competition


Gene
 

Maybe, maybe not.  Some of the most requested items haven't been added to NVDA for years.  Maybe they will be some day but the developers have showed no signs of being intimidated by majority views.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

The thing is, as more users would comment on an addon and would create new issues on github to tell developers what they should improve, as more probable it will be that those functions will be taken into the core of NVDA. It depends on how many people are going to benefit from that function. So, the advantage of having addons is that there is a very good opportunity for users to give feedback and it gives flexibility for developers to implement that feedback faster.

 

If you would have a screen reader which has every function implemented, you would have to wait until next release to see improvements.

 

In my view, jaws has lots of functions which have not been improved since years. But it implements lots of new features and lets the old ones unchanged. As of now, jaws does not work with firefox nor with edge as good as NVDA does. Instead of bringing such features which will be used by a small part of users FS could concentrate on how to improve user experience for example through more intuitive keystrokes, simpler menue structure, better productivity features and so on. My perception is that FS is implementing every thing they have in one product (zoomtext, open book and jaws). So, Jaws is not only a screen reader but also a multi purpose application. If you are asking jme, this is a clear measure to reach more users and to increase the range of relevant customers..

 

And finally, it is the wrong way to make a market out of a screen reader. A screen reader has a very big social impact on people who have the same right to get access to information as sighted people. In my view a screen reader should be a social movement and not a product which investors hope to gain capital from.

 

So, the best way would be the screen readers to come together and build a powerful software, together with mainstream software developers. There are a lot of possibilities to get donations and sponsors for such a project and lots of jobs could be created without having to let the users pay so much money for a software. There is no plausible reason why a company would be forced to gain capital from such a product.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von erik burggraaf
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Dezember 2017 20:50
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] competition

 

It sounds as though people have a misunderstanding of how windows screen readers work.  The other guy relies very heavily on it's own add-ons, called scripts.  The difference is that the other guy comes with many more customizations pre-installed.  Of course, you pay for them all, whether you use them or not.  Thanks to all the jaws-wielding seniors who paid for visual studio and microsoft sharepoint support.  Enjoy. 

Add-ons, scripts, apps, extentions, and let's face it, windows screen readers in premis are old paradigm.  The fact that we're still forced to use them, whether by manual instalation or base configuration, is against good modern design.  The real answer of course is for software designers to comply with accessibility standards and conduct proper quality control  Until that happens, hard coding screen readers through proprietary measures are the only recourse.

The add-on store isn't a bad idea.  Base-installing more add-ons might also be convenient, although that has it's own set of problems.  Meanwhile, we have to be advocating modern new paradigm design against the looming day when third party screen readers are a thing of the past.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 12:40:12 PM "Mike and Jenna" <schwaltze@...> wrote:

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.



 




--
Gera
Enviado desde
Thunderbird


Kevin Cussick
 

good points and I agree with most if not all of them, thanks for posting.

On 18/12/2017 00:07, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run.
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] competition
When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


Kevin Cussick
 

but for the screen black out I suspect you might need an installed copy of nvda but can't say for sure so addons might not really be the way to go. but as I say this if you did need an installed copy then I suppose it wouldn't really matter as a portable version with the feature built in wouldn't work. this is if I am correct I do not know this.

On 18/12/2017 00:16, Don H wrote:
I am one that hopes that NVDA doesn't try to compete with any other screen reader but continue to make improvements that makes the most sense relative to giving blind people as much access to computers as possible.  Addons is a perfect way to introduce useful tools in a efficient way.
On 12/17/2017 6:07 PM, Gene wrote:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run.
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.




Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@...>
 

Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
 
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
 
 
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 



-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


Sam Taylor
 

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
 
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 



-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


bob jutzi <jutzi1@...>
 

But Jaws still does make use of scripts a when necessary and I don't see how anyone can afford keeping that thing updated. I'm sure it comes down to what your software needs are. I use both Word and Outlook Office 365, Itunes, and Winamp, to name a few, and NVDA meets my needs very well.

On 12/18/2017 6:41 PM, Sam Taylor wrote:
Karim,
They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.
On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Mike and Jenna
*Sent:* Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Gene
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them. You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does. I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA. I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install. Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*Gerardo Corripio <mailto:gera1027@...>

*Sent:*Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA
and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part
of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific
function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other
screen-readers to compete. I don't have much opinion about
whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an
add on. It is a peripheral feature and not an actual
screen-reader feature. It is a proper question whether NVDA
development time and resources should be put into this
project. And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and
resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do
what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it,
but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no
reason of any substance not to do it.

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having
a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were
really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons
and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the
time of installation. Many users of whatever screen-reader
they use will never learn enough to know anything about add
ons. there are a number of add ons that should be
incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are
running when NVDA is run.

If this were done, the major objection against making a
feature an add on would be done away with. the objection is
that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never
use whatever is being discussed. If this objection were done
away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as
running add ons at the time of download and installation or
portable use, the whole question and argument about whether
something should be an add on could be done away with.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>

*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:* [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018
and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is
whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to
get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't
afford to
pay for a screen reader.




--
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


Sky Mundell
 

Absolutely but the main reason why JAWS is still in use is because of
vocational rehab agencies for the blind.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of bob
jutzi
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

But Jaws still does make use of scripts a when necessary and I don't see how
anyone can afford keeping that thing updated. I'm sure it comes down to
what your software needs are. I use both Word and Outlook Office 365,
Itunes, and Winamp, to name a few, and NVDA meets my needs very well.


On 12/18/2017 6:41 PM, Sam Taylor wrote:
Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are
optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the
installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger
download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of
the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in
the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know
it will be cheaper then 1800.00 Some of us don't have the knowledge
to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a reputation
is. You can't control that. The only thing you can control is your
character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
Of *Mike and Jenna
*Sent:* Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day
why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do
then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the
disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after
showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t
have to deal with addons.

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
*Gene
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add
ons nor how to install them. You are free to remove any add ons you
don't want and, for experienced users who understand the
implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters,
which I don't think it does. I'm not talking about including add on
after add on in NVDA. I'm saying that some add ons should be
included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not
doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they
have to download and install. Instead of spending time and resources
reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just
include the add on.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*Gerardo Corripio <mailto:gera1027@...>

*Sent:*Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to
install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as
always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily
use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA
and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part
of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific
function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other
screen-readers to compete. I don't have much opinion about
whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an
add on. It is a peripheral feature and not an actual
screen-reader feature. It is a proper question whether NVDA
development time and resources should be put into this
project. And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and
resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do
what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it,
but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no
reason of any substance not to do it.

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having
a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were
really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons
and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the
time of installation. Many users of whatever screen-reader
they use will never learn enough to know anything about add
ons. there are a number of add ons that should be
incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are
running when NVDA is run.

If this were done, the major objection against making a
feature an add on would be done away with. the objection is
that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never
use whatever is being discussed. If this objection were done
away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as
running add ons at the time of download and installation or
portable use, the whole question and argument about whether
something should be an add on could be done away with.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>

*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:* [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018
and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is
whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to
get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't
afford to
pay for a screen reader.




--
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@...>
 

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?
That way we can choose which version to down load?
personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.
People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.
 
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
 
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.




-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
 

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...


On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?
That way we can choose which version to down load?
personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.
People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
 
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.




-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@...>
 

 I'm not sure what language you are writing?
What screen reader are  you using voice over?
The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?
When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.
Does that make sense to you?
 
 
 
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...


On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?
That way we can choose which version to down load?
personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.
People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
 
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.




-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Actually Bob, the situation with jaws is that it makes almost complete use of it Scripts. Jaws has a well-earned reputation for ignoring standards, and forcing all programs into compliance. A few off-the-shelf products work out of the box if the developers have followed certain standards, but the program's you use everyday such as Office products are heavily scripted.

I used to make pretty good money going to customers houses, uninstalling their script files, and reinstalling them. I made almost as much money doing that as I did cleaning up viruses, and had almost as good a time doing it.

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 7:38:51 PM "bob jutzi" <jutzi1@...> wrote:

But Jaws still does make use of scripts a when necessary and I don't see
how anyone can afford keeping that thing updated. I'm sure it comes
down to what your software needs are. I use both Word and Outlook
Office 365, Itunes, and Winamp, to name a few, and NVDA meets my needs
very well.


On 12/18/2017 6:41 PM, Sam Taylor wrote:
Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are
optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the
installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger
download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of
the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in
the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know
it will be cheaper then 1800.00
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
*Mike and Jenna
*Sent:* Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why
use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then
also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability
place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them
nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal
with addons.

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
*Gene
*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add
ons nor how to install them. You are free to remove any add ons you
don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications,
a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't
think it does. I'm not talking about including add on after add on in
NVDA. I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you
aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the
large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and
install. Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel
just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:*Gerardo Corripio <mailto:gera1027@...>

*Sent:*Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to
install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as
always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA
and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part
of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific
function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other
screen-readers to compete. I don't have much opinion about
whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an
add on. It is a peripheral feature and not an actual
screen-reader feature. It is a proper question whether NVDA
development time and resources should be put into this
project. And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and
resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do
what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it,
but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no
reason of any substance not to do it.

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having
a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were
really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons
and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the
time of installation. Many users of whatever screen-reader
they use will never learn enough to know anything about add
ons. there are a number of add ons that should be
incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are
running when NVDA is run.

If this were done, the major objection against making a
feature an add on would be done away with. the objection is
that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never
use whatever is being discussed. If this objection were done
away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as
running add ons at the time of download and installation or
portable use, the whole question and argument about whether
something should be an add on could be done away with.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:* Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>

*Sent:* Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:* [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018
and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is
whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to
get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't
afford to
pay for a screen reader.




--
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Well, It wouldn't be totally unreasonable for the developers to pick maybe three or five of the best most useful add-ons, bundle them with NVDA, and offer them during instalation.  Browsers do that.  Other screen readers would be worthless if they didn't install their scripts.  Their development is a bit different from NVDA's

It's not about space really, although keeping nvda small isn't a bad thing.
Philosophically speaking, we expect our OS, windows, our software, and our screenreader NVDA, to all comply with standards to the point where add-ons aren't needed.  Thus, bundling add-ons, while not bad, wouldn't comply with the core philosophy.  Then again, making the screen reader extensible and allowing add ons would be strictly against the letter of new paradigm and NVDA philosophy.

Then there are distribution and licencing issues. because of add-ons are developed by third parties mostly.  These issues may include, licencing, updates, quality control, and more.

Then there is a performance and stability concern.  I don't use many add-ons, but theoretically, the more add-ons installed, the less stable the NVDA, and the more margin for error.  If you have an issue where NVDA is crashing, it's nice to know there are no add-ons in the equasion, or at least, to know what add-ons are in use.  If NVDA installs add-ons it thinks you want, you may be unaware that those are active when you go to troubleshoot NVDA.

Add-ons make a good testing ground for new ideas.  Ocasionally, an add-on developed for something crytical such as a braille display driver, will actually get intergrated into NVDA core.  So, you get the benefit of the add-on, along with the performance and stability of intergration, and the convenience of not having to research and install key functionality.

Bundling add-ons has some serious advantages and disadvantages.  It would be nice to have as many add-ons as possible swept up together into a store or other convenient distribution channel, but I'm pretty happy with the current system of carefully testing and intergrating add-ons that provide key functionality or features

Best,

Erik

On December 18, 2017 6:32:12 PM "Karim Lakhani" <karim.lakhani@...> wrote:

Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
 
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
 
 
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they dont have to deal with addons.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.


 



-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird


Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
 

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.


On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

 I'm not sure what language you are writing?
What screen reader are  you using voice over?
The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?
When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.
Does that make sense to you?
 
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...


On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?
That way we can choose which version to down load?
personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.
People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
 
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.




-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird



Sarah k Alawami
 

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

Take care

On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.


On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:
 I'm not sure what language you are writing?
What screen reader are  you using voice over?
The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?
When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.
Does that make sense to you?
 
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...


On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?
That way we can choose which version to down load?
personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.
People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
 
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition
A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.  
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.  
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA 
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not 
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more 
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to 
pay for a screen reader.




-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird




Sky Mundell
 

Hello Sarah. I have to agree with you. There are cut backs going on in education and in the agencies for the blind, and these agencies will go for NVDA once the money runs dry, trust me they will.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 9:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

 

Take care



On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.

 

On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

 I'm not sure what language you are writing?

What screen reader are  you using voice over?

The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?

When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.

Does that make sense to you?

 

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...

 

On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?

That way we can choose which version to down load?

personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.

People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.

 

On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,

Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.

If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?

I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00

 

Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.

I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA 
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not 
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more 
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to 
pay for a screen reader.






-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 

 


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I've been hearing about the cutbacks. Yes, I'm sure these agencies will make the switch to NVDA once the money runs out.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sky Mundell
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 10:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Hello Sarah. I have to agree with you. There are cut backs going on in education and in the agencies for the blind, and these agencies will go for NVDA once the money runs dry, trust me they will.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 9:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

 

Take care

 

On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.

 

On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

 I'm not sure what language you are writing?

What screen reader are  you using voice over?

The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?

When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.

Does that make sense to you?

 

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...

 

On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?

That way we can choose which version to down load?

personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.

People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.

 

On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,

Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.

If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?

I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00

 

Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.

I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA 
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not 
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more 
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to 
pay for a screen reader.




-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 

 


 

Well to be honest being a jaws and old hal user for a while I was always taught that all the screen needed to be intercepted by a special driver.

That the system was not accessible other wise.

With nvda in its natural state and this was back with build 400 or so, it amazed how much was actually available to me, even on xp.

Desktop access, the net, most programs, basically everything jaws can do.

There are a few things nvda could do before jaws.

Being written in a scripting language, you had sub programs to run of this and they could be compiled programs in their own right or scripts.

You could also control the reader with a library.

And while some games and a few other programs need jaws or something, technology has changed a lot.

99.9% of all programs are fully web based or at least has a web component.

Most readers I have used are still ms web browser dependant The others caught on, but only windoweyes got close to our model with programs just for the system.

Jaws does this to now but any large module, ie leasy, you need to pay the price of a digital recorder or my ocr package.

One thing which stands out for nvda is that like linux it was written with the web in mind, not an old outdated os called windows 95 or 98 and then get added on to.

Before then I had used python for games, but that was it.

This actually shows how powerfull python can be as a language and its not even a full one like c its just a script.

Its easy to learn and as far as I know nvda is quite stable compared to some programs.

I always have a dream from time to time that nvda is its own os maybe android, or linux or something like that.

Ofcause it uses keyboard, touch and is voice recognition heavy.

It can do everything it can and more.

Especially when windows gets stressfull, I want to return to the old days where the blind had their own devices for their own things.

I still would like a blindy device for things like mail, and web, and maybe some media playback though my issue is not media as such.

I'd like an easy way to choose the interface of the os without changing the os.

So I'd like to switch interfaces.

a win7 interface, xp, etc, etc without any issues switching to either.

Similar to virtual desktops.

And the ability to use it for different things.

Windows xp for media and a few other things, something modern and safe for the net, and something else for something else.

Sadly no one has thought about this.

I know I can build mods in but if it was part of the system well.

On 20/12/2017 7:29 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I've been hearing about the cutbacks. Yes, I'm sure these agencies will make the switch to NVDA once the money runs out.




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sky Mundell
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 10:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition


Hello Sarah. I have to agree with you. There are cut backs going on in education and in the agencies for the blind, and these agencies will go for NVDA once the money runs dry, trust me they will.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 9:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition


I'm actually up for competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007 when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.


Take care


On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@... <mailto:linomorales001@...> > wrote:


Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.


On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

I'm not sure what language you are writing?

What screen reader are you using voice over?

The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?

When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.

Does that make sense to you?




<mailto:EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...> EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)






_____


From: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io [ <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...


On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?

That way we can choose which version to down load?

personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.

People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.


<mailto:EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...> EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)






_____


From: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io [ <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,

Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.

If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?

I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00


Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.

I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.



<mailto:EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...> EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)






_____


From: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io [ <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io[ <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them. You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does. I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA. I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install. Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: <mailto:gera1027@...> Gerardo Corripio

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete. I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on. It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature. It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project. And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources. However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation. Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons. there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run.

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with. the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed. If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: <mailto:lmddh50@...> Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

To: <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.








erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Competition makes a lot of products better.  I've never seen any evidence that this applies to screen readers though.

Windows is the only OS without built in access.  Narrater is less and less useless all the time, but it's not up to the quality of what's built in to any other OS on the market.

Windows is the only system with a multi-screenreader approach.  Lots of people tried to capitalize on android access, but the built in features are good enough to put paid and even free competitors out of business.

Competition never brought the prices down or the functionality up.  Users certainly didn't benefit from the legal snyping of the big AT companies or the antitrust of microsoft building in it's own screen reader.  Oddly enough, the same people who lobbied against microsoft building it's own screen reader also lobbie governments for exclusivity agreements to sell only one of the so called competing products.  What do we call that when microsoft tries it?  Antitrust.  Huh...  How do users benefit from the exclusivity agreements?

NVDA development isn't driven by competition with other screen readers.  It's driven by the community through donations of code and money and other talents derived from the community. 

Even when there were many products competing in the market, I didn't see any evidence that the competition improved the over all performance, stability, feature sets or monitary value of screen reader products in general.

Now that the actual number of windows screen readers is shrinking, and the number of viably accessible OS is growing, and the business models of windows screen readers are so dramatically different, I believe pmarket competition is even less important than it was five or ten yearss ago.  I mean, what's the value of an exclusivity agreement to sell only one product when the next best competitor can be downloaded for free by any one with a computer?

Best,

Erik

On December 20, 2017 12:45:24 AM "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> wrote:

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

Take care

On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.


On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:
 I'm not sure what language you are writing?
What screen reader are  you using voice over?
The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?
When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.
Does that make sense to you?
 
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...


On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?
That way we can choose which version to down load?
personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.
People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To: nvda@...
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.


On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:
Hi,
Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.
If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?
I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00
 
Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.
I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.
 
 
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition
A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.  
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:
NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  
Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 
If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.  
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA 
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not 
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more 
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to 
pay for a screen reader.




-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird




Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
 

R more uuseless? Itss gotten better under WIN 10.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Competition makes a lot of products better.  I've never seen any evidence that this applies to screen readers though.

Windows is the only OS without built in access.  Narrater is less and less useless all the time, but it's not up to the quality of what's built in to any other OS on the market.

Windows is the only system with a multi-screenreader approach.  Lots of people tried to capitalize on android access, but the built in features are good enough to put paid and even free competitors out of business.

Competition never brought the prices down or the functionality up.  Users certainly didn't benefit from the legal snyping of the big AT companies or the antitrust of microsoft building in it's own screen reader.  Oddly enough, the same people who lobbied against microsoft building it's own screen reader also lobbie governments for exclusivity agreements to sell only one of the so called competing products.  What do we call that when microsoft tries it?  Antitrust.  Huh...  How do users benefit from the exclusivity agreements?

NVDA development isn't driven by competition with other screen readers.  It's driven by the community through donations of code and money and other talents derived from the community. 

Even when there were many products competing in the market, I didn't see any evidence that the competition improved the over all performance, stability, feature sets or monitary value of screen reader products in general.

Now that the actual number of windows screen readers is shrinking, and the number of viably accessible OS is growing, and the business models of windows screen readers are so dramatically different, I believe pmarket competition is even less important than it was five or ten yearss ago.  I mean, what's the value of an exclusivity agreement to sell only one product when the next best competitor can be downloaded for free by any one with a computer?

Best,

Erik

On December 20, 2017 12:45:24 AM "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> wrote:

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

 

Take care



On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.

 

On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

 I'm not sure what language you are writing?

What screen reader are  you using voice over?

The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?

When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.

Does that make sense to you?

 

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent:
 Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To:
 nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
 Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...

 

On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?

That way we can choose which version to down load?

personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.

People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent:
 Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To:
 nvda@...
Subject:
 Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.

 

On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,

Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.

If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?

I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00

 

Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.

I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent:
 Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To:
 nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
 Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA 
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not 
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more 
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to 
pay for a screen reader.






-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

 

 

 

 


erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Hi, please double check.  I'm pretty sure I wrote less useless.  Narrater is supposedly getting better, though I myself haven't found it useful for anything except the windows setup screens and installing NVDA on a new computer.  :-)  When it does come up to spec it will prove my point about competition not improving the quality of screen readers.

In fact, it's fair to say that software designers and screen reader designers are increasingly being forced by microsoft to standardize.  More and more of the underlying frameworks that control access are coming from microsoft.  That being the case, it makes less and less difference which screen reader you use since they use all of the same guts.  Why then pay enterprise prices when you can have NVDA, or narrater if it gets good enough.

Then again, windows seems to be headed toward cloud based OS workable across devices.  So, will windows require it's own screen reader in three to five years, or will it be talkback and voiceover compatible?

Best,

Erik

On December 21, 2017 2:19:33 PM "Lino Morales" <linomorales001@...> wrote:

R more uuseless? Itss gotten better under WIN 10.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

Competition makes a lot of products better.  I've never seen any evidence that this applies to screen readers though.

Windows is the only OS without built in access.  Narrater is less and less useless all the time, but it's not up to the quality of what's built in to any other OS on the market.

Windows is the only system with a multi-screenreader approach.  Lots of people tried to capitalize on android access, but the built in features are good enough to put paid and even free competitors out of business.

Competition never brought the prices down or the functionality up.  Users certainly didn't benefit from the legal snyping of the big AT companies or the antitrust of microsoft building in it's own screen reader.  Oddly enough, the same people who lobbied against microsoft building it's own screen reader also lobbie governments for exclusivity agreements to sell only one of the so called competing products.  What do we call that when microsoft tries it?  Antitrust.  Huh...  How do users benefit from the exclusivity agreements?

NVDA development isn't driven by competition with other screen readers.  It's driven by the community through donations of code and money and other talents derived from the community. 

Even when there were many products competing in the market, I didn't see any evidence that the competition improved the over all performance, stability, feature sets or monitary value of screen reader products in general.

Now that the actual number of windows screen readers is shrinking, and the number of viably accessible OS is growing, and the business models of windows screen readers are so dramatically different, I believe pmarket competition is even less important than it was five or ten yearss ago.  I mean, what's the value of an exclusivity agreement to sell only one product when the next best competitor can be downloaded for free by any one with a computer?

Best,

Erik

On December 20, 2017 12:45:24 AM "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> wrote:

I'm actually up for  competition. It will make each product better and better as time goes by.. I didn't want to use nvda in 2006 or 2007  when it came out as jaws at the time was the best. Now I won't touch jaws with a 10 foot pole. I tried to make my work switch but their excuse was that nvda was not meant for the word place and they would not consider it.

 

Take care



On Dec 19, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

Yes. All you have to do is go into the prefferences menu under tools and add-ons. Tab to get add-ons and your default browser should open to the page.

 

On 12/18/2017 8:45 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

 I'm not sure what language you are writing?

What screen reader are  you using voice over?

The reason I didn't want to downloads is because I don't know how?

When NVDA updates I get the notification and install it without worry about finding scripts, add no's or what ever window eye's use to call it.

Does that make sense to you?

 

 

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent:
 Monday, December 18, 2017 6:26 PM
To:
 nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
 Re: [nvda] competition

Thir is on ly one NVDA. You want add-ons download them. What does VO have to do with it? Meanwhile as Kereme hits the nog in Canada again...

 

On 12/18/2017 8:22 PM, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Could we as NVDA users have the choice which version works the best for the individual?

That way we can choose which version to down load?

personally the voice over APP. with the Phone's out of the box it's great.

People can jail break and all, so as the people who code NVDA, would have to be the persons who decides what is important.

 

EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent:
 Monday, December 18, 2017 4:42 PM
To:
 nvda@...
Subject:
 Re: [nvda] competition

Karim,

They are not included because Add-ons, as the name suggests, are optional. Integrating them into the installer would mean that the installer filesize would be inflated, resulting in a much bigger download for everyone.

 

On 19/12/2017 9:30 am, Karim Lakhani wrote:

Hi,

Can someone explain why add are not included in the main install of the APP.

If the add on's are useable by all the community, why not add them in the main install?

I hope this doesn't come down to the amount of data you have, I know it will be cheaper then 1800.00

 

Some of us don't have the knowledge to accomplish these functions.

I think it's like Elisa, she only gets smarter the more you use it.

 

 

EMAIL:karimlakhani@...

$$$$

SKYPE: goldenace4

$$$$

Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike and Jenna
Sent:
 Monday, December 18, 2017 10:39 AM
To:
 nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
 Re: [nvda] competition

I have to agree with this. My wife asked to question the other day why use NVDA if I have to install addons to do the stuff I want to do then also have to keep them updated. I see this a lot with the disability place I work for part time. I have several elders after showing them nvda and jaws have chosen jaws do to the fact they don’t have to deal with addons.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with.  

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA 
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not 
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more 
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to 
pay for a screen reader.






-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird