controlling the mouse?


Dennis L <dennisl1982@...>
 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 

 
 

John


Lenron
 

I love being able to use the mouse for certain things, it's awesome. I
think as long as we don't put ourselves in a certain box we will be
fine. I reall need to try this golden curser

On 2/3/17, Dennis L <dennisl1982@gmail.com> wrote:
I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?



I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes
mouse keys to do so. Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the
screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with
mouse
keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:



Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to
be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using
navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object
review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when
I
can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse
pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I
can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to
the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites
me
when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a
sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer
and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive
technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need
to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited
about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor
for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to
just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do
something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you
feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as
the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted
friends
can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a
third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is
to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be
researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made
by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person,
not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get
excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move
the
mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have
a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use
key
commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your
mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes
sense.
I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw
then.
I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a
difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be
happy.
Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference.
I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen
if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I
can
hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my
mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want
to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel
like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just
memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of
what
those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone.
I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the
icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you
think
about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job
done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows
10

From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I didn't say that. I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse
to the location of the review cursor. I also said that the left click
command is numpad slash. Just numpad slash by itself.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@softcon.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?


In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key
would move the cursor to the location of the mouse. I'm saying that
command
performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other
cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the
shift-numpad-dash key combination. That's all I'm saying now, and that's
all I said to start with. Go back and read your email again (I did), and
it
clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that
information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all,
this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key
combination.



On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page. No such
commands are given.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?



Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on? The commands
may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know. For NVDA the
move mouse to review position is as I stated. For NVDA, to click the mouse
command is numpad slash.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@softcon.com>

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?



The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This
will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question. I
believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual
focus movement.





On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a
phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.
That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.



Gene



There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using
object review or screen review, I don't know. But much of what is being
described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done
with screen review or object review. Sometimes, one of those modes finds
something another doesn't find. And the thing about the Golden cursor, as
I
understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to
something. But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation
and
screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users
and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.




If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move
the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move
the
mouse is numpad insert numpad slash. Hold numpad insert and, while doing
so, press numpad slash. I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the
command. In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the
object. You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return
point.



I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing
so
is an advantage. But as I understand the description given of how to use
it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object
navigation and screen review to advantage.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone <mailto:antony.stone@nvda.open.source.it>

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?



If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I
think


we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to
move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an


object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.



Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

I would find this mouse movement more exciting if
the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of
pixels.
--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

Please reply to the
list;

please *don't* CC
me.






John



--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


Gene
 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.
 
Gene

------ Original Message -----
From: Dennis L
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John


brian <sackriderbrian45@...>
 

There times when being able to put the mouse cursor whear we want might be neccessary but if we prove that we can use the mouse then we might get keyboard commands for programs. We see this all to often that programs are written for the mouse and not the keyboard. The keyboard is a more efficient than the mouse we need more acessability if we use the mouse we won't get it. I am not a visual person and don't need to know the layout of the screen I have never had sight.

Brian Sackrider

On 2/3/2017 4:14 AM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Hay man, I actually am slightly offended about it.
We are blind not poor helpless retarded idiots much as some sightlings may think of us.
I say this as politely as I can.
It is beneath me to show off.
We should be trying to intergrate.
I have an aunt that when seeing me doing things ie with my special tech, oh he can use a screen reader for the blind good for him.
Its not that I have something to read the screen, but that I am first and foremost a blind person using a computer.
Ie I have a cane, oh, the poor dumb helpless blind can walk!
I havn't as yet figured out golden curser, but the keyboard has a major advantage over the sighted.
Who cares what they think anyway.
At any case we should be to every extent possible be trying to include ourselves in making them make as much accessible.
If we show off to much they may stop and we will be in more trouble.
Most security software is just not fully accessible, its why I still use msse for example.
I don't usually raise my voice but to me its a bit risky to show off.
We are blind! not dumb and retarded idiots.
We should never show off, showing off is what people do to hide themselves, and to look cool and to hide the fact they suck.
I had a friend that used to do that and he was hard to get on with.
We need to be accepted as we are first and foremost.
If we showoff we are looking cheap, and that could get us treated different.
If I am getting this wrongly please say, this after all is only text.
By all means show but not show off or at least don't flaunt.
Even if its a good skill, I do do things and people are impressed, but I don't brag it to the entire universe unless I know it will be excepted.
That does not include the entire net its just not a good thing to take.
Showing off could be a risky business.



On 3/02/2017 8:52 p.m., David Moore wrote:
Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I didn't say that. I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor. I also said that the left click command is numpad slash. Just numpad slash by itself.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse. I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination. That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with. Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.


On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:
I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page. No such commands are given.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on? The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know. For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated. For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question. I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.


On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:
In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse. That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

Gene

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know. But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review. Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find. And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something. But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash. Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash. I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command. In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object. You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point.

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage. But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Stone
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think
we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move
the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an
object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.


Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

I would find this mouse movement more exciting if
the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of
pixels.


Gene
 

I've seen the statement that use of the keyboard is more efficient than the mouse made by a number of people.  That is too generalized.  There are times when using a keyboard is more efficient and times when using a mouse is. 
 
Gene
------ original Message ------

From: brian
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

                 There times when being able to put the mouse cursor
whear we want might be neccessary but if we prove that we can use the
mouse then we might get keyboard commands for programs.  We see this all
to often that programs are written for the mouse and not the keyboard. 
The keyboard is a more efficient than the mouse we need more
acessability if we use the mouse we won't get it.  I am not a visual
person and don't need to know the layout of the screen I have never had
sight.

Brian Sackrider


On 2/3/2017 4:14 AM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
> Hay man, I actually am slightly offended about it.
> We are blind not poor helpless retarded idiots much as some sightlings
> may think of us.
> I say this as politely as I can.
> It is beneath me to show off.
> We should be trying to intergrate.
> I have an aunt that when seeing me doing things ie with my special
> tech, oh he can use a screen reader for the blind good for him.
> Its not that I have something to read the screen, but that I am first
> and foremost a blind person using a computer.
> Ie I have a cane, oh, the poor dumb helpless blind can walk!
> I havn't as yet figured out golden curser, but the keyboard has a
> major advantage over the sighted.
> Who cares what they think anyway.
> At any case we should be to every extent possible be trying to include
> ourselves in making them make as much accessible.
> If we show off to much they may stop and we will be in more trouble.
> Most security software is just not fully accessible, its why I still
> use msse for example.
> I don't usually raise my voice but to me its a bit risky to show off.
> We are blind! not dumb and retarded idiots.
> We should never show off, showing off is what people do to hide
> themselves, and to look cool and to hide the fact they suck.
> I had a friend that used to do that and he was hard to get on with.
> We need to be accepted as we are first and foremost.
> If we showoff we are looking cheap, and that could get us treated
> different.
> If I am getting this wrongly please say, this after all is only text.
> By all means show but not show off or at least don't flaunt.
> Even if its a good skill, I do do things and people are impressed, but
> I don't brag it to the entire universe unless I know it will be excepted.
> That does not include the entire net its just not a good thing to take.
> Showing off could be a risky business.
>
>
>
> On 3/02/2017 8:52 p.m., David Moore wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I
>> like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of
>> always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse
>> instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the
>> mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find
>> a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a
>> sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like
>> a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do
>> everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I
>> can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a
>> sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse
>> pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them
>> about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using
>> key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted
>> friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So,
>> there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun,
>> and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job
>> done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something
>> just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel
>> that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as
>> the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted
>> friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use
>> a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two
>> thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different
>> ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of
>> inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the
>> job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get
>> the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like
>> Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I
>> can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual
>> picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key
>> commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in
>> your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that
>> makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly
>> think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light
>> perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a
>> visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a
>> blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking
>> sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am
>> using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can
>> hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture
>> in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key
>> commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the
>> screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see
>> something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key
>> commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are
>> doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to
>> picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons
>> looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you
>> think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just
>> getting the job done. Take care, guys,
>> David Moore
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Gene
>> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
>>
>> I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the
>> mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the
>> left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Travis Siegel
>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
>>
>> In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the
>> slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse. I'm
>> saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse
>> cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the
>> cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all
>> I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and
>> read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor
>> with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I
>> simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to
>> be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.
>>
>>
>> On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:
>> I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page. No
>> such commands are given.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Gene
>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
>>
>> Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on? The
>> commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know. 
>> For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA,
>> to click the mouse command is numpad slash.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Travis Siegel
>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
>>
>> The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash
>> This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in
>> question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left
>> button click, not actual focus movement.
>>
>>
>> On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:
>> In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly
>> have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items
>> under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this
>> copy.
>>
>> Gene
>>
>> There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find
>> using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what
>> is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things
>> can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of
>> those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing
>> about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set
>> pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't
>> properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing
>> themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do
>> things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.
>>
>> If you find something using object review or screen review and want
>> to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the
>> command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad
>> insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the
>> laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse
>> will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to
>> use the Golden cursor to set a return point.
>>
>> I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where
>> doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given
>> of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not
>> using object navigation and screen review to advantage.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Antony Stone
>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
>>
>> If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were,
>> I think
>> we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having
>> to move
>> the mouse pointer around.
>>
>> The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know
>> where an
>> object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of
>> it.
>>
>>
>> Antony.
>>
>> On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:
>>
>>> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if
>>> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of
>>> pixels.
>>
>
>
>





Dennis L <dennisl1982@...>
 

I agree

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 11:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

There times when being able to put the mouse cursor whear we want might be neccessary but if we prove that we can use the mouse then we might get keyboard commands for programs. We see this all to often that programs are written for the mouse and not the keyboard.
The keyboard is a more efficient than the mouse we need more acessability if we use the mouse we won't get it. I am not a visual person and don't need to know the layout of the screen I have never had sight.

Brian Sackrider


On 2/3/2017 4:14 AM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Hay man, I actually am slightly offended about it.
We are blind not poor helpless retarded idiots much as some sightlings
may think of us.
I say this as politely as I can.
It is beneath me to show off.
We should be trying to intergrate.
I have an aunt that when seeing me doing things ie with my special
tech, oh he can use a screen reader for the blind good for him.
Its not that I have something to read the screen, but that I am first
and foremost a blind person using a computer.
Ie I have a cane, oh, the poor dumb helpless blind can walk!
I havn't as yet figured out golden curser, but the keyboard has a
major advantage over the sighted.
Who cares what they think anyway.
At any case we should be to every extent possible be trying to include
ourselves in making them make as much accessible.
If we show off to much they may stop and we will be in more trouble.
Most security software is just not fully accessible, its why I still
use msse for example.
I don't usually raise my voice but to me its a bit risky to show off.
We are blind! not dumb and retarded idiots.
We should never show off, showing off is what people do to hide
themselves, and to look cool and to hide the fact they suck.
I had a friend that used to do that and he was hard to get on with.
We need to be accepted as we are first and foremost.
If we showoff we are looking cheap, and that could get us treated
different.
If I am getting this wrongly please say, this after all is only text.
By all means show but not show off or at least don't flaunt.
Even if its a good skill, I do do things and people are impressed, but
I don't brag it to the entire universe unless I know it will be excepted.
That does not include the entire net its just not a good thing to take.
Showing off could be a risky business.



On 3/02/2017 8:52 p.m., David Moore wrote:
Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I
like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of
always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse
instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the
mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find
a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a
sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like
a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do
everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I
can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a
sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse
pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them
about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using
key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted
friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So,
there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun,
and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job
done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something
just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel
that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as
the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted
friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use
a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two
thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different
ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of
inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the
job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get
the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like
Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I
can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual
picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key
commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in
your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that
makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly
think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light
perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a
visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a
blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking
sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am
using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can
hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture
in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key
commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the
screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see
something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key
commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are
doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to
picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons
looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you
think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just
getting the job done. Take care, guys, David Moore Sent from Mail for
Windows 10

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I didn't say that. I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the
mouse to the location of the review cursor. I also said that the
left click command is numpad slash. Just numpad slash by itself.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the
slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse. I'm
saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse
cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the
cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination. That's all
I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with. Go back and
read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor
with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I
simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to
be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.


On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:
I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page. No
such commands are given.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on? The
commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.
For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated. For NVDA,
to click the mouse command is numpad slash.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash
This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in
question. I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left
button click, not actual focus movement.


On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:
In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly
have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items
under the mouse. That was an error and I have removed it from this
copy.

Gene

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find
using object review or screen review, I don't know. But much of what
is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things
can be done with screen review or object review. Sometimes, one of
those modes finds something another doesn't find. And the thing
about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set
pixel points to move immediately to something. But people who don't
properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing
themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do
things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

If you find something using object review or screen review and want
to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the
command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash. Hold numpad
insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash. I don't use the
laptop layout and don't know the command. In most cases, the mouse
will now be at the position of the object. You should now be able to
use the Golden cursor to set a return point.

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where
doing so is an advantage. But as I understand the description given
of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not
using object navigation and screen review to advantage.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Stone
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were,
I think we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead
of having to move the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know
where an object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer
on top of it.


Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

I would find this mouse movement more exciting if
the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of
pixels.


 

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 08:57 am, Gene wrote:
I've seen the statement that use of the keyboard is more efficient than the mouse made by a number of people.  That is too generalized.  There are times when using a keyboard is more efficient and times when using a mouse is. 

Amen, Gene!

As an aside, I think it's a gross mistake to believe that keyboard access could ever be "more efficient" in all situations.  Many of the keyboard commands of screen readers exist as functional substitutes for "point and click."  Modern graphical user interfaces don't include the word "graphical" for no reason.  By their very design they are visually driven and optimized for "point and click".  There are lots of keyboard shortcuts that one can use and be much more efficient than lifting your hand from the keyboard to use a mouse if you're willing to memorize them, but most sighted people don't because "point and click" on a well-designed GUI is far easier, particularly when you're dealing with a "control dense" environment.

Since accessibility has become a designed-in feature so far as the major players are involved there will be keyboard shortcuts for functions where this is a practical option.  I don't think this will change one way or another with regard to whether someone does or does not use the mouse as part of their access repertoire.

In the final analysis, regardless of the user, it's about finding what works for that particular user.  "What works" and "what is most efficient" are not necessarily the same thing for a number of reasons.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



 

Again I agree with you.
The blind can't exactly use a standard mouse propperly.
Or a touch pad or anything.
We can blame this on windows though because I know in tablets with other oses than windows that works better so who knows.
If the blind can use the touchpad then in principal they can use the mouse.
Windows implimentation though is a bit inferior sadly its never been on par with other things.

On 4/02/2017 5:57 a.m., Gene wrote:
I've seen the statement that use of the keyboard is more efficient than the mouse made by a number of people. That is too generalized. There are times when using a keyboard is more efficient and times when using a mouse is.

Gene
------ original Message ------

From: brian
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?


There times when being able to put the mouse cursor
whear we want might be neccessary but if we prove that we can use the
mouse then we might get keyboard commands for programs. We see this all
to often that programs are written for the mouse and not the keyboard.
The keyboard is a more efficient than the mouse we need more
acessability if we use the mouse we won't get it. I am not a visual
person and don't need to know the layout of the screen I have never had
sight.

Brian Sackrider


On 2/3/2017 4:14 AM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Hay man, I actually am slightly offended about it.
We are blind not poor helpless retarded idiots much as some sightlings
may think of us.
I say this as politely as I can.
It is beneath me to show off.
We should be trying to intergrate.
I have an aunt that when seeing me doing things ie with my special
tech, oh he can use a screen reader for the blind good for him.
Its not that I have something to read the screen, but that I am first
and foremost a blind person using a computer.
Ie I have a cane, oh, the poor dumb helpless blind can walk!
I havn't as yet figured out golden curser, but the keyboard has a
major advantage over the sighted.
Who cares what they think anyway.
At any case we should be to every extent possible be trying to include
ourselves in making them make as much accessible.
If we show off to much they may stop and we will be in more trouble.
Most security software is just not fully accessible, its why I still
use msse for example.
I don't usually raise my voice but to me its a bit risky to show off.
We are blind! not dumb and retarded idiots.
We should never show off, showing off is what people do to hide
themselves, and to look cool and to hide the fact they suck.
I had a friend that used to do that and he was hard to get on with.
We need to be accepted as we are first and foremost.
If we showoff we are looking cheap, and that could get us treated
different.
If I am getting this wrongly please say, this after all is only text.
By all means show but not show off or at least don't flaunt.
Even if its a good skill, I do do things and people are impressed, but
I don't brag it to the entire universe unless I know it will be excepted.
That does not include the entire net its just not a good thing to take.
Showing off could be a risky business.



On 3/02/2017 8:52 p.m., David Moore wrote:
Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I
like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of
always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse
instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the
mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find
a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a
sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like
a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do
everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I
can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a
sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse
pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them
about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using
key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted
friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So,
there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun,
and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job
done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something
just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel
that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as
the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted
friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use
a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two
thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different
ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of
inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the
job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get
the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like
Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I
can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual
picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key
commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in
your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that
makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly
think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light
perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a
visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a
blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking
sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am
using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can
hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture
in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key
commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the
screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see
something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key
commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are
doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to
picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons
looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you
think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just
getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I didn't say that. I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the
mouse to the location of the review cursor. I also said that the
left click command is numpad slash. Just numpad slash by itself.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the
slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse. I'm
saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse
cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the
cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination. That's all
I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with. Go back and
read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor
with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I
simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to
be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.


On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:
I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page. No
such commands are given.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on? The
commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.
For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated. For NVDA,
to click the mouse command is numpad slash.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash
This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in
question. I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left
button click, not actual focus movement.


On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:
In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly
have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items
under the mouse. That was an error and I have removed it from this
copy.

Gene

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find
using object review or screen review, I don't know. But much of what
is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things
can be done with screen review or object review. Sometimes, one of
those modes finds something another doesn't find. And the thing
about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set
pixel points to move immediately to something. But people who don't
properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing
themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do
things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

If you find something using object review or screen review and want
to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the
command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash. Hold numpad
insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash. I don't use the
laptop layout and don't know the command. In most cases, the mouse
will now be at the position of the object. You should now be able to
use the Golden cursor to set a return point.

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where
doing so is an advantage. But as I understand the description given
of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not
using object navigation and screen review to advantage.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Stone
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were,
I think
we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having
to move
the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know
where an
object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of
it.


Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

I would find this mouse movement more exciting if
the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of
pixels.





Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, David,

 

Yes, we all need to learn to work together instead of dwelling on the negative. I taught my sister Cecilia how to read braille when we were kids. When I went to summer camp, we wrote letters back and forth and that was so neat.

 

I don't like labels either. To me, terms like sightling or sightie sound so derogatory. It's like calling someone of a different race a horrible name. If we're going to get along in this world, we need to learn to think of each other as human beings.

 

I think that's really neat that you can use the mouse with golden cursor. I'm glad NVDA has that feature. There are times when you can't use just the keyboard to do something so you have to use the mouse. I'd like to take this off list if you don't mind but under a different subject so we don't clutter up the list.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 2:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hi Shaun,

I was not trying to show off at all. I am humble as they get, knowing that anytime I could be snuffed out it was not for the lord. That is not what I am saying at all. I just think that we should be altogether as human beeings instead of blindys, sightlings, and so on. Why can everybody just see each other as human beeings. I want to know about the sighted world, and the sighted world should want to know about the blind world. I have many blind friends who have the attitude that the sighted are the enany that is slowing them down. I don't see it that way at all. Sighted people forget that I am blind, because I do not go around shouting that I am blind, look at me, I am blind. I just talk to every human beeing the same way. I do not like labels at all for any people. I tell sighted people about how great it is to be blind all of the time, and I constantly have my sighted friends using my cane, learning some Braille, because they think it is fun. Every sighted person has told me that I am not bitter like so many other blind people are. There are blind people who are bitter toward the sighted, and that is not integrating. There are blind people who think they are so much better than a sighted person. We all need to talk about what we have in common instead of what is different about us all of the time. The sighted is not the enimy of the blind, like so many blind people think. I have had sighted people bend over backward to make something accessible for me. I am just saying that at work, for example, we need to say right click instead of applications to our boss, or they will not know what we are talking about. We, as blind people, need to speak some sighted lingo if we are going to make it in the work world. In my opinion, the majority wins. In my mind, because the world is dominately sighted, the blind need to try a lot harder to get along with the sighted than the other way around. This is where many different minorities disagree with me. We need to work so hard to get the majority to get along with us, because we are in the minority. That is not a popular way for minorities to think these days I sure know. That is what I think. The sighted owe us nothing. The sighted do not have to make things accessible for us if they do not want to. We need to do what we need by ourselves to make all things accessible. The sighted owe us nothing. I work night and day to fit into the majority, the sighted. I do not expect the sighted to fit in with me, because I am the minority. I hope that makes since to some people. The minority needs to work so hard to be included into the majority instead of the other way around. That is just reality.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 4:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hay man, I actually am slightly offended about it.

We are blind not poor helpless retarded idiots much as some sightlings

may think of us.

I say this as politely as I can.

It is beneath me to show off.

We should be trying to intergrate.

I have an aunt that when seeing me doing things ie with my special tech,

oh he can use a screen reader for the blind good for him.

Its not that I have something to read the screen, but that I am first

and foremost a blind person using a computer.

Ie I have a cane, oh, the poor dumb helpless blind can walk!

I havn't as yet figured out golden curser, but the keyboard has a major

advantage over the sighted.

Who cares what they think anyway.

At any case we should be to every extent possible be trying to include

ourselves in making them make as much accessible.

If we show off to much they may stop and we will be in more trouble.

Most security software is just not fully accessible, its why I still use

msse for example.

I don't usually raise my voice but to me its a bit risky to show off.

We are blind! not dumb and retarded idiots.

We should never show off, showing off is what people do to hide

themselves, and to look cool and to hide the fact they suck.

I had a friend that used to do that and he was hard to get on with.

We need to be accepted as we are first and foremost.

If we showoff we are looking cheap, and that could get us treated different.

If I am getting this wrongly please say, this after all is only text.

By all means show but not show off or at least don't flaunt.

Even if its a good skill, I do do things and people are impressed, but

I don't brag it to the entire universe unless I know it will be excepted.

That does not include the entire net its just not a good thing to take.

Showing off could be a risky business.

 

 

 

On 3/02/2017 8:52 p.m., David Moore wrote:

> Hi all,

> There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,

> David Moore

> Sent from Mail for Windows 10

> From: Gene

> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

> On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

> I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Gene

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

> On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

> In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

> Gene

> There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

> If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point.

> I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Antony Stone

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

> we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

> the mouse pointer around.

> The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

> object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

> Antony.

> On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

>> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

>> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

>> pixels.

 

 

 


David Moore
 

Hi Rosemarie,

I will email you off list, and we can talk about it.

Thank you so much.

Take care, Rosemarie, It is like calling out different races, I think, using terms like Sightling and Blindys. How can we integrate acting like that.

I will email you soon.

I will not say anymore on this subject. I will take this to a Facebook group I am on LOL! I am so sorry for saying what I said, if it offended anyone! Please forgive me.

Take care, guys!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2017 3:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hi, David,

 

Yes, we all need to learn to work together instead of dwelling on the negative. I taught my sister Cecilia how to read braille when we were kids. When I went to summer camp, we wrote letters back and forth and that was so neat.

 

I don't like labels either. To me, terms like sightling or sightie sound so derogatory. It's like calling someone of a different race a horrible name. If we're going to get along in this world, we need to learn to think of each other as human beings.

 

I think that's really neat that you can use the mouse with golden cursor. I'm glad NVDA has that feature. There are times when you can't use just the keyboard to do something so you have to use the mouse. I'd like to take this off list if you don't mind but under a different subject so we don't clutter up the list.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 2:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hi Shaun,

I was not trying to show off at all. I am humble as they get, knowing that anytime I could be snuffed out it was not for the lord. That is not what I am saying at all. I just think that we should be altogether as human beeings instead of blindys, sightlings, and so on. Why can everybody just see each other as human beeings. I want to know about the sighted world, and the sighted world should want to know about the blind world. I have many blind friends who have the attitude that the sighted are the enany that is slowing them down. I don't see it that way at all. Sighted people forget that I am blind, because I do not go around shouting that I am blind, look at me, I am blind. I just talk to every human beeing the same way. I do not like labels at all for any people. I tell sighted people about how great it is to be blind all of the time, and I constantly have my sighted friends using my cane, learning some Braille, because they think it is fun. Every sighted person has told me that I am not bitter like so many other blind people are. There are blind people who are bitter toward the sighted, and that is not integrating. There are blind people who think they are so much better than a sighted person. We all need to talk about what we have in common instead of what is different about us all of the time. The sighted is not the enimy of the blind, like so many blind people think. I have had sighted people bend over backward to make something accessible for me. I am just saying that at work, for example, we need to say right click instead of applications to our boss, or they will not know what we are talking about. We, as blind people, need to speak some sighted lingo if we are going to make it in the work world. In my opinion, the majority wins. In my mind, because the world is dominately sighted, the blind need to try a lot harder to get along with the sighted than the other way around. This is where many different minorities disagree with me. We need to work so hard to get the majority to get along with us, because we are in the minority. That is not a popular way for minorities to think these days I sure know. That is what I think. The sighted owe us nothing. The sighted do not have to make things accessible for us if they do not want to. We need to do what we need by ourselves to make all things accessible. The sighted owe us nothing. I work night and day to fit into the majority, the sighted. I do not expect the sighted to fit in with me, because I am the minority. I hope that makes since to some people. The minority needs to work so hard to be included into the majority instead of the other way around. That is just reality.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 4:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hay man, I actually am slightly offended about it.

We are blind not poor helpless retarded idiots much as some sightlings

may think of us.

I say this as politely as I can.

It is beneath me to show off.

We should be trying to intergrate.

I have an aunt that when seeing me doing things ie with my special tech,

oh he can use a screen reader for the blind good for him.

Its not that I have something to read the screen, but that I am first

and foremost a blind person using a computer.

Ie I have a cane, oh, the poor dumb helpless blind can walk!

I havn't as yet figured out golden curser, but the keyboard has a major

advantage over the sighted.

Who cares what they think anyway.

At any case we should be to every extent possible be trying to include

ourselves in making them make as much accessible.

If we show off to much they may stop and we will be in more trouble.

Most security software is just not fully accessible, its why I still use

msse for example.

I don't usually raise my voice but to me its a bit risky to show off.

We are blind! not dumb and retarded idiots.

We should never show off, showing off is what people do to hide

themselves, and to look cool and to hide the fact they suck.

I had a friend that used to do that and he was hard to get on with.

We need to be accepted as we are first and foremost.

If we showoff we are looking cheap, and that could get us treated different.

If I am getting this wrongly please say, this after all is only text.

By all means show but not show off or at least don't flaunt.

Even if its a good skill, I do do things and people are impressed, but

I don't brag it to the entire universe unless I know it will be excepted.

That does not include the entire net its just not a good thing to take.

Showing off could be a risky business.

 

 

 

On 3/02/2017 8:52 p.m., David Moore wrote:

> Hi all,

> There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,

> David Moore

> Sent from Mail for Windows 10

> From: Gene

> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

> On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

> I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Gene

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

> On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

> In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

> Gene

> There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

> If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point.

> I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Antony Stone

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

> we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

> the mouse pointer around.

> The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

> object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

> Antony.

> On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

>> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

>> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

>> pixels.

 

 

 

 


David Moore
 

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John

 


David Moore
 

Hi,

Because of people like you, I am so passionate about the Golden Cursor. Nobody seems to know about it, and I cannot get information to contact the developer. However, The Golden Cursor makes it so easy to use point and click, that people could do a job where the mouse is needed even 5 percent of the time. Key commands rule for the blind, but I am trying to get people to know that the Golden Cursor could get people out of a jam at least 10 percent on the job. Please everyone, email me off line at:

Jesusloves1966@...

I will show you all that Golden cursor can do, and why we should be talking about this add on a lot. As you read, if you are on the job, and need to access the screen with the mouse, you can save that position in Golden cursor, and you can go right to that spot over and over to do your job. I am using the Golden Cursor litterly to do my job. This is what I want people to know. The Golden cursor is so over-looked. It gives people much better access concerning using the mouse, just being able to save mouse positions on the screen, and going right back to them. I run into situations everyday where Golden Cursor enables me to do something that I would need sighted help to do. Key commands and object navigation will not work 100 percent of the time, so using the Golden Cursor allows me to keep my job! This is why I want to get people's attention about this. Please give it a try.

Just go to the add on page and install Golden Cursor, and read the little bit of how to use it. You just will not believe what you can do with using the mouse when and if you have to.

I will do a diminstration, and I will put the recording on this site, and the NVDA add on sight, because people must know what the Golden Cursor can do. It could litterly allow someone to do many jobs that they could not do without it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Lenron
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 9:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I love being able to use the mouse for certain things, it's awesome. I

think as long as we don't put ourselves in a certain box we will be

fine. I reall need to try this golden curser

 

On 2/3/17, Dennis L <dennisl1982@...> wrote:

> I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s

> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes

> mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the

> screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with

> mouse

> keys.

> earlier, David Moore, wrote:

> Hi all,

> There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to

> be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using

> navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object

> review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when

> I

> can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse

> pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I

> can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to

> the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites

> me

> when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a

> sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer

> and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive

> technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need

> to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited

> about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor

> for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to

> just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do

> something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you

> feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as

> the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted

> friends

> can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a

> third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is

> to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be

> researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made

> by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person,

> not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get

> excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move

> the

> mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have

> a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use

> key

> commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your

> mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes

> sense.

> I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw

> then.

> I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a

> difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be

> happy.

> Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference.

> I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen

> if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I

> can

> hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my

> mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want

> to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel

> like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just

> memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of

> what

> those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone.

> I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the

> icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you

> think

> about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job

> done. Take care, guys,

> David Moore

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for

> Windows

> 10

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse

> to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click

> command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key

> would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that

> command

> performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other

> cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the

> shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's

> all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and

> it

> clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that

> information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all,

> this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key

> combination.

> On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

> I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such

> commands are given.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands

> may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the

> move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse

> command is numpad slash.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This

> will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I

> believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual

> focus movement.

> On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

> In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a

> phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.

> That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

> Gene

> There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using

> object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being

> described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done

> with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds

> something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as

> I

> understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to

> something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation

> and

> screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users

> and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

> If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move

> the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move

> the

> mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing

> so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the

> command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the

> object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return

> point.

> I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing

> so

> is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use

> it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object

> navigation and screen review to advantage.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Antony Stone <mailto:antony.stone@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I

> think

> we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to

> move

> the mouse pointer around.

> The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

> object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

> Antony.

> On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

>> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

>> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

>> pixels.

> --

> All generalisations are inaccurate.

>                                                    Please reply to the

> list;

>                                                          please *don't* CC

> me.

> John

 

 

--

Lenron Brown

Cell: 985-271-2832

Skype: ron.brown762

 

 

 


Gene
 

Have you verified that the mouse can find roughly two percent more items or is that just an impression?  It may be that the mouse can find things that using screen review and object navigation review can't find but in your first post, you spoke of getting sighted help to move the mouse to an icon and set the golden cursor.  Your first message gave a strong impression that doing this usually requires sighted help.  Whether you meant to give that impression or not, that was the impression. 
 
One of the main points I wanted to make is that if you know how to use object navigation and screen review, you can find a lot of things and then move the mouse to them with the NVDA move mouse command.  You can then set the Golden Cursor yourself to move to that point when commanded to.  You appear to be largely discounting this and in doing so, you are implying far mor dependence on sighted users than is needed much of the time when working with setting Golden Cursor points.  I'm not saying the Golden Cursor is not valuable.  I'm saying that you appear to be overestimating its value while underestimating the value of using object and screen review both in conjunction with and not in conjunction with the golden cursor. 
 
I wouldn't be surprised if some items in some programs can't be seen unless a mouse is used.  I don't know why from a technical point of view.  but I can find a lot of things using object and screen navigation.  Also, I would think that in many work programs, with or without the Golden cursor, scripting is necessary.  The Golden Cursor is not a panacea for access problems.  It can help but it can't solve nearly all the access problems encountered.
 
gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2017 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John

 



Angelo Sonnesso
 

What is the golden cursor, and where do you get it?

 

 

73 N2DYN Angelo

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2017 8:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hi,

Because of people like you, I am so passionate about the Golden Cursor. Nobody seems to know about it, and I cannot get information to contact the developer. However, The Golden Cursor makes it so easy to use point and click, that people could do a job where the mouse is needed even 5 percent of the time. Key commands rule for the blind, but I am trying to get people to know that the Golden Cursor could get people out of a jam at least 10 percent on the job. Please everyone, email me off line at:

Jesusloves1966@...

I will show you all that Golden cursor can do, and why we should be talking about this add on a lot. As you read, if you are on the job, and need to access the screen with the mouse, you can save that position in Golden cursor, and you can go right to that spot over and over to do your job. I am using the Golden Cursor litterly to do my job. This is what I want people to know. The Golden cursor is so over-looked. It gives people much better access concerning using the mouse, just being able to save mouse positions on the screen, and going right back to them. I run into situations everyday where Golden Cursor enables me to do something that I would need sighted help to do. Key commands and object navigation will not work 100 percent of the time, so using the Golden Cursor allows me to keep my job! This is why I want to get people's attention about this. Please give it a try.

Just go to the add on page and install Golden Cursor, and read the little bit of how to use it. You just will not believe what you can do with using the mouse when and if you have to.

I will do a diminstration, and I will put the recording on this site, and the NVDA add on sight, because people must know what the Golden Cursor can do. It could litterly allow someone to do many jobs that they could not do without it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Lenron
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 9:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I love being able to use the mouse for certain things, it's awesome. I

think as long as we don't put ourselves in a certain box we will be

fine. I reall need to try this golden curser

 

On 2/3/17, Dennis L <dennisl1982@...> wrote:

> I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s

> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes

> mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the

> screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with

> mouse

> keys.

> earlier, David Moore, wrote:

> Hi all,

> There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to

> be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using

> navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object

> review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when

> I

> can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse

> pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I

> can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to

> the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites

> me

> when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a

> sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer

> and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive

> technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need

> to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited

> about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor

> for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to

> just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do

> something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you

> feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as

> the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted

> friends

> can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a

> third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is

> to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be

> researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made

> by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person,

> not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get

> excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move

> the

> mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have

> a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use

> key

> commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your

> mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes

> sense.

> I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw

> then.

> I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a

> difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be

> happy.

> Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference.

> I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen

> if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I

> can

> hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my

> mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want

> to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel

> like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just

> memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of

> what

> those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone.

> I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the

> icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you

> think

> about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job

> done. Take care, guys,

> David Moore

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for

> Windows

> 10

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse

> to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click

> command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key

> would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that

> command

> performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other

> cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the

> shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's

> all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and

> it

> clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that

> information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all,

> this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key

> combination.

> On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

> I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such

> commands are given.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands

> may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the

> move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse

> command is numpad slash.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This

> will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I

> believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual

> focus movement.

> On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

> In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a

> phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.

> That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

> Gene

> There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using

> object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being

> described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done

> with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds

> something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as

> I

> understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to

> something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation

> and

> screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users

> and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

> If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move

> the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move

> the

> mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing

> so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the

> command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the

> object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return

> point.

> I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing

> so

> is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use

> it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object

> navigation and screen review to advantage.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Antony Stone <mailto:antony.stone@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I

> think

> we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to

> move

> the mouse pointer around.

> The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

> object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

> Antony.

> On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

>> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

>> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

>> pixels.

> --

> All generalisations are inaccurate.

>                                                    Please reply to the

> list;

>                                                          please *don't* CC

> me.

> John

 

 

--

Lenron Brown

Cell: 985-271-2832

Skype: ron.brown762

 

 

 


David Moore
 

Hi,

I find the golden cursor the most exciting NVDA add on, and here is exactly why. First of all, You can press a key command, and Golden cursor will tell you in pixels where the mouse pointer is on the screen. Left side is 0 in the X direction, and top is 0 in the y direction of the pointer. Golden Cursor gives you the pointer position in the X, first, then the Y. So, if Golden cursor says 34 748, then you know that the pointer is only 34 pixels from the left of the screen, and it is all of the way at the bottom of the screen 748 pixels from the top. Now, the default of the computer screen with win10 is: 1366 pixels from left to right, and 768 pixels from top to bottom. Now, the next best thing about the Golden cursor, is that you can save a mouse pointer position so that the pointer will go right to that spot. It is like setting a book mark for the mouse pointer. You just press the command, and put in the X number, and Y number, altogether without a space, and then space and describe what that position is,like a very important button in an app, for example. From now on, you can press a command that gives you a list of all saved positions, and you can just enter on the one you want, and the mouse pointer goes right to that spot. That is very powerful. Also, the Golden cursor add on allows you to move the mouse pointer with your arrow keys by so many pixels each time you press an arrow key. For example, you can set Golden cursor to move ten pixels to the right each time you press the right arrow. You just hold down the windows+NVDA as you press the arrow keys. That is very powerful, because you can move the pointer completely straight in a line up, down, right, or left. I have memorized many pixel positions of things on the computer screen because of Golden cursor. For example, the position of the start button is 24 pixels to the left, and 748 pixels to the bottom. So, in other words, the start button is in the very bottom left hand corner of the screen. The desktop icons, are in the top left half of the screen. You can press windows+NVDA+P to hear the pposition of the pointer by routing it to the review cursor on any object. Now, the review cursor moves with the system carrot, so you can simply go to a desktop icon, and press Windows+NVDA+P on any desktop icon, and hear the pixel position of that icon. You can then save that position, and then, you can later open the list of saved positions and enter on that position, and mouse pointer will go right there. You can do this on the desktop with key commands, I know. But, what about places in programs where you cannot access a control any other way except for the mouse? This is where the golden cursor becomes the most important add on, I believe. Now, you can save that position with Golden cursor. Then, you can go to that position from now on, without sighted help even if you are totally blind. That is how powerful the Golden cursor is. There is even more it does. Now, with NVDA itself, without the Golden cursor add on, you can still do a lot with the mouse. If you go to the preferences menu and go to the mouse settings, you can Turn on play beeps as you move the mouse pointer, either with a mouse, or on your mouse pad on a laptop. For example, as I move my finger over my touch pad on my laptop, with stereo head phones on, as I move the mouse pointer left, the sound comes out of the left head phone. Moving it to the right does the opposite. If I move the pointer up, the tone gets higher in pitch. Moving it down, makes the tones go down in pitch. So, for example, If I hear a low pitch coming more from the right head phone, that means that the pointer is at the bottom of the screen more to the right side of the screen. That can tell you a lot right there. Also, NVDA tells you the text that the pointer is moving over. For example, if I am moving my finger, and I hear News app, I can click my touch pad, just like a sighted person would, to open the News App. Now, with the Golden cursor, I have the position of the pointer saved where my News App is, so I can move the pointer right there, click just like a sighted person, and the news app opens, and I can read the news with the mouse pointer. I can access many apps with the Golden cursor add on and moving the mouse pointer around the app. I hope that there are blind users that are interested in just how much you can do with the mouse, even if you are totally blind. I want to get people excited about this. The mouse is not just for the sighted. There are places in an app at work that only the mouse pointer can get to, and it is possible to use Golden Cursor to save the pointer position for that spot, and move the pointer to that spot, even if you are totally blind. I would like to talk to the developer of the Golden cursor about keeping it up and going, because I use it all the time, to access places in apps that cannot be accessed any other way.

I hope this helps some of your and everyone's questions about this topic The mouse pointer can find very important things on the screen that key commands cannot find. The Golden cursor allows very independent use of the mouse. Very powerful.

You can download and install Golden cursor at:

www.addons.nvda-project..org

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Angelo Sonnesso
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2017 9:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

What is the golden cursor, and where do you get it?

 

 

73 N2DYN Angelo

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2017 8:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hi,

Because of people like you, I am so passionate about the Golden Cursor. Nobody seems to know about it, and I cannot get information to contact the developer. However, The Golden Cursor makes it so easy to use point and click, that people could do a job where the mouse is needed even 5 percent of the time. Key commands rule for the blind, but I am trying to get people to know that the Golden Cursor could get people out of a jam at least 10 percent on the job. Please everyone, email me off line at:

Jesusloves1966@...

I will show you all that Golden cursor can do, and why we should be talking about this add on a lot. As you read, if you are on the job, and need to access the screen with the mouse, you can save that position in Golden cursor, and you can go right to that spot over and over to do your job. I am using the Golden Cursor litterly to do my job. This is what I want people to know. The Golden cursor is so over-looked. It gives people much better access concerning using the mouse, just being able to save mouse positions on the screen, and going right back to them. I run into situations everyday where Golden Cursor enables me to do something that I would need sighted help to do. Key commands and object navigation will not work 100 percent of the time, so using the Golden Cursor allows me to keep my job! This is why I want to get people's attention about this. Please give it a try.

Just go to the add on page and install Golden Cursor, and read the little bit of how to use it. You just will not believe what you can do with using the mouse when and if you have to.

I will do a diminstration, and I will put the recording on this site, and the NVDA add on sight, because people must know what the Golden Cursor can do. It could litterly allow someone to do many jobs that they could not do without it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Lenron
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 9:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I love being able to use the mouse for certain things, it's awesome. I

think as long as we don't put ourselves in a certain box we will be

fine. I reall need to try this golden curser

 

On 2/3/17, Dennis L <dennisl1982@...> wrote:

> I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s

> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes

> mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the

> screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with

> mouse

> keys.

> earlier, David Moore, wrote:

> Hi all,

> There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to

> be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using

> navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object

> review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when

> I

> can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse

> pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I

> can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to

> the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites

> me

> when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a

> sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer

> and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive

> technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need

> to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited

> about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor

> for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to

> just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do

> something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you

> feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as

> the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted

> friends

> can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a

> third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is

> to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be

> researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made

> by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person,

> not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get

> excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move

> the

> mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have

> a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use

> key

> commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your

> mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes

> sense.

> I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw

> then.

> I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a

> difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be

> happy.

> Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference.

> I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen

> if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I

> can

> hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my

> mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want

> to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel

> like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just

> memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of

> what

> those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone.

> I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the

> icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you

> think

> about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job

> done. Take care, guys,

> David Moore

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for

> Windows

> 10

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse

> to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click

> command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key

> would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that

> command

> performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other

> cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the

> shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's

> all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and

> it

> clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that

> information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all,

> this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key

> combination.

> On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

> I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such

> commands are given.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands

> may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the

> move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse

> command is numpad slash.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This

> will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I

> believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual

> focus movement.

> On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

> In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a

> phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.

> That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

> Gene

> There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using

> object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being

> described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done

> with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds

> something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as

> I

> understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to

> something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation

> and

> screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users

> and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

> If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move

> the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move

> the

> mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing

> so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the

> command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the

> object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return

> point.

> I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing

> so

> is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use

> it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object

> navigation and screen review to advantage.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Antony Stone <mailto:antony.stone@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I

> think

> we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to

> move

> the mouse pointer around.

> The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

> object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

> Antony.

> On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

>> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

>> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

>> pixels.

> --

> All generalisations are inaccurate.

>                                                    Please reply to the

> list;

>                                                          please *don't* CC

> me.

> John

 

 

--

Lenron Brown

Cell: 985-271-2832

Skype: ron.brown762

 

 

 

 


 

I semi agree but not quite.
The blind shouldn't need to use the mouse unless a program they use is rwitten poorly access wise or spaciffically needs the mouse.
If its in a business sure I can see a reason but for a standard home user its not really needed.
Mice are sighted things not blind things.
A trackpad is probably more in the realms of a thing all can use.

On 5/02/2017 2:38 p.m., David Moore wrote:
I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees. Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption. I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes. While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise. Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them. I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Dennis L
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so. Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:
Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I didn't say that. I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor. I also said that the left click command is numpad slash. Just numpad slash by itself.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?


In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse. I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination. That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with. Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.



On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:
I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page. No such commands are given.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on? The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know. For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated. For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question. I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.


On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:
In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse. That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

Gene

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know. But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review. Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find. And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something. But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash. Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash. I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command. In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object. You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point.

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage. But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Stone
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think
we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move
the mouse pointer around.
The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an
object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.
Antony.
On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:
I would find this mouse movement more exciting if
the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of
pixels.


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Shaun,

There were times when I had to use the mouse here at home. I was trying to get into a program but couldn't do it with just keyboard commands but when I picked up the mouse, I found the program and hit the left click button--and that was way before golden cursor came out.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2017 6:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I semi agree but not quite.
The blind shouldn't need to use the mouse unless a program they use is rwitten poorly access wise or spaciffically needs the mouse.
If its in a business sure I can see a reason but for a standard home user its not really needed.
Mice are sighted things not blind things.
A trackpad is probably more in the realms of a thing all can use.



On 5/02/2017 2:38 p.m., David Moore wrote:
I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees. Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption. I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes. While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise. Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them. I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Dennis L
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so. Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:
Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I
like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of
always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse
instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse
to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a
control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense
of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a
sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do
everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I
can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a
sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse
pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about
my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key
commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends,
to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a
reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just
to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to
get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would
if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I
want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving
the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really
relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third
of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is
to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be
researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been
made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a
research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe
that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because
you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it
really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is
on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the
visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual
person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my
sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50
now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a
difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be
happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a
visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is
on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and
Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on
the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter
what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I
am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn
better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a
bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those
commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone.
I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what
the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what
you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just
getting the job done. Take care, guys, David Moore Sent from Mail for
Windows 10

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

I didn't say that. I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor. I also said that the left click command is numpad slash. Just numpad slash by itself.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?


In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse. I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination. That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with. Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.



On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:
I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page. No such commands are given.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on? The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know. For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated. For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question. I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.


On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:
In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse. That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

Gene

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know. But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review. Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find. And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something. But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash. Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash. I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command. In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object. You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point.

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage. But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Stone
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I
think we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of
having to move the mouse pointer around.
The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know
where an object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.
Antony.
On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:
I would find this mouse movement more exciting if the pointer would
move from object to object rather than by number of pixels.


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, David,

 

I remember one time I had trouble getting into a program with keyboard commands so I picked up the mouse and slowly brought it to where the program was. Then I hit the left mouse button and bingo! There was the program. I think it was outlook express at that time. No, I take that back. It was microsoft word. At that time I had word 2003. You're right. You don't really have to have sight in order to learn to use the mouse when needed.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2017 6:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hi,

I find the golden cursor the most exciting NVDA add on, and here is exactly why. First of all, You can press a key command, and Golden cursor will tell you in pixels where the mouse pointer is on the screen. Left side is 0 in the X direction, and top is 0 in the y direction of the pointer. Golden Cursor gives you the pointer position in the X, first, then the Y. So, if Golden cursor says 34 748, then you know that the pointer is only 34 pixels from the left of the screen, and it is all of the way at the bottom of the screen 748 pixels from the top. Now, the default of the computer screen with win10 is: 1366 pixels from left to right, and 768 pixels from top to bottom. Now, the next best thing about the Golden cursor, is that you can save a mouse pointer position so that the pointer will go right to that spot. It is like setting a book mark for the mouse pointer. You just press the command, and put in the X number, and Y number, altogether without a space, and then space and describe what that position is,like a very important button in an app, for example. From now on, you can press a command that gives you a list of all saved positions, and you can just enter on the one you want, and the mouse pointer goes right to that spot. That is very powerful. Also, the Golden cursor add on allows you to move the mouse pointer with your arrow keys by so many pixels each time you press an arrow key. For example, you can set Golden cursor to move ten pixels to the right each time you press the right arrow. You just hold down the windows+NVDA as you press the arrow keys. That is very powerful, because you can move the pointer completely straight in a line up, down, right, or left. I have memorized many pixel positions of things on the computer screen because of Golden cursor. For example, the position of the start button is 24 pixels to the left, and 748 pixels to the bottom. So, in other words, the start button is in the very bottom left hand corner of the screen. The desktop icons, are in the top left half of the screen. You can press windows+NVDA+P to hear the pposition of the pointer by routing it to the review cursor on any object. Now, the review cursor moves with the system carrot, so you can simply go to a desktop icon, and press Windows+NVDA+P on any desktop icon, and hear the pixel position of that icon. You can then save that position, and then, you can later open the list of saved positions and enter on that position, and mouse pointer will go right there. You can do this on the desktop with key commands, I know. But, what about places in programs where you cannot access a control any other way except for the mouse? This is where the golden cursor becomes the most important add on, I believe. Now, you can save that position with Golden cursor. Then, you can go to that position from now on, without sighted help even if you are totally blind. That is how powerful the Golden cursor is. There is even more it does. Now, with NVDA itself, without the Golden cursor add on, you can still do a lot with the mouse. If you go to the preferences menu and go to the mouse settings, you can Turn on play beeps as you move the mouse pointer, either with a mouse, or on your mouse pad on a laptop. For example, as I move my finger over my touch pad on my laptop, with stereo head phones on, as I move the mouse pointer left, the sound comes out of the left head phone. Moving it to the right does the opposite. If I move the pointer up, the tone gets higher in pitch. Moving it down, makes the tones go down in pitch. So, for example, If I hear a low pitch coming more from the right head phone, that means that the pointer is at the bottom of the screen more to the right side of the screen. That can tell you a lot right there. Also, NVDA tells you the text that the pointer is moving over. For example, if I am moving my finger, and I hear News app, I can click my touch pad, just like a sighted person would, to open the News App. Now, with the Golden cursor, I have the position of the pointer saved where my News App is, so I can move the pointer right there, click just like a sighted person, and the news app opens, and I can read the news with the mouse pointer. I can access many apps with the Golden cursor add on and moving the mouse pointer around the app. I hope that there are blind users that are interested in just how much you can do with the mouse, even if you are totally blind. I want to get people excited about this. The mouse is not just for the sighted. There are places in an app at work that only the mouse pointer can get to, and it is possible to use Golden Cursor to save the pointer position for that spot, and move the pointer to that spot, even if you are totally blind. I would like to talk to the developer of the Golden cursor about keeping it up and going, because I use it all the time, to access places in apps that cannot be accessed any other way.

I hope this helps some of your and everyone's questions about this topic The mouse pointer can find very important things on the screen that key commands cannot find. The Golden cursor allows very independent use of the mouse. Very powerful.

You can download and install Golden cursor at:

www.addons.nvda-project..org

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Angelo Sonnesso
Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2017 9:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

What is the golden cursor, and where do you get it?

 

 

73 N2DYN Angelo

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2017 8:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hi,

Because of people like you, I am so passionate about the Golden Cursor. Nobody seems to know about it, and I cannot get information to contact the developer. However, The Golden Cursor makes it so easy to use point and click, that people could do a job where the mouse is needed even 5 percent of the time. Key commands rule for the blind, but I am trying to get people to know that the Golden Cursor could get people out of a jam at least 10 percent on the job. Please everyone, email me off line at:

Jesusloves1966@...

I will show you all that Golden cursor can do, and why we should be talking about this add on a lot. As you read, if you are on the job, and need to access the screen with the mouse, you can save that position in Golden cursor, and you can go right to that spot over and over to do your job. I am using the Golden Cursor litterly to do my job. This is what I want people to know. The Golden cursor is so over-looked. It gives people much better access concerning using the mouse, just being able to save mouse positions on the screen, and going right back to them. I run into situations everyday where Golden Cursor enables me to do something that I would need sighted help to do. Key commands and object navigation will not work 100 percent of the time, so using the Golden Cursor allows me to keep my job! This is why I want to get people's attention about this. Please give it a try.

Just go to the add on page and install Golden Cursor, and read the little bit of how to use it. You just will not believe what you can do with using the mouse when and if you have to.

I will do a diminstration, and I will put the recording on this site, and the NVDA add on sight, because people must know what the Golden Cursor can do. It could litterly allow someone to do many jobs that they could not do without it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Lenron
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 9:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I love being able to use the mouse for certain things, it's awesome. I

think as long as we don't put ourselves in a certain box we will be

fine. I reall need to try this golden curser

 

On 2/3/17, Dennis L <dennisl1982@...> wrote:

> I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s

> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes

> mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the

> screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with

> mouse

> keys.

> earlier, David Moore, wrote:

> Hi all,

> There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to

> be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using

> navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object

> review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when

> I

> can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse

> pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I

> can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to

> the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites

> me

> when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a

> sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer

> and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive

> technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need

> to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited

> about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor

> for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to

> just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do

> something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you

> feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as

> the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted

> friends

> can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a

> third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is

> to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be

> researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made

> by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person,

> not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get

> excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move

> the

> mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have

> a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use

> key

> commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your

> mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes

> sense.

> I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw

> then.

> I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a

> difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be

> happy.

> Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference.

> I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen

> if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I

> can

> hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my

> mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want

> to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel

> like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just

> memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of

> what

> those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone.

> I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the

> icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you

> think

> about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job

> done. Take care, guys,

> David Moore

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for

> Windows

> 10

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse

> to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click

> command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key

> would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that

> command

> performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other

> cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the

> shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's

> all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and

> it

> clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that

> information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all,

> this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key

> combination.

> On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

> I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such

> commands are given.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands

> may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the

> move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse

> command is numpad slash.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This

> will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I

> believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual

> focus movement.

> On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

> In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a

> phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.

> That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

> Gene

> There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using

> object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being

> described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done

> with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds

> something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as

> I

> understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to

> something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation

> and

> screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users

> and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

> If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move

> the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move

> the

> mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing

> so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the

> command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the

> object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return

> point.

> I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing

> so

> is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use

> it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object

> navigation and screen review to advantage.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Antony Stone <mailto:antony.stone@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I

> think

> we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to

> move

> the mouse pointer around.

> The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

> object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

> Antony.

> On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

>> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

>> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

>> pixels.

> --

> All generalisations are inaccurate.

>                                                    Please reply to the

> list;

>                                                          please *don't* CC

> me.

> John

 

 

--

Lenron Brown

Cell: 985-271-2832

Skype: ron.brown762

 

 

 

 


Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


I totally agree with you on this one.


My self as well tthe more tools in your kit you can use the better.


Just for a quick example a touch device like a smart phone, tablet with the screen reader on the device telling me where i move my fingers etc and having stuff read under it is another tool in the tool box.


The end of the day your finger is the mouse and where you touch is where the focus goes to. I have spoken to quite a few blind people who have said what am i going to do when my old tacktile phone dies. You either do not get another one or you learn some thing new like using the new touch phones with speech or magnification.


But even though we are talking about a computer and the physical mouse or a touch mouse it can get to areas that might not be supported by a keyboard.


There is a saying do not knock it before you try it then make up your mind.

But do not knock it on the head by some one else saying it does not work for me they might not have the time to learn a new trick or simpley do not even want to go there.


Gene nz

.




On 5/02/2017 2:38 PM, David Moore wrote:

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John

 


-- 
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http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/ If you would like to keep up to date with whats being updated on our website, you can also follow us on facebook by visiting
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Also, check out which New Zealand libraries have the NVDA screen reader available by visiting the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries


Dejan Ristic
 

Hi David,


I have just taken a liking to the word "tool box" you mentioned in this thread. Let me list what I use to keep pace with the screen on my computer.


First, I use Golden cursor.


Second, I use the review modes.


Third, I use the add-on called Objpad


The forth instance of use is rather a method. If I am not able to scroll down along the screen where I wish to place either the reviews and/or Golden cursor, or even Objpad, I simply press NVDA plus B, listening carefully what is read to me. As soon as I hear a desired element and/or item pronounced, I, for instance, press NVDA plus Shift plus M, in order to place the mouse pointer to the current navigator object (being the position at which I stopped reading by pressing NVDA plus Shift plus M). Afterwards, I can do the following:


I can either bring up Golden cursor, and/or save the position, or even I can operate the position I have previously stopped at by placing the mouse pointer to the current navigator object, so as to handle it on the spot. I have played in that way as far as VLC Media Player is concerned.


I simply want to say that I will use whatever I can. Let my tool box be a fully blown beach ball!


On 2/5/2017 2:38 AM, David Moore wrote:

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John