prater wrote:

Yes, I do like the Find function. I teach my students to use that, over the commonly taught “elements list” dinosaur. Seriously, when a website is mainly reading, the elements list skips so much, and it only makes a blind person’s life harder because if that element isn’t there anymore, or it changes from a link to a button, well there ya go. But if it’s a web app we’re working with, I try to use it as “natively” as possible, turning on focus mode, using Tab, shift+Tab, and keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.



On Oct 7, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 10:51 AM, Gene wrote:

But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.

 

The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.

Indeed.   What's worse is how often I see people making the assertion, "You can't do {insert thing X}," which I know for fact you can do, and have been able to do for years.   Or stating that something is inaccessible not because it's actually inaccessible, but because they do not know how to access it.   That's one of the very reasons that questions of the form, "Is {insert program or app here} accessible with NVDA?," are allowed and encouraged on this group.  Though one can install and play with things, and actually should, when a given program either costs money and/or is quite complex it makes perfect sense to try to determine whether it's accessible or not before investing a lot of time in playing with it.   One good thing about groups, though, is that you can easily figure out when an incorrect assertion has been made based upon the typical flow of, "That's just not the case," often accompanied by instructions on how to access something that follows it.

And the screen reader find is one of the most handy and grossly underused features for "quick and dirty" movement around a given cyber landscape that I know of.  One of the tutorials I wrote ages ago,Mass Selection and Deletion of Gmail Messages via the Gmail Web Interface, was in response to several assertions of the "you can't do that, at all" nature that were offered.  And if you don't use the screen reader find function (see step 3) it is impossible to do, but with it, well . . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 

 


 

We've "gotten very meta" on this topic, but this is a perfect example of where the meta information is hugely important and helpful.

One thing I feel needs to be added with regard to training, as I'm someone who does it, is that it is generally tightly constrained both by time and money (the former of which almost always being a function of availability of the latter).   It is impossible to teach everything about a screen reader, or even close to it, and I know of no one, including individuals who are far, far, far more skilled than myself with a given screen reader knowing anything close to everything about it.   We do what we can with what we know, will admit what we don't know, and will try to research questions that we don't know the answer to in real time during training when that's feasible and before the next session when not.

Both instructors and users will find themselves in positions where they have to dig for information, and often from multiple sources, and the more arcane the information the more likely it is that turning to groups like this will be necessary and, quite often, the fastest way to get an answer.   There's almost invariably someone else who's suffered through the same issue you're facing.

That being said, anyone receiving screen reader training that's focused on beginners needs to realize that this is exactly what you're getting.  The intent is to get you up and running and able to do "the most common and simple things" yourself quickly.  These basic skills are meant to be built upon by ongoing independent study.   Basic training will never focus on advanced skills and, if you have a good instructor, they will have told you enough about how to start noodling around and looking at your screen reader settings and/or search those (which I hope will become possible in NVDA in the foreseeable future) so that you can do your own problem solving.  And that's not to say you shouldn't ask for help, either, but sometimes help will not be forthcoming and it will be you, and your own tenacity and initiative, that ultimately uncovers the solution.  Then you'll be the subject matter expert for a particular arcane issue when someone asks about it in the future.

And it isn't just screen readers where all of the above applies.   After more than 30 years in the computing world I can tell you it applies universally when it comes to training and learning any complex software (or any complex thing outside the computing world, for that matter - think musical instruments for a very clear example).  Also accept that except in very constrained circumstances, practice seldom makes perfect, just much better.  You have to decide what's good enough for you and your purposes.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide