Topics

Calling All Object Navigation Experts!

 

As I am not one, and am trying to determine whether I'm doing something wrong or if Macrium Reflect is actually inaccessible even though I can get focus on what is a control for me as a sighted person.

If anyone believes a conversation can be had about this here on the group I'd be happy to have it.   If anyone wants to offer assistance to me via NVDA remote, Quick Assist, or TeamViewer, that would be fine, too.

I eventually need to "wrap my head around" object navigation and also be able to tell whether something is inaccessible or if I've probably made a bone headed mistake.  Right now I can object navigate to the control I'm looking to work with, but cannot seem to activate it.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Jackie
 

Hi, Brian V. Once you've object navigated to a control, have you tried
NVDA+shift+m (laptop) or NVDA+numpad-divide (desktop) to bring your
mouse there? At that point hopefully you can do a left click on the
object to activate it, or possibly an object activation command (NVDA
numpad enter on desktop, NVDA enter on laptop).

I'll help in any way I can if that doesn't resolve your difficulties.

On 1/10/19, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
As I am not one, and am trying to determine whether I'm doing something
wrong or if Macrium Reflect is actually inaccessible even though I can get
focus on what is a control for me as a sighted person.

If anyone believes a conversation can be had about this here on the group
I'd be happy to have it.   If anyone wants to offer assistance to me via
NVDA remote, Quick Assist, or TeamViewer, that would be fine, too.

I eventually need to "wrap my head around" object navigation and also be
able to tell whether something is inaccessible or if I've probably made a
bone headed mistake.  Right now I can object navigate to the control I'm
looking to work with, but cannot seem to activate it.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
illusion is deep.*

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back




--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
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Jackie,

            I have tried the object navigation command - no dice; NVDA says "No Action."  The control itself is visually presented as a link.  If I use the Report Current Object command (NVDA+NumPad5), it says, "Clone this disc, text, read only."

            I just tried the route mouse to navigator object command, followed by the NVDA left click command and also using the actual left click on my mouse pad, an this works!

            I find it utterly bizarre how NVDA navigates through the pane in question.  I get focus on what is the first control at the top, and use the navigate to next object and there is "no next."  But if I use navigate to previous object it starts going through controls lower down on the page, which is entirely counterintuitive.  Of course, I'm quite sure this is dependent on the code that NVDA is dealing with in Macrium, as opposed to NVDA itself.

             What's even weirder, and this wasn't happening earlier, is that I cannot consistently "object navigate" the Macrium Reflect window.  If I fire up the program after searching for it, then ALT+TAB to the window, NVDA tells me nothing at all once I have focus on it.  If I hit ALT to make focus go to the menus I do get reports on that, but afterward I still can't seem to object navigate to the panes, and I could swear I had done it that way earlier this morning.

              Object Navigation will keep becoming a much bigger deal with time.  I think that the battle to get developers to understand accessibility under this paradigm is going to be a challenge.

               Thank you very much for your assistance.  I'll report back as additional time for experimentation allows.

            

            
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

 

Hi,

For cases like this, I recommend using Focus Highlight add-on (if you aren’t using it yet), as that one helps folks with testing object navigation related things and such (there is a research project to bring that to NVDA directly, but too early to talk about the details yet).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 9:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!

 

Jackie,

            I have tried the object navigation command - no dice; NVDA says "No Action."  The control itself is visually presented as a link.  If I use the Report Current Object command (NVDA+NumPad5), it says, "Clone this disc, text, read only."

            I just tried the route mouse to navigator object command, followed by the NVDA left click command and also using the actual left click on my mouse pad, an this works!

            I find it utterly bizarre how NVDA navigates through the pane in question.  I get focus on what is the first control at the top, and use the navigate to next object and there is "no next."  But if I use navigate to previous object it starts going through controls lower down on the page, which is entirely counterintuitive.  Of course, I'm quite sure this is dependent on the code that NVDA is dealing with in Macrium, as opposed to NVDA itself.

             What's even weirder, and this wasn't happening earlier, is that I cannot consistently "object navigate" the Macrium Reflect window.  If I fire up the program after searching for it, then ALT+TAB to the window, NVDA tells me nothing at all once I have focus on it.  If I hit ALT to make focus go to the menus I do get reports on that, but afterward I still can't seem to object navigate to the panes, and I could swear I had done it that way earlier this morning.

              Object Navigation will keep becoming a much bigger deal with time.  I think that the battle to get developers to understand accessibility under this paradigm is going to be a challenge.

               Thank you very much for your assistance.  I'll report back as additional time for experimentation allows.

            

            
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Brian's Mail list account
 

I generally find that nvda/keypad enter works on most dodgy controls, however to even need to use this kind of navigation means that the controls are not being seen in any standard way or nvda would just work with them as is.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 3:59 PM
Subject: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!


As I am not one, and am trying to determine whether I'm doing something wrong or if Macrium Reflect is actually inaccessible even though I can get focus on what is a control for me as a sighted person.

If anyone believes a conversation can be had about this here on the group I'd be happy to have it. If anyone wants to offer assistance to me via NVDA remote, Quick Assist, or TeamViewer, that would be fine, too.

I eventually need to "wrap my head around" object navigation and also be able to tell whether something is inaccessible or if I've probably made a bone headed mistake. Right now I can object navigate to the control I'm looking to work with, but cannot seem to activate it.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

Brian's Mail list account
 

I agree. Until developers grasp the nettle and begin to design access in you will get silly situations like this one. I've found many places when you get buttons navigating and the action to press them only works with a mouse. Its ridiculous.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!


Jackie,

I have tried the object navigation command - no dice; NVDA says "No Action." The control itself is visually presented as a link. If I use the Report Current Object command (NVDA+NumPad5), it says, "Clone this disc, text, read only."

I just tried the route mouse to navigator object command, followed by the NVDA left click command and also using the actual left click on my mouse pad, an this works!

I find it utterly bizarre how NVDA navigates through the pane in question. I get focus on what is the first control at the top, and use the navigate to next object and there is "no next." But if I use navigate to previous object it starts going through controls lower down on the page, which is entirely counterintuitive. Of course, I'm quite sure this is dependent on the code that NVDA is dealing with in Macrium, as opposed to NVDA itself.

What's even weirder, and this wasn't happening earlier, is that I cannot consistently "object navigate" the Macrium Reflect window. If I fire up the program after searching for it, then ALT+TAB to the window, NVDA tells me nothing at all once I have focus on it. If I hit ALT to make focus go to the menus I do get reports on that, but afterward I still can't seem to object navigate to the panes, and I could swear I had done it that way earlier this morning.

Object Navigation will keep becoming a much bigger deal with time. I think that the battle to get developers to understand accessibility under this paradigm is going to be a challenge.

Thank you very much for your assistance. I'll report back as additional time for experimentation allows.




--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

Jackie
 

Be sure to always maximize the window, Brian V, but, having thus said,
sometimes--indeed most of the time--that isn't always very helpful.
It's a real pita when programs are like that.

On 1/10/19, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
I agree. Until developers grasp the nettle and begin to design access in you

will get silly situations like this one. I've found many places when you get

buttons navigating and the action to press them only works with a mouse. Its

ridiculous.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!


Jackie,

I have tried the object navigation command - no dice; NVDA says "No Action."

The control itself is visually presented as a link. If I use the Report
Current Object command (NVDA+NumPad5), it says, "Clone this disc, text, read

only."

I just tried the route mouse to navigator object command, followed by the
NVDA left click command and also using the actual left click on my mouse
pad, an this works!

I find it utterly bizarre how NVDA navigates through the pane in question. I

get focus on what is the first control at the top, and use the navigate to
next object and there is "no next." But if I use navigate to previous object

it starts going through controls lower down on the page, which is entirely
counterintuitive. Of course, I'm quite sure this is dependent on the code
that NVDA is dealing with in Macrium, as opposed to NVDA itself.

What's even weirder, and this wasn't happening earlier, is that I cannot
consistently "object navigate" the Macrium Reflect window. If I fire up the

program after searching for it, then ALT+TAB to the window, NVDA tells me
nothing at all once I have focus on it. If I hit ALT to make focus go to the

menus I do get reports on that, but afterward I still can't seem to object
navigate to the panes, and I could swear I had done it that way earlier this

morning.

Object Navigation will keep becoming a much bigger deal with time. I think
that the battle to get developers to understand accessibility under this
paradigm is going to be a challenge.

Thank you very much for your assistance. I'll report back as additional time

for experimentation allows.




--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for

illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back








--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brighter-vision.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com

Jackie
 

PS--you might wanna consider the Golden Cursor addon to see if you can
save mouse hotspots for navigation. Obviously, since you're sighted,
you yourself won't need that, but perhaps a student of yours down the
line might.

On 1/10/19, Jackie McBride <abletec@...> wrote:
Be sure to always maximize the window, Brian V, but, having thus said,
sometimes--indeed most of the time--that isn't always very helpful.
It's a real pita when programs are like that.

On 1/10/19, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
I agree. Until developers grasp the nettle and begin to design access in
you

will get silly situations like this one. I've found many places when you
get

buttons navigating and the action to press them only works with a mouse.
Its

ridiculous.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!


Jackie,

I have tried the object navigation command - no dice; NVDA says "No
Action."

The control itself is visually presented as a link. If I use the Report
Current Object command (NVDA+NumPad5), it says, "Clone this disc, text,
read

only."

I just tried the route mouse to navigator object command, followed by the
NVDA left click command and also using the actual left click on my mouse
pad, an this works!

I find it utterly bizarre how NVDA navigates through the pane in question.
I

get focus on what is the first control at the top, and use the navigate
to
next object and there is "no next." But if I use navigate to previous
object

it starts going through controls lower down on the page, which is
entirely
counterintuitive. Of course, I'm quite sure this is dependent on the code
that NVDA is dealing with in Macrium, as opposed to NVDA itself.

What's even weirder, and this wasn't happening earlier, is that I cannot
consistently "object navigate" the Macrium Reflect window. If I fire up
the

program after searching for it, then ALT+TAB to the window, NVDA tells me
nothing at all once I have focus on it. If I hit ALT to make focus go to
the

menus I do get reports on that, but afterward I still can't seem to
object
navigate to the panes, and I could swear I had done it that way earlier
this

morning.

Object Navigation will keep becoming a much bigger deal with time. I
think
that the battle to get developers to understand accessibility under this
paradigm is going to be a challenge.

Thank you very much for your assistance. I'll report back as additional
time

for experimentation allows.




--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need
for

illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back








--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brighter-vision.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com

--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brighter-vision.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com

Peter Beasley
 

What are we suppoled to do when we hear something like graphic wrecked angle contains link?

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 January 2019 17:03
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!

 

Hi,

For cases like this, I recommend using Focus Highlight add-on (if you aren’t using it yet), as that one helps folks with testing object navigation related things and such (there is a research project to bring that to NVDA directly, but too early to talk about the details yet).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 9:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!

 

Jackie,

            I have tried the object navigation command - no dice; NVDA says "No Action."  The control itself is visually presented as a link.  If I use the Report Current Object command (NVDA+NumPad5), it says, "Clone this disc, text, read only."

            I just tried the route mouse to navigator object command, followed by the NVDA left click command and also using the actual left click on my mouse pad, an this works!

            I find it utterly bizarre how NVDA navigates through the pane in question.  I get focus on what is the first control at the top, and use the navigate to next object and there is "no next."  But if I use navigate to previous object it starts going through controls lower down on the page, which is entirely counterintuitive.  Of course, I'm quite sure this is dependent on the code that NVDA is dealing with in Macrium, as opposed to NVDA itself.

             What's even weirder, and this wasn't happening earlier, is that I cannot consistently "object navigate" the Macrium Reflect window.  If I fire up the program after searching for it, then ALT+TAB to the window, NVDA tells me nothing at all once I have focus on it.  If I hit ALT to make focus go to the menus I do get reports on that, but afterward I still can't seem to object navigate to the panes, and I could swear I had done it that way earlier this morning.

              Object Navigation will keep becoming a much bigger deal with time.  I think that the battle to get developers to understand accessibility under this paradigm is going to be a challenge.

               Thank you very much for your assistance.  I'll report back as additional time for experimentation allows.

            

            
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

 

 

Hi,

Short of revisiting graphics labeler issue on GitHub (yes, there is such an issue at the moment), I advise contacting the app vendor about unlabeled graphics. If they say they’ll fix it, great; if not, let us (NVDA developers) know so we can try reproducing it (provided that we get some developer info about the control in question by pressing NVDA+F1).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Peter Beasley
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 9:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!

 

What are we suppoled to do when we hear something like graphic wrecked angle contains link?

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 January 2019 17:03
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!

 

Hi,

For cases like this, I recommend using Focus Highlight add-on (if you aren’t using it yet), as that one helps folks with testing object navigation related things and such (there is a research project to bring that to NVDA directly, but too early to talk about the details yet).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 9:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Calling All Object Navigation Experts!

 

Jackie,

            I have tried the object navigation command - no dice; NVDA says "No Action."  The control itself is visually presented as a link.  If I use the Report Current Object command (NVDA+NumPad5), it says, "Clone this disc, text, read only."

            I just tried the route mouse to navigator object command, followed by the NVDA left click command and also using the actual left click on my mouse pad, an this works!

            I find it utterly bizarre how NVDA navigates through the pane in question.  I get focus on what is the first control at the top, and use the navigate to next object and there is "no next."  But if I use navigate to previous object it starts going through controls lower down on the page, which is entirely counterintuitive.  Of course, I'm quite sure this is dependent on the code that NVDA is dealing with in Macrium, as opposed to NVDA itself.

             What's even weirder, and this wasn't happening earlier, is that I cannot consistently "object navigate" the Macrium Reflect window.  If I fire up the program after searching for it, then ALT+TAB to the window, NVDA tells me nothing at all once I have focus on it.  If I hit ALT to make focus go to the menus I do get reports on that, but afterward I still can't seem to object navigate to the panes, and I could swear I had done it that way earlier this morning.

              Object Navigation will keep becoming a much bigger deal with time.  I think that the battle to get developers to understand accessibility under this paradigm is going to be a challenge.

               Thank you very much for your assistance.  I'll report back as additional time for experimentation allows.

            

            
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

 

 

Joseph,

            I have used Focus Highlight almost since the first day I heard about it.  It makes life infinitely easier for myself or any sighted assistant when someone is using the screen reader.  As has already become obvious just in this topic, "where the screen reader goes next" is very often not at all where a sighted person would think it should based on how a page is visually laid out and would be visually scanned (and traveled) by someone who sees.

Brian G,

            The thing is that "how things have worked" is definitely not how things are going to continue working.  Object navigation as a part of the mix of standard access methods is only going to be on the increase.  Even if everything were 100% accessible, it's not necessarily going to be accessible in the manner than any of us here have traditionally been used to.

            There is nothing so constant as change, and nowhere is change more constant, and often more sweeping, than in the world of computers.

Jackie,

             I've used Golden Cursor, but it's really only useful once you've established what's actually present and where it's present.  As you've also noted, it depends on a window being maximized as this is the only way on a given machine, or another with precisely the same resolution, for the position to be consistent.

             I'm constantly trying to figure out how to do the standard kind of exploring with a screen reader that I do visually.  True independence in using a computer means being able to noodle around to find what you don't already know is there.  And I find it a real battle very often to convince my students that this is a skill they absolutely must develop.  Mind you, if you have a sighted assistant around and it's convenient, I believe in using the quickest method to get a time-constrained job done.  But often that means you're on your own and still have to find stuff, and knowing the mix of skills to do so quickly and efficiently, rather than using brute force approaches, is critical.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back