Hello. I'm a computer science student and in my class, we will soon start to program in assembly language. I have tried downloading and executing the MARS IDE, but, at least to me, it seems partially accessible, as for example, i couldn't write instructions in the text field using NVDA. Maybe I just don't know how to use the program yet, but i would be grateful if someone could help. I mean, i know I can just write code on notepad and run it in the IDE, but I think that would be a "last resort". If MARS is not an accessible way to go, could anyone suggest what could I go for instead?

 

Lorenzo

Unfortunately, Mars is not very accessible with NVDA. When I've had to do MIPS assembly programming for my degree, I've used SPIM instead. If I remember correctly, QTSpim is largely accessible, though you'll need to do a bit of jiggery-pokery with object navigation. Otherwise, it does have a CLI, though I've personally not worked with it.

Unfortunately, Mars is not very accessible with NVDA. When I've had to
do MIPS assembly programming for my degree, I've used SPIM
<https://spimsimulator.sourceforge.net/> instead. If I remember
correctly, QTSpim is largely accessible, though you'll need to do a
bit of jiggery-pokery with object navigation. Otherwise, it does have
a CLI, though I've personally not worked with it.

Doesn't really answer your question, but I program in several languages, and I always use notepad instead of the provided ide, because I have yet to find an IDE that works well enough with speech that I feel comfortable using it for development purposes.  This has been the case for me since 1986, when I first started programming.  I've never used an IDE.  I always use a text editor, then compile with command line tools.  The closest I ever got to using an I D E, was on mac OSX, their development tools were accessible enough, that I actually did use their IDE when I debugged code, or fixed already written code to change code, or started a new project from scratch, but often after getting the skeleton of the program written, I'd switch back to text edit for editing and creating code, but otherwise, a 100 percent accessible integrated development environment just doesn't exist I don't think, as there's always *something* that doesn't work as well as it should, whether it be statement completion, or compile results, I've always found those environments to be lacking in one way or another.

Obviously, there's lots of visually impaired folks that embrace, and use IDE software every day, I personally just can't find oen that suits my style of work, and is usable out of the box with a screen reader.

I can make (most) of them work with a little (or sometimes a lot) of configuring, but that's too much work for me when I can just switch to a text editor, and be done with it.

Obviously, your mileage may vary.

On 4/1/2023 9:16 AM, lorenzo FC wrote:

              Hello. I'm a computer science student and in my class, we will soon start to program in assembly language. I have tried downloading and executing the MARS IDE, but, at least to me, it seems partially accessible, as for example, i couldn't write instructions in the text field using NVDA. Maybe I just don't know how to use the program yet, but i would be grateful if someone could help. I mean, i know I can just write code on notepad and run it in the IDE, but I think that would be a "last resort". If MARS is not an accessible way to go, could anyone suggest what could I go for instead?

 

Lorenzo

You should be able to run an assembler from the command line, and use a debugger such as Gdb (or any Microsoft equivalent) to iinvestigate the execution of code.

It is my understanding that, at least for x86 processors, there are two assembly language syntaxes, and that the GNU tools use a syntax that differs from the one chosen by Intel. Of course, if it's ARM, MIPS or some other architecture that is being used in the course, then this observation isn't relevant.

On 1/4/23 17:24, Sascha Cowley via groups.io wrote:

Unfortunately, Mars is not very accessible with NVDA. When I've had to do MIPS assembly programming for my degree, I've used SPIM instead. If I remember correctly, QTSpim is largely accessible, though you'll need to do a bit of jiggery-pokery with object navigation. Otherwise, it does have a CLI, though I've personally not worked with it.

It's been years since I dealt with Assembly Code.  However, do you still
have to decode a Dump?  If so, is there a program that can be used for
this student that will have accessibility?

Dave


On 4/1/2023 6:20 PM, Jason White via groups.io wrote:

You should be able to run an assembler from the command line, and use
a debugger such as Gdb (or any Microsoft equivalent) to iinvestigate
the execution of code.

It is my understanding that, at least for x86 processors, there are
two assembly language syntaxes, and that the GNU tools use a syntax
that differs from the one chosen by Intel. Of course, if it's ARM,
MIPS or some other architecture that is being used in the course, then
this observation isn't relevant.

On 1/4/23 17:24, Sascha Cowley via groups.io wrote:

Unfortunately, Mars is not very accessible with NVDA. When I've had
to do MIPS assembly programming for my degree, I've used SPIM
<https://spimsimulator.sourceforge.net/> instead. If I remember
correctly, QTSpim is largely accessible, though you'll need to do a
bit of jiggery-pokery with object navigation. Otherwise, it does have
a CLI, though I've personally not worked with it.

On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 10:58 AM, Dave Grossoehme wrote:

I think I'd be contacting the instructor on this or the accessibility department of your school.

-
Not that both of these aren't great ideas, but I'd also not hold your breath, particularly on the instructor front.

Many instructors, even those with years of experience (in anything) have never had a blind student, and even if they have, unless it's kinda sorta recent you'll probably get a question of the form, "What do you mean, accessible?"  They're often clueless.  And this is a case where one should never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by simple ignorance.  You (generic you) may very well be the first person that's ever brought this up.

Disability services departments are, in my experience, pretty much only fluent in "mainstream assistive technology," if that.  They may know a lot about JAWS or NVDA and mostly in the context of M365 and/or the course management system the school is using, but when it comes to esoterica like with an assembly programming IDE you're likely going to get blank stares.  And I do get that.  There is no way that anyone in the AT game can possibly know about every possible niche in which something can (or cannot) be used.  When you're in a position like that it's critical that you be fluent in answering what comes through the door all the time, with at least some ability to handle less frequent, but still repeated, queries.  But you can't know everything, and the more obscure and esoteric the arena, the less likely it is you've ever even encountered it, or a query about it, in the past.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 04:45 PM, Dave Grossoehme wrote:

I was trying to get to the point of hitting all the sides that are possible. 

-
And this is the reason I thought it was a great idea, and particularly because it also often serves as a consciousness-raising moment.  All I intended, and it seems you read it that way, was to temper expectations on the part of anyone who's never done this before.

Sadly, I have experience with dealing with clueless instructors and disability services people.  And I get way, way more upset about the latter than the former (and about the people who hire those who clearly do not have the requisite skills, too).
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.

       ~ Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881

Doesn't really answer your question, but I program in several languages, and I always use notepad instead of the provided ide, because I have yet to find an IDE that works well enough with speech that I feel comfortable using it for development purposes.  This has been the case for me since 1986, when I first started programming.  I've never used an IDE.  I always use a text editor, then compile with command line tools.  The closest I ever got to using an I D E, was on mac OSX, their development tools were accessible enough, that I actually did use their IDE when I debugged code, or fixed already written code to change code, or started a new project from scratch, but often after getting the skeleton of the program written, I'd switch back to text edit for editing and creating code, but otherwise, a 100 percent accessible integrated development environment just doesn't exist I don't think, as there's always *something* that doesn't work as well as it should, whether it be statement completion, or compile results, I've always found those environments to be lacking in one way or another.

Obviously, there's lots of visually impaired folks that embrace, and use IDE software every day, I personally just can't find oen that suits my style of work, and is usable out of the box with a screen reader.

I can make (most) of them work with a little (or sometimes a lot) of configuring, but that's too much work for me when I can just switch to a text editor, and be done with it.

Obviously, your mileage may vary.

On 4/1/2023 9:16 AM, lorenzo FC wrote:

              Hello. I'm a computer science student and in my class, we will soon start to program in assembly language. I have tried downloading and executing the MARS IDE, but, at least to me, it seems partially accessible, as for example, i couldn't write instructions in the text field using NVDA. Maybe I just don't know how to use the program yet, but i would be grateful if someone could help. I mean, i know I can just write code on notepad and run it in the IDE, but I think that would be a "last resort". If MARS is not an accessible way to go, could anyone suggest what could I go for instead?

 

Lorenzo

From: lorenzo FC <comunellolorenzo@...>

Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 9:51 PM

To: Sanderson, Pete <psanderson@...>

Subject: [External Email] RES: MARS - additional information

               Hello. First, I would like to thank you a lot for your answer. When I wrote that email, i was thinking I would get no reply, taking into account that MARS is a Project that has been inactive for some years now.

               Also, thank you for your feedback, it was very useful, i did the change to use the internal text editor, and it worked!

               If you allow me, I would like to quote these emails to the people I asked about this first, including the persson I quoted in my first email.

P.S. I'm not familiar with Java, but perhaps this episode encourages me to give it a try in the future...

               Again, thank you!

Lorenzo

Lorenzo,

Since my response to you yesterday morning, I have done some research into accessibility of Java programs. I do not know your background or experience with Java or object-oriented programming but will explain it in those terms.

The MARS user interface was programmed using Swing, right from the very start of MARS development 20 years ago this spring.  The comment by the person who said "it needs to be rewritten in Swing" is incorrect. This person did not look at the source code. All the user interface code is in the Mars.Venus package. In my previous response, I listed some of the Swing classes that we used.

When I researched Swing and accessibility, I learned that all those classes implement the Accessible interface. And they did so 20 years ago - I had to use the Wayback Machine to find old Java 1.4 documentation to confirm this!  They should therefore be usable with Java Access Bridge. Most importantly, I also learned that one of the foundation Swing classes JComponent, does not implement Accessible.  

This turns out to be relevant, as I had feared, to MARS default internal text editor.  I developed that text editor, which highlights different MIPS language components, several years after the early releases of MARS. It was an extension of code developed by someone else. When I looked at its source code, I discovered that its main class JEditTextArea is a direct subclass of JComponent. So it will not interact with Java Access Bridge.

However, the original MARS internal text editor, which works with screen readers, remains available!  It is a subclass of Swing's JTextArea, which implements Accessible. To select it, go to the Settings menu and select Editor. A dialog box will pop up. There is a check box called "Use generic editor". Check that box, then the "Apply and Close" button.

To test this, I enabled Java Access Bridge on my computer, downloaded NVDA, and ran MARS. Indeed, the screen reader worked with the generic text editor but not with the default enhanced editor. The MARS menus all worked with the screen reader as well, as I expected. All of the menus and most of the menu items have keyboard shortcuts. But I was able to traverse and select using the arrow and enter keys.

That's what I've done so far, and wanted to report those results to you before going further.

I hope this helps.

______________________________

Pete Sanderson

Professor Emeritus, Computer Science

Otterbein University

From: Sanderson, Pete <psanderson@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2023 10:10 AM

To: lorenzo FC <comunellolorenzo@...>

Subject: Re: MARS

Lorenzo,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. In the 18 years since MARS was introduced, you are the first person to address this issue.

Unfortunately, I cannot give you any assurance of corrective measures. I developed most of the MARS code with some assistance from Ken Vollmar. Ken is no longer in academia; I retired 6 years ago and have not written a line of Java code since. Unless someone actively assumes responsibility for maintaining it, the August 2014 release of MARS will remain its final release.

Over the years a handful of different people have offered to take this on, but to my knowledge no one has followed through. You might check GitHub.

All major user interface components are implemented using Swing classes: JWindow, JFrame, JButton, JTextField, JTextArea, JMenu, JMenuItem, the list goes on and on and on.  

All MARS source code is bundled within the JAR file, so anyone using MARS can extract, view, modify and recompile it. And many have done so over the years.  Given that the bytecode in the JAR file was compiled nearly 9 years ago, it is possible that re-compilation under a more-current release of Java will produce favorable results.

I don't know if this will help at all, but MARS can also be used in command-line mode. Use any text editor you like to write the program, then assemble and/or run it from a command line.  Details in the Help menu (Help -> MARS -> Command) or online at https://courses.missouristate.edu/KenVollmar/MARS/Help/MarsHelpCommand.html

Sorry, that's all I can offer for now.  Best wishes.

______________________________

Pete Sanderson

Professor Emeritus, Computer Science

Otterbein University

From: lorenzo FC <comunellolorenzo@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2023 8:42 AM

To: Sanderson, Pete <psanderson@...>

Subject: [External Email] MARS

Hello. I’m a computer Science student, and in my class, we will soon start to program in assembly for MIPS architecture. And when I tried to run the program, I found out that it looks like the MARS IDE is not accessible to screen readers. I have tried using it alongside NVDA on Windows, for example, and the program is partially accessible, even with Java Access Bridge enabled.

Quoting a programmer who also identified this same issue:

"OK.  I just took a look. At mars.  I think I remember trying this in the past.  The problem is it is a Java app and it is using AWT the most inaccessible of the Java UI toolkits.  It really needs to be re-written in swing or SWT and I doubt that is going to happen."

Lorenzo

Given they were asking about MARS, which is an all-in-one MIPS IDE, simulator and debugger, I would take a punt and say they're going to be using MIPS, hence why I suggested SPIM above.