Topics

Are web applications that accessible?


Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep. agreed. Just like a computer, I did not sit down, pick up my cello and start playing the bach suite the first day. I played, squeak squeak squeak, squak. so yeah Brian is right. I got 8 hours on the simple stuff, and my teacher was awesome by the way, but then I just listened to, and memorized, the training tapes and went on my way. I don't know everything about everything but I'm willing to learn.

Take care and be blessed and happy nvda using and web surfing.

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On 7 Oct 2019, at 10:19, Brian Vogel wrote:

We've "gotten very meta" on this topic, but this is a perfect example of where the meta information is hugely important and helpful.

One thing I feel needs to be added with regard to training, as I'm someone who does it, is that it is generally tightly constrained both by time and money (the former of which almost always being a function of availability of the latter).   It is impossible to teach everything about a screen reader, or even close to it, and I know of no one, including individuals who are far, far, far more skilled than myself with a given screen reader knowing anything close to everything about it.   We do what we can with what we know, will admit what we don't know, and will try to research questions that we don't know the answer to in real time during training when that's feasible and before the next session when not.

Both instructors and users will find themselves in positions where they have to dig for information, and often from multiple sources, and the more arcane the information the more likely it is that turning to groups like this will be necessary and, quite often, the fastest way to get an answer.   There's almost invariably someone else who's suffered through the same issue you're facing.

That being said, anyone receiving screen reader training that's focused on beginners needs to realize that this is exactly what you're getting.  The intent is to get you up and running and able to do "the most common and simple things" yourself quickly.  These basic skills are meant to be built upon by ongoing independent study.   Basic training will never focus on advanced skills and, if you have a good instructor, they will have told you enough about how to start noodling around and looking at your screen reader settings and/or search those (which I hope will become possible in NVDA in the foreseeable future) so that you can do your own problem solving.  And that's not to say you shouldn't ask for help, either, but sometimes help will not be forthcoming and it will be you, and your own tenacity and initiative, that ultimately uncovers the solution.  Then you'll be the subject matter expert for a particular arcane issue when someone asks about it in the future.

And it isn't just screen readers where all of the above applies.   After more than 30 years in the computing world I can tell you it applies universally when it comes to training and learning any complex software (or any complex thing outside the computing world, for that matter - think musical instruments for a very clear example).  Also accept that except in very constrained circumstances, practice seldom makes perfect, just much better.  You have to decide what's good enough for you and your purposes.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...>
 

Hello again,


To narrow it down to a very specific feature mentioned here: keyboard shortcuts in web apps.  As was mentioned in a previous post, the list of available shortcuts in Gmail isn't short.  Lots can be done through the keyboard.  Going through the list of messages using the up/down arrow keys is definitely something most people will expect.  Opening the message when pressing Enter is another.  But here's the catch: pressing X to select a message?  Why on earth... the thing is, pressing space would have felt more natural to most of us, but intercepting the space key is not that portable on web applications.  Pressing left arrow to open the navigation bar is great, but shouldn't alt have been used?  And yet, of course, in a web application, alt is to access the browser menu bar, not the application's.


In the previous post, lots of web applications were mentioned.  The thing is, not all of them have as good support as Gmail.  And all of them offer different keyboard shortcuts.  That's the problem, I think, or at least, one of the problems: if we have to bow to web applications and say "well, no point in avoiding them, let's get on a first-name basis instead", it also means that we'll need to learn individual application shortcut.  Am I suggesting it's not the case in a desktop application?  Yes and no.  In a Desktop application, often what you can do is connected to the type of element you are on.  You know if you are focused on a list, you might use the arrow keys to browse it.  You might use letters to jump to individual list items.  In a web application, things are a bit more complex, as the connection between "element type" and "shortcut keys" is pretty loose.  ARIA encourages a very good structure and helps to create Javascript aligned with users' expectation.  But still, it's the developer's responsibility to create keyboard shortcuts that "make sense" to users.  And all developers seem to have different ideas about what makes sense.


So what would be the solution?  Having some kind of "shortcut key standard" might sound a bit extreme and definite.  But I believe something has to be done in regard to "freely used keyboard shortcut" to try and come up with something more universal.


I'll state it again though: for me, it's only one of the problems with web applications, but I admit it's (still in my opinion) a rather important one.  How to teach to be proficient with a screen reader is going to become "how to be proficient with Youtube" or "how to be proficient with Gmail".  Not saying that's not important, just that a bit of uniformity would be welcome here.  The tools exist too.  Regardless, I would find it too bad if new users were taught to use such and such web application, not how to use a computer, or a screen reader.


Vincent

On 10/7/2019 6:43 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

My thoughts on web apps is that many sites use web apps these days, and it makes accessing the sites with the web apps easier in many cases.

In Gmail, users can use up/down arrow keys to traverse the list of emails. Pressing left arrow places focus in the navigation bar. Pressing enter opens an email. Pressing n/p moves between emails in the thread. Pressing x selects the email in order to do batch operations on emails. Pressing r replies, pressing a does a reply all.

These methods of navigating are so much faster than doing a find, using basic HTML, or whatever else users do to navigate Gmail. If you are unfamiliar with web apps, you would still be using basic HTML with all of its limitations.

Twitter also has a list of these keyboard shortcuts. As does Facebook. As did Google Plus. As does Google Play Music. As does Youtube to some extent.

Whether users choose to use web apps or not is dependent on them and how likely they are to adapt to a new way of navigating. I think web apps can improve efficiency, but knowing to navigate without web apps is important as well.

In the NVDA user guide, under section 6.1, there is an option of pressing NVDA+shift+space which disables browse mode commands for a particular webpage and allows the use of browse mode and web app commands. I typically don't use this, and often just turn off browse mode, but this really is up to the user to choose how to best use NVDA.

Thanks.

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:23 AM molly the blind tech lover <brainardmolly@...> wrote:

When I received training it was with Jaws, and one of the first things I was taught  was how to use the elements list. I taught myself how to use NVDA when I got home, because there was no one else. I like to think I am pretty competent with NVDA, though I am certainly no expert.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 12:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I don't think blind people should be taught the elements list until they have thoroughly mastered the find command and other ways to navigate.  Yet a lot of instructional material teaches the elements list very early.  It is not anything like any structure on the web page and it separates the user from the web page and makes teaching looking at context more difficult. 

 

Once the student has mastered other ways of working with web pages, there is plenty of time to teach this completely artificial structure.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 10:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

 

I enjoy using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy pages
with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with the elements list
would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS reader web page for
instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over 300.



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About web apps:

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 03:14 PM, Vincent Le Goff wrote:
And all of them offer different keyboard shortcuts.
To an extent that's true, and it's a result of web development history.

Desktop apps (installed application programs) under Windows are a very direct transition from their DOS equivalents way back when, and Microsoft had established a de facto standard surrounding keyboard shortcuts for those, which many people then adopted.

You can see the same sort of thing going on right now, but in a different direction, with Narrator under Windows 10.   It is in the process of becoming more and more JAWS-like since JAWS is the granddaddy of all screen readers in the market and the one that most are familiar with.   Even NVDA clearly has "command DNA" that was adopted from JAWS.

Eventually, some dominant paradigm will emerge victorious (think back to Beta versus VHS, for those here old enough to get the referent).   There has been a decades long trend toward this sort of thing occurring across different software (and, even to some extent, operating systems).

We just so happen to be in the infancy of that battle, on the bleeding edge as is often said.  Eventually the bleeding stops.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


 

Well web apps are quite accessible, and in some way more than web apps as long as they comply with webpage accessibility.

Sadly, just like desktop apps there are a lot of technologies about and things and if things are not done right you will have in access.

On 8/10/2019 1:25 am, Vincent Le Goff wrote:
Hello everyone,


Having used several Web applications in the last few years, I've been wondering why we still want desktop applications and claim for accessibility.  This thread is more to ask for opinion on the matter and perhaps, collect useful ideas we can shape into NVDA features or suggest to web application designers.  This is not a "plea for help" topic, but I don't think I'm breaking list rules (I hope not anyway), as this could benefit NVDA and is not a trivial issue.


Web apps are trendy.  And that's probably going to last for awhile, if not replace our Desktop applicaitons.  But for us, is it really a good news?  Why does a Desktop app tends to feel "more accessible" than a web app?  The thing is, there are lots of reasons why we appreciate our Desktop applications and get frustrated when we have to get the web application if a Desktop equivalent doesn't exist.  Beyond the fact that we're "used" to how an application works (which, obviously, is not the case when there's no Desktop equivalent), a website is in most cases incredibly more complex for us.  First of all, there are two navigation modes to understand and switch between instead of just one plain "way to do things".  There's no clear menubar and when we get an accessible menu, we can clap and send cookies to the web designer.  Sometimes (but not often) there's a real context menu we can really, you know, invoke from the application key and browse through the arrow keys.  And sometimes (often, to be sure), there are shortcuts to perform "standard" operations in the web app.


So do we just need to rethink our expectation of what an accessible application mean?  Some would say "come on! instead of using H and shift-H in Facebook app to browse posts, you use J and K, big deal!" But that's a big deal, because keyboard shortcuts are far from consistent.  Instead of screen reader shortcuts which can be somewhat standard and usable in most Desktop applications, web designers working on web applications feel like creating shortcuts that don't always make sense for screen reader users. Some conflicts with screen reader operations.  Some are just strange.  A user on this list asked if they could find an "accessible Facebook client".  Others said "Facebook is accessible".  While I agree 9I do use Facebook myself) I would tend to agree with the original poster: a web application is just not as simple as, say, a nice tree view with recent posts when you can just press the right-arrow to see the comments, or reactions, and press the application key to like, love, comment yourself.  I don't mean to critize Facebook here: they did a good job or creating such an application.  And I've seen much more problematic in terms of web apps.  I just want to point out there's a significant difference between a web application and desktop application in terms of accessibility.


So the answer to this thread, for me, would be "no".  Web applications are manageable.  They're not as accessible as a Desktop application for us.  And, might I say it, I doubt they ever will.  But let's remain optimistic here: there might be ways to improve global web applications on a screen reader level, not on an individual level.  Gmail is often quoted as being one of the best web application out there, regarding accessibility.  And frankly I really like it.  I would use it, but... yeah, I still use Thunderbird, just because some keyboard shortcuts feel awkward and I have other accounts that are not fortunate enough to use Gmail.  So perhaps I'm mistaken and web applications can and should improve.  In which case, perhaps we should just discuss means to bring the bad news to web designers.  I do it on an individual level when seeing a web application I can't access. But our efforts might be best invested in a group or something similar.


So, if this post is not too much frowned upon by NVDA moderators (I guess it could just be considered off-topic), I would really appreciate your thoughts on that.


Thanks in advance,


Vincent



.


Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...>
 

I definitely agree. Learning to use standard keyboard commands will get you by in 99% of situations. Pass through is one of those, and I learned it with JAWS years before I started using NVDA.


Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...>
 

I think it's not whether you don't want to memorize web pages to a detailed extent. After years of repeated use you'll do so even if you don't want to.

    For instance, take WordPress. I decided to try something new and put one of my blogs on a different system for a while. However, I didn't know how to do anything because I really wasn't used to it. I did learn the basics, posting etc, but it has a whole different way of adding themes,and plugins than WP does. You have to build what they call "forms." It wasn't that it was inaccessible, I just was used to WP, so that's what I went back to.


Robert Logue
 

1: Is it difficult for users to script NVDA for web applications?


2: Is there a standard way to customize what is spoken?


3: Does NVDA have a way to set up individual profiles for each web application?


Thanks.


Bob


On 2019-10-07 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
So, how do you skip all that?  I don't use GMail on the Internet except to look at the spam filter now and then.  I am not familiar with the supplied short cuts.  But any time you want to jump from message to message, typing x in browse mode takes you to the check box for the next message.  You hear, as I recall, the subject line and the name of the sender. 
 
But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.
 
The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.  What is the last consistent line before the message text, or the synopsis, begins?  Find it by looking from the check box down on more than one message.  You will see a pattern.
Do a search for that line and you can then do the following:
x to move to the next message.
Repeat search, you have already searched once by entering the search string, then down arrow once and read to end.
After you do this enough to have it become second nature, it will be reasonably fast and efficient.
 
You can't be a good Internet user in more complex areas of a web page if you rely on what I refer to as "the kindness of strangers.", as is famously said by a character in A Street Car Named Desire.
 
The number of blind people, even those who are generally good computer users, who don't know how to do what I'm describing is clear evidence of the inadequate and poor training received.
 
I don't use web applications enough to discuss the general questions presented here, but GMail isn't a web application in the sense that Google Docx (spelling) is.  It is a layout but you aren't working with an application embedded in the page.
 
And you will see lots of times when doing things such as I describe is important for efficient navigation.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

On no, it says “Reply, reply all, forward…” all that, even if you use the keyboard commands to move to the next or previous message.

> On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@...> wrote:
>
> There's no reason to leave out normal header information. In other words, the sender, date, time, and the fact that it's from you. If it's like the IP you're referring to, then that's different.
>
>
>




Damien Garwood
 

Hi Robert,
Those are actually very interesting questions. I have theories, but that's all they are. I'm sure someone who is more expert on this topic will correct me if it turns out I'm wrong, which I'm sure I probably am.
The simple answer first. Announcements for several document elements (table headers, clickable items, links, headings etc) can be enabled or disabled through the document formatting section of the settings dialog. Other than that, the only way to really customise what is spoken by NVDA (such as changing control type text, changing spoken order etc) is through scripting.
Now for my theories. Scripting web app enhancements with NVDA wouldn't be as simple as making an app module for several reasons.
1. NVDA has its own internal stuff that allows it to do its browse/focus mode thing. This could interfere with web apps that you might think can be scripted as app modules (those packaged as executables like Skype and so on).
2. The web browser is just a host for the app, and so I'm guessing NVDA can't get to it the same way it gets to a standard desktop control. Even apps packaged as their own executables like Skype are actually using Chrome/Chromium/whatever it's called these days.
3. Bear in mind that different browsers have different rules for rendering controls and information, and so unfortunately it wouldn't be a uniform process.
Having said that. There are several accessibility API's that NVDA has, over the years, managed to smack under one umbrella. So I'm guessing that's only a matter of time before the same can be done for web browsers, and eventually, web apps.
As for profiles. My guess is that those can be used in the normal way for web apps that come as executables, but would be difficult to set up for external websites, for similar reasons. The profile would be triggered by the browser, not the app itself.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 12/10/2019 07:21 pm, Robert Logue wrote:
1: Is it difficult for users to script NVDA for web applications?
2: Is there a standard way to customize what is spoken?
3: Does NVDA have a way to set up individual profiles for each web application?
Thanks.
Bob
On 2019-10-07 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
So, how do you skip all that?  I don't use GMail on the Internet except to look at the spam filter now and then.  I am not familiar with the supplied short cuts.  But any time you want to jump from message to message, typing x in browse mode takes you to the check box for the next message.  You hear, as I recall, the subject line and the name of the sender.
But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training materials being widely used.
The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused feature.  What is the last consistent line before the message text, or the synopsis, begins?  Find it by looking from the check box down on more than one message.  You will see a pattern.
Do a search for that line and you can then do the following:
x to move to the next message.
Repeat search, you have already searched once by entering the search string, then down arrow once and read to end.
After you do this enough to have it become second nature, it will be reasonably fast and efficient.
You can't be a good Internet user in more complex areas of a web page if you rely on what I refer to as "the kindness of strangers.", as is famously said by a character in A Street Car Named Desire.
The number of blind people, even those who are generally good computer users, who don't know how to do what I'm describing is clear evidence of the inadequate and poor training received.
I don't use web applications enough to discuss the general questions presented here, but GMail isn't a web application in the sense that Google Docx (spelling) is.  It is a layout but you aren't working with an application embedded in the page.
And you will see lots of times when doing things such as I describe is important for efficient navigation.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Devin Prater <mailto:r.d.t.prater@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2019 8:44 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

On no, it says “Reply, reply all, forward…” all that, even if you use the keyboard commands to move to the next or previous message.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@gmail.com
<mailto:hopeisjoyful@gmail.com>> wrote:

There's no reason to leave out normal header information. In other
words, the sender, date, time, and the fact that it's from you. If it's like the IP you're referring to, then that's different.




Sean Murphy
 

If the web app you are using is independent of a browser. In other word is self-contained browser like skype, Visual Code Editor and others. Then what is available to you is very restrictive. As the screen reader is fully dependent on what is revealed by this style of app via the accessibility framework like UIA, MSAA or iaccess2. If you cannot write a plugin, then you will have very limited access to available information.

If the app is usable in any browser, then you have more flexibility and there are extension based upon Javascript that permits you to modify the web page. You require knowledge in JavaScript languages to modify the page.

A general overview how web pages regardless if they are stand-alone apps or uses any web browser work:
* the web page is loaded.
* The DOM is populated (Document Object Model).
* the accessibility tree of the browser is populated which has the required information for a assistive technology product.
* The accessibility API (framework) like UIA is populated by the browser.
* the screen reader then interrogates the accessibility API or the browser directly.
There is more complexity to what I have outlined above. But this gives a general overview how information flows.


NVDA might be able to get more information but you need to learn python, the accessibility API and possibly a bunch of other API information to get the information you want. A major learning curve for yourself. Where it would be far cost effective for your energy and time to reach out to the owner of the product to make the require changes.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Damien Garwood
Sent: Sunday, 13 October 2019 7:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

Hi Robert,
Those are actually very interesting questions. I have theories, but that's all they are. I'm sure someone who is more expert on this topic will correct me if it turns out I'm wrong, which I'm sure I probably am.
The simple answer first. Announcements for several document elements (table headers, clickable items, links, headings etc) can be enabled or disabled through the document formatting section of the settings dialog.
Other than that, the only way to really customise what is spoken by NVDA (such as changing control type text, changing spoken order etc) is through scripting.
Now for my theories. Scripting web app enhancements with NVDA wouldn't be as simple as making an app module for several reasons.
1. NVDA has its own internal stuff that allows it to do its browse/focus mode thing. This could interfere with web apps that you might think can be scripted as app modules (those packaged as executables like Skype and so on).
2. The web browser is just a host for the app, and so I'm guessing NVDA can't get to it the same way it gets to a standard desktop control. Even apps packaged as their own executables like Skype are actually using Chrome/Chromium/whatever it's called these days.
3. Bear in mind that different browsers have different rules for rendering controls and information, and so unfortunately it wouldn't be a uniform process.
Having said that. There are several accessibility API's that NVDA has, over the years, managed to smack under one umbrella. So I'm guessing that's only a matter of time before the same can be done for web browsers, and eventually, web apps.
As for profiles. My guess is that those can be used in the normal way for web apps that come as executables, but would be difficult to set up for external websites, for similar reasons. The profile would be triggered by the browser, not the app itself.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 12/10/2019 07:21 pm, Robert Logue wrote:
1: Is it difficult for users to script NVDA for web applications?


2: Is there a standard way to customize what is spoken?


3: Does NVDA have a way to set up individual profiles for each web
application?


Thanks.


Bob


On 2019-10-07 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
So, how do you skip all that? I don't use GMail on the Internet
except to look at the spam filter now and then. I am not familiar
with the supplied short cuts. But any time you want to jump from
message to message, typing x in browse mode takes you to the check
box for the next message. You hear, as I recall, the subject line
and the name of the sender.
But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that
they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training
materials being widely used.
The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused
feature. What is the last consistent line before the message text,
or the synopsis, begins? Find it by looking from the check box down
on more than one message. You will see a pattern.
Do a search for that line and you can then do the following:
x to move to the next message.
Repeat search, you have already searched once by entering the search
string, then down arrow once and read to end.
After you do this enough to have it become second nature, it will be
reasonably fast and efficient.
You can't be a good Internet user in more complex areas of a web page
if you rely on what I refer to as "the kindness of strangers.", as is
famously said by a character in A Street Car Named Desire.
The number of blind people, even those who are generally good
computer users, who don't know how to do what I'm describing is clear
evidence of the inadequate and poor training received.
I don't use web applications enough to discuss the general questions
presented here, but GMail isn't a web application in the sense that
Google Docx (spelling) is. It is a layout but you aren't working
with an application embedded in the page.
And you will see lots of times when doing things such as I describe
is important for efficient navigation.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Devin Prater <mailto:r.d.t.prater@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2019 8:44 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

On no, it says “Reply, reply all, forward…” all that, even if you use
the keyboard commands to move to the next or previous message.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@gmail.com
<mailto:hopeisjoyful@gmail.com>> wrote:

There's no reason to leave out normal header information. In other
words, the sender, date, time, and the fact that it's from you. If
it's like the IP you're referring to, then that's different.




Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...>
 

I think contacting the owner to report accessibility bugs can be done by anyone, and should be done whenever possible.  The most important reasons are that fixing the accessibility error will fix for everyone at the same time.  And the web developer will know about it.  I'm convinced that web developers don't really think about accessibility unless they are reminded that not all users have a mouse or a screen to browse the web.  So with the web developer's knowledge, updates to the web application will hopefully maintain the fix, whereas a way to script NVDA will probably not work the next time the web app updates... and web apps, as a rule, tend to update a lot and without warning or notices, which for us certainly adds to the fun.  It might not be easy to reach the web developer, but whenever possible I prefer to send a rather long and descriptive accessibility report. Sometimes it works.  Often they promise fixes that never come and I feel like sending reminders a year or so later.  Sometimes I get no answer.  But let's focus on the ones that actually update in a positive way!  Besides, I pointed out web apps are trendy these days, but accessibility is gaining some weigh too and web developers feel like they have less ground refusing their help whenever we ask them.


Vincent

On 10/13/2019 4:39 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:
If the web app you are using is independent of a browser. In other word is self-contained browser like skype, Visual Code Editor and others. Then what is available to you is very restrictive. As the screen reader is fully dependent on what is revealed by this style of app via the accessibility framework like UIA, MSAA or iaccess2. If you cannot write a plugin, then you will have very limited access to available information.

If the app is usable in any browser, then you have more flexibility and there are extension based upon Javascript that permits you to modify the web page. You require knowledge in JavaScript languages to modify the page.

A general overview how web pages regardless if they are stand-alone apps or uses any web browser work:
* the web page is loaded.
* The DOM is populated (Document Object Model).
* the accessibility tree of the browser is populated which has the required information for a assistive technology product.
* The accessibility API (framework) like UIA is populated by the browser.
* the screen reader then interrogates the accessibility API or the browser directly.
There is more complexity to what I have outlined above. But this gives a general overview how information flows.


NVDA might be able to get more information but you need to learn python, the accessibility API and possibly a bunch of other API information to get the information you want. A major learning curve for yourself. Where it would be far cost effective for your energy and time to reach out to the owner of the product to make the require changes.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Damien Garwood
Sent: Sunday, 13 October 2019 7:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

Hi Robert,
Those are actually very interesting questions. I have theories, but that's all they are. I'm sure someone who is more expert on this topic will correct me if it turns out I'm wrong, which I'm sure I probably am.
The simple answer first. Announcements for several document elements (table headers, clickable items, links, headings etc) can be enabled or disabled through the document formatting section of the settings dialog.
Other than that, the only way to really customise what is spoken by NVDA (such as changing control type text, changing spoken order etc) is through scripting.
Now for my theories. Scripting web app enhancements with NVDA wouldn't be as simple as making an app module for several reasons.
1. NVDA has its own internal stuff that allows it to do its browse/focus mode thing. This could interfere with web apps that you might think can be scripted as app modules (those packaged as executables like Skype and so on).
2. The web browser is just a host for the app, and so I'm guessing NVDA can't get to it the same way it gets to a standard desktop control. Even apps packaged as their own executables like Skype are actually using Chrome/Chromium/whatever it's called these days.
3. Bear in mind that different browsers have different rules for rendering controls and information, and so unfortunately it wouldn't be a uniform process.
Having said that. There are several accessibility API's that NVDA has, over the years, managed to smack under one umbrella. So I'm guessing that's only a matter of time before the same can be done for web browsers, and eventually, web apps.
As for profiles. My guess is that those can be used in the normal way for web apps that come as executables, but would be difficult to set up for external websites, for similar reasons. The profile would be triggered by the browser, not the app itself.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 12/10/2019 07:21 pm, Robert Logue wrote:
1: Is it difficult for users to script NVDA for web applications?


2: Is there a standard way to customize what is spoken?


3: Does NVDA have a way to set up individual profiles for each web
application?


Thanks.


Bob


On 2019-10-07 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
So, how do you skip all that? I don't use GMail on the Internet
except to look at the spam filter now and then. I am not familiar
with the supplied short cuts. But any time you want to jump from
message to message, typing x in browse mode takes you to the check
box for the next message. You hear, as I recall, the subject line
and the name of the sender.
But there are ways of skipping unwanted material and the fact that
they are not well known indicates poor training or poor training
materials being widely used.
The find command is one of the most useful but under or unused
feature. What is the last consistent line before the message text,
or the synopsis, begins? Find it by looking from the check box down
on more than one message. You will see a pattern.
Do a search for that line and you can then do the following:
x to move to the next message.
Repeat search, you have already searched once by entering the search
string, then down arrow once and read to end.
After you do this enough to have it become second nature, it will be
reasonably fast and efficient.
You can't be a good Internet user in more complex areas of a web page
if you rely on what I refer to as "the kindness of strangers.", as is
famously said by a character in A Street Car Named Desire.
The number of blind people, even those who are generally good
computer users, who don't know how to do what I'm describing is clear
evidence of the inadequate and poor training received.
I don't use web applications enough to discuss the general questions
presented here, but GMail isn't a web application in the sense that
Google Docx (spelling) is. It is a layout but you aren't working
with an application embedded in the page.
And you will see lots of times when doing things such as I describe
is important for efficient navigation.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Devin Prater <mailto:r.d.t.prater@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 07, 2019 8:44 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Are web applications that accessible?

On no, it says “Reply, reply all, forward…” all that, even if you use
the keyboard commands to move to the next or previous message.

On Oct 7, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Hope Williamson <hopeisjoyful@gmail.com
<mailto:hopeisjoyful@gmail.com>> wrote:
There's no reason to leave out normal header information. In other
words, the sender, date, time, and the fact that it's from you. If
it's like the IP you're referring to, then that's different.





 

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 04:27 AM, Vincent Le Goff wrote:
I'm convinced that web developers don't really think about accessibility unless they are reminded that not all users have a mouse or a screen to browse the web.
And it's not just web developers.   There has been great improvement in recent years in designing in accessibility, and accessibility issues are now identified in academic programs in computer science, but it will be years until programmers trained to think about accessibility as a "natural part" of programming have taken over the programming world and old code is slowly but surely replaced.

It is always worthwhile to point out accessibility issues since, as you note, some have never thought about them at all.  Consciousness raising is worth doing, if for no other reason than what may be produced in the future by those who had never had accessibility as a consideration in the past.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide