Date
1 - 20 of 21
Befuttled
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David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
Hello NVDA,
I am at a crossroads with just about everything computer-wise. The website game is becoming more confusing as weeks pass: terms like icons, dark mode, seem to have replaced buttons and or links. Secondly, some posts here reflect on occasion that one screen reader works better at something encountered than NVDA. I have been an avid NVDA user since 2005. Jaws was and is too expensive for my economic consideration. Where does one go to find either small group learning, or one on one learning opportunities? Ability Net, Entopia, and WebAim seem more community focused than perhaps patron focused. For a while, AFB (American Foundation For The Blind) was doing pretty well to keep up with online tutorials for things like GoogleDocs. Would Be My Eyes be a viable source for yours truly, a reasonable happy NVDA user? -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
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Hi David.
I have my NVDA trainer certificate. I don't yet have the certificate for NVDA and the Microsoft Office applications, but I am working on that. If you are willing to work with a fellow learner, I enjoy the challenge of answering questions simply and directly. Email me at smartwebtester@... if you'd like to talk further. Generally though, the basic training modules available from https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ are excellent, and purchasing them helps NV Access continue to develop and promote NVDA. Chris |
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Gene
Are you talking about what you hear when you move through a web page? I see no meaningful difference regarding words used for controls. Links are links, buttons are buttons, etc. Dark mode is a way you can set your browser, as I understand it. But in terms of actual browsing, you won't hear icon instead of link or instead of button or other generally used controls.
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I'm not sure what you are seeing and where that is confusing you. Can you send the address of a page that has content that confuses you? There are times when JAWS works better on a certain site but you don't need to purchase it. You can use a JAWS demo. As far as specific instructional material, I'll mostly let others discuss that. I haven't seen enough to compare. I know of material that is good but quite expensive and you may be looking for something free or low price. Gene On 11/28/2022 10:16 AM, David Russell wrote:
Hello NVDA, |
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I'm with Gene on this one. Dark mode versus light mode has no meaning for a screen reader user. It's a choice for sighted users that means, essentially, dark background with light text versus light background with dark text. And dark versus light modes have been around for quite a while now. They are, essentially, themes.
Icons have been around since the first version of windows. While certain controls have come into existence over time, "the basic set" has been just that for as long as I can remember. Part of being an effective computer user, regardless of visual status, is knowing what you can ignore. And if you pose the question, "Do I need, or use, {insert thing here}?," and the answer is either, "No," or, "I don't know," then the probability that it matters in your day to day existence is very nearly certain to be zero. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit "Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people. ~ Tom Masson |
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JM Casey
Hey David.
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I understand what you're getting at here, but take a step back and a deep breath -- you are worrying a bit over not too much here with your specific examples. Icons are just symbols. Dark mode is just a theme. You are letting the terminology gett he better of you and doing what happens to all of us as we get older -- starting to feel like things are passing us by without us even noticing until it's too late. But a lot of the time, the more things seem to change, the more they really stay the same.\ Stick around on these lists. Read the training stuff. Try things out. And try not to panic. Ask anything you like; people here will be nicea nd helpful. -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: November 28, 2022 11:17 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Befuttled Hello NVDA, I am at a crossroads with just about everything computer-wise. The website game is becoming more confusing as weeks pass: terms like icons, dark mode, seem to have replaced buttons and or links. Secondly, some posts here reflect on occasion that one screen reader works better at something encountered than NVDA. I have been an avid NVDA user since 2005. Jaws was and is too expensive for my economic consideration. Where does one go to find either small group learning, or one on one learning opportunities? Ability Net, Entopia, and WebAim seem more community focused than perhaps patron focused. For a while, AFB (American Foundation For The Blind) was doing pretty well to keep up with online tutorials for things like GoogleDocs. Would Be My Eyes be a viable source for yours truly, a reasonable happy NVDA user? -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
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Brian's Mail list account
Yes I do think the term clickable is a kind of catch all for things that are not links or buttons, but could act a bit like either or both. Is there a set definition for clickable? I mean buttons, checkboxes, radio buttons and links are just what they say. Back when I started on the web it was mainly links, then came various choice systems, ie buttons, and then forms and checkboxes and radio buttons, combo boxes, then we got submenus and lists, and then clickable.
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I've yet to see a little hook in my memory on which to hang a clickable. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <jmcasey@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2022 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Befuttled Hey David. I understand what you're getting at here, but take a step back and a deep breath -- you are worrying a bit over not too much here with your specific examples. Icons are just symbols. Dark mode is just a theme. You are letting the terminology gett he better of you and doing what happens to all of us as we get older -- starting to feel like things are passing us by without us even noticing until it's too late. But a lot of the time, the more things seem to change, the more they really stay the same.\ Stick around on these lists. Read the training stuff. Try things out. And try not to panic. Ask anything you like; people here will be nicea nd helpful. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: November 28, 2022 11:17 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Befuttled Hello NVDA, I am at a crossroads with just about everything computer-wise. The website game is becoming more confusing as weeks pass: terms like icons, dark mode, seem to have replaced buttons and or links. Secondly, some posts here reflect on occasion that one screen reader works better at something encountered than NVDA. I have been an avid NVDA user since 2005. Jaws was and is too expensive for my economic consideration. Where does one go to find either small group learning, or one on one learning opportunities? Ability Net, Entopia, and WebAim seem more community focused than perhaps patron focused. For a while, AFB (American Foundation For The Blind) was doing pretty well to keep up with online tutorials for things like GoogleDocs. Would Be My Eyes be a viable source for yours truly, a reasonable happy NVDA user? -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
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David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
Hi Everyone,
Wow, reply to group does work, horray! J.M. hit most the nail on the head. What is happening most of all that is bringing on my panic is that groups to which I belong relative to my interest in fiction writing, are or have changed the manner in which they accept story submissions for critique, and to some extent, critiques on story submissions. As I understand it, the change seems to be to click on icons that the NVDA screen reader is not able to fully recognize. In one case, and you may have to be a member, Critique Circle has a link on the main page called stories which you press enter to access. Then, you may down arrow to choices, which include submit story. As you do, you then fill out a form pertinent to the submission. After that you hit enter on either back, next continue. You down arrow to three specific form fields, that the screen reader announces as: author notes before story, something section, multiple line edit, then next field is author notes after story, and then a final field before the link, review and submit. Often text is not apparently where it needs to be when choosing to review and submit. The announced fields as above, are given one arrow click I think above the arrow field. Underneath that field are a few that say 'button' when you down arrow. I am sure there are other options such as critique groups via a listserv. Yet, one likes to stay and do business where he or she has discovered some like-minded acquaintances. I notice too that screen shots are becoming commonplace as emails to show newly made changes. In most cases, someone is happy to send a set of instructions instead when requested. Excuse my length, but hope the subject is now more clear to those who requested a bit more info. Thanks again everyone! -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... Forgiveness is the final form of love. Reinhold Niebuhr |
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So, it sounds like you need to pop in and out of Browse mode with NVDA+Space, so you can examine the form more closely.
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73, Chris VE3RWJ on qrz.com Follow Me On Twitter -----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: November 29, 2022 9:58 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] RE Befuttled Hi Everyone, Wow, reply to group does work, horray! J.M. hit most the nail on the head. What is happening most of all that is bringing on my panic is that groups to which I belong relative to my interest in fiction writing, are or have changed the manner in which they accept story submissions for critique, and to some extent, critiques on story submissions. As I understand it, the change seems to be to click on icons that the NVDA screen reader is not able to fully recognize. In one case, and you may have to be a member, Critique Circle has a link on the main page called stories which you press enter to access. Then, you may down arrow to choices, which include submit story. As you do, you then fill out a form pertinent to the submission. After that you hit enter on either back, next continue. You down arrow to three specific form fields, that the screen reader announces as: author notes before story, something section, multiple line edit, then next field is author notes after story, and then a final field before the link, review and submit. Often text is not apparently where it needs to be when choosing to review and submit. The announced fields as above, are given one arrow click I think above the arrow field. Underneath that field are a few that say 'button' when you down arrow. I am sure there are other options such as critique groups via a listserv. Yet, one likes to stay and do business where he or she has discovered some like-minded acquaintances. I notice too that screen shots are becoming commonplace as emails to show newly made changes. In most cases, someone is happy to send a set of instructions instead when requested. Excuse my length, but hope the subject is now more clear to those who requested a bit more info. Thanks again everyone! -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... Forgiveness is the final form of love. Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Gene
This message is rather long, but it may be useful.
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Wherever the text is, can you find it? Are you going in and out of focus mode and browse mode as needed? In a case like this, the text would be expected to be at the same place on the page. If you can find something that remains the same above the text, some words that don't change and don't occur at all or not often on the page. you can go to the top of the page in browse mode, then search for those unchanging words, and efficiently find the text. This is an important thing to know not just on this page but in other places where the efficient way to move is to find the same text by searching. When I look at some forum discussions, for example, above each post may be a line like replied and then a date. That is an example, I don't know if I've literally seen that. If you find something as you read posts that is above each post such as I described and search for it each time you want to move from the main text of one post to another and if you don't care who sends the post, you can move efficiently from main body to main body. To repeat the same search in NVDA, the command is NVDA key f3. Another example is the track order page in Amazon. Right above the tracking information for a something I've ordered is a line that says something like see all orders. I start at the top of the page and search for the word see. I am taken to that line. By down arrowing once, I am in the tracking information. The screen-reader find command is one of the most useful and least used commands when working on the Internet. As far as other problems clicking on things, do you know how to move to something, route the mouse to it, and then left click it using the NVDA simulated mouse There are times when you can take an action that way on a web page when enter or space don't work. Gene On 11/29/2022 8:58 AM, David Russell wrote:
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On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 03:16 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
I've yet to see a little hook in my memory on which to hang a clickable.- You're not alone in that. And this is coming from someone who can see what's got focus when "clickable" is announced. I don't blame screen reader developers for this. Web coding standards, such as they are, are always in flux because new controls of various sorts do get invented. Most die quick deaths, but many don't have names that any of us know. They must somehow expose themselves as activatable via click to the screen reader, but the screen reader really isn't offered anything more to help out. I've been called upon on more than one occasion to answer the question, "What is this thing that's called 'clickable'?," on a specific webpage. Sometimes I can give a pretty coherent answer once I see what I'm sitting on, other times, I can't. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit "Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people. ~ Tom Masson |
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JM Casey
Yeah, the tendency to do screen-shots rather than texxt cut and paste is most annoying. That's definitely a commonplace thing nowa nd it's not going away. Best you can do is use your oCR software to make something of it. At least it's screenshots we're talking about a nd not, well, a picture ofa book or album cover or somethin. Try as I might I've never been able to get any decent oCR results, and have to ask the people (usually in discord servers) what the hell they've posted.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: November 29, 2022 09:58 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] RE Befuttled Hi Everyone, Wow, reply to group does work, horray! J.M. hit most the nail on the head. What is happening most of all that is bringing on my panic is that groups to which I belong relative to my interest in fiction writing, are or have changed the manner in which they accept story submissions for critique, and to some extent, critiques on story submissions. As I understand it, the change seems to be to click on icons that the NVDA screen reader is not able to fully recognize. In one case, and you may have to be a member, Critique Circle has a link on the main page called stories which you press enter to access. Then, you may down arrow to choices, which include submit story. As you do, you then fill out a form pertinent to the submission. After that you hit enter on either back, next continue. You down arrow to three specific form fields, that the screen reader announces as: author notes before story, something section, multiple line edit, then next field is author notes after story, and then a final field before the link, review and submit. Often text is not apparently where it needs to be when choosing to review and submit. The announced fields as above, are given one arrow click I think above the arrow field. Underneath that field are a few that say 'button' when you down arrow. I am sure there are other options such as critique groups via a listserv. Yet, one likes to stay and do business where he or she has discovered some like-minded acquaintances. I notice too that screen shots are becoming commonplace as emails to show newly made changes. In most cases, someone is happy to send a set of instructions instead when requested. Excuse my length, but hope the subject is now more clear to those who requested a bit more info. Thanks again everyone! -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... Forgiveness is the final form of love. Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Brian's Mail list account
Yes and this shows how easy it is to make a user click away with frustration, merely because access was not designed in. I have just been asked, not for the first time, by a local council to help them test their new simple forms. They seem to every single time forget what they learned the last time. My feeling is that somebody has decided to use a new whizzbang form designer, and has not looked at it from different types of users perspective.
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Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <ve3rwj@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2022 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] RE Befuttled So, it sounds like you need to pop in and out of Browse mode with NVDA+Space, so you can examine the form more closely. 73, Chris VE3RWJ on qrz.com Follow Me On Twitter -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: November 29, 2022 9:58 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] RE Befuttled Hi Everyone, Wow, reply to group does work, horray! J.M. hit most the nail on the head. What is happening most of all that is bringing on my panic is that groups to which I belong relative to my interest in fiction writing, are or have changed the manner in which they accept story submissions for critique, and to some extent, critiques on story submissions. As I understand it, the change seems to be to click on icons that the NVDA screen reader is not able to fully recognize. In one case, and you may have to be a member, Critique Circle has a link on the main page called stories which you press enter to access. Then, you may down arrow to choices, which include submit story. As you do, you then fill out a form pertinent to the submission. After that you hit enter on either back, next continue. You down arrow to three specific form fields, that the screen reader announces as: author notes before story, something section, multiple line edit, then next field is author notes after story, and then a final field before the link, review and submit. Often text is not apparently where it needs to be when choosing to review and submit. The announced fields as above, are given one arrow click I think above the arrow field. Underneath that field are a few that say 'button' when you down arrow. I am sure there are other options such as critique groups via a listserv. Yet, one likes to stay and do business where he or she has discovered some like-minded acquaintances. I notice too that screen shots are becoming commonplace as emails to show newly made changes. In most cases, someone is happy to send a set of instructions instead when requested. Excuse my length, but hope the subject is now more clear to those who requested a bit more info. Thanks again everyone! -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... Forgiveness is the final form of love. Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Brian's Mail list account
Agreed. They should in an accessible world have an alt tag and a link to the actual thing they are attempting to explain by the screenshot.
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The thing I hate most is when they write underneath, as you can see from the screenshot, it is simple to achieve. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <jmcasey@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2022 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Befuttled Yeah, the tendency to do screen-shots rather than texxt cut and paste is most annoying. That's definitely a commonplace thing nowa nd it's not going away. Best you can do is use your oCR software to make something of it. At least it's screenshots we're talking about a nd not, well, a picture ofa book or album cover or somethin. Try as I might I've never been able to get any decent oCR results, and have to ask the people (usually in discord servers) what the hell they've posted. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Russell Sent: November 29, 2022 09:58 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] RE Befuttled Hi Everyone, Wow, reply to group does work, horray! J.M. hit most the nail on the head. What is happening most of all that is bringing on my panic is that groups to which I belong relative to my interest in fiction writing, are or have changed the manner in which they accept story submissions for critique, and to some extent, critiques on story submissions. As I understand it, the change seems to be to click on icons that the NVDA screen reader is not able to fully recognize. In one case, and you may have to be a member, Critique Circle has a link on the main page called stories which you press enter to access. Then, you may down arrow to choices, which include submit story. As you do, you then fill out a form pertinent to the submission. After that you hit enter on either back, next continue. You down arrow to three specific form fields, that the screen reader announces as: author notes before story, something section, multiple line edit, then next field is author notes after story, and then a final field before the link, review and submit. Often text is not apparently where it needs to be when choosing to review and submit. The announced fields as above, are given one arrow click I think above the arrow field. Underneath that field are a few that say 'button' when you down arrow. I am sure there are other options such as critique groups via a listserv. Yet, one likes to stay and do business where he or she has discovered some like-minded acquaintances. I notice too that screen shots are becoming commonplace as emails to show newly made changes. In most cases, someone is happy to send a set of instructions instead when requested. Excuse my length, but hope the subject is now more clear to those who requested a bit more info. Thanks again everyone! -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... Forgiveness is the final form of love. Reinhold Niebuhr |
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David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
Hello NVDA,
OK, I get the first step after going to a given writing website: go to browse mode with nvda-spacebar, which for my computer is either the control key or capslock key. Gene, you seem to be suggesting two possible methods or approaches. Use the find command, or hit control-home and tab through the top of the page. I will re-read again. I am a little gun shy at the moment as my main desire is tell me this given platform will work the way as expected instead of becoming a big frickin headache! Thanks to each of you. My deep breath as recommended may be a 24-hour break from it all. Best, -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... |
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Gene
I can't comment on the platform you are working with and if it is restricted, what is involved in joining it. Perhaps I and others will join. Whether the site is set up in a way that my discussion will help you use it or not, what I told you is of use on various sites.
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You don't have to go into browse mode on every web site. On web sites in general, you are automatically in browse mode when the page loads. I'm saying that if you can't move around using the arrow keys on a site, check to see if you are in browse mode or focus mode. If you can't move around and you use the command NVDA space and then you can move around, you are now in browse mode. If there is some problem with the site and you can't enter text in an edit field. check to see if you are in focus mode. One thing that may make this harder to know is the, what I consider very bad default behavior of NVDA. It plays two different sounds, one that tells you if you are in browse mode and another that tells you when you are in focus mode. I strongly believe that for inexperienced Internet users, this information should be spoken. You can change an NVDA setting so it is spoken. Open the browse mode dialog, NVDA key control b. Tab around to audio indication of browse and focus mode. If it is checked, uncheck it with the space bar, then press enter. Gene On 11/30/2022 8:10 AM, David Russell wrote:
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David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
Hello Gene and others,
The primary website, restricted to premium or basic level members, may be a major inconvenience if you join to solely help me out with my issue. I may ask, but seriously doubt, that there is another blind member of this given site since the issue of submitting a story has been ongoing for months. I assume focus mode is for use when text cannot be submitted in browse mode, or somehow focus mode overrides a given roadblock to accessibility enjoyed by sighted peers. Is this near correct understanding? I see Brian's interest in the term 'clickable' as this too is used at the writing site under question; I simply press the enter key on the choice wanted to review stories or participate in forums. Overall, the sites I am experiencing this issue require registration and membership to be a participant. They require engaging with others first before you can submit something that others will engage with you. Credits are earned each time you engage until you arrive at a total then allowing you to submit. Thanks, and I apologize for prolonging this topic. This will be likely my last entry on the matter. Thanks! -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... Forgiveness is the final form of love. Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Nermin
Hi David,
it would be much easier if you had NVDA Remote. That way someone could try to do a one-on-one session with you and help you with the website in question. If the registration is free, people could even have a go at it to familiarise themselves with the site. Anyhting else is guesswork. Browse mode is just that, a mode that lets you browse a website or web document without necessarily interacting with its elements. It cannot help you to submit anything, as in, you cannot type into edit fields using a website. It is there to let you read its content, nothing else. Focus mode, however, will let you type into edit boxes, manipulate checkboxes, select things from a list, and so on. Regards, Nermin |
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Gene
When you use Browse Mode, you are not working directly with the web page. The page is reformatted for logical reading order by screen-readers and there are some things you can't do such as write in edit fields and work in combo boxes. NVDA, if you move in certain ways, automatically switches between browse mode and focus mode by default. I don't use the automatic switching and I won't discuss that further because I don't know the details well.
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If you are in an edit field and you are placing text in it, you are in focus mode, working directly with the web page. You can tab and shift tab in focus mode but you can't move with the arrow keys. You can press the space bar on buttons in browse mode and on radio buttons to select the one you want but for writing in edit fields, you have to be in focus mode. Gene On 11/30/2022 3:25 PM, David Russell wrote:
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Gene
That isn't completely accurate. You can press the space bar to check and uncheck check boxes in browse mode. You can select a radio button with the space bar in browse mode and you can activate buttons. Obviously, you can follow links in browse mode.
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The things I recall that you can't do are write in edit fields or edit what is there and work with combo boxes. If there are other things you must be in focus mode to do, I can't think of them now. Gene On 11/30/2022 3:35 PM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
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Nermin
Hi Gene,
I just wanted to simplify things a bit, and I'm well aware that you can manipulate checkboxes being in browse mode. But one step at a time... Regards, Nermin |
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