controlling the mouse?


Dejan Ristic
 


Here is a direct link to Golden cursor:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html

On 2/5/2017 3:04 AM, Angelo Sonnesso wrote:

What is the golden cursor, and where do you get it?

 

 

73 N2DYN Angelo

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2017 8:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hi,

Because of people like you, I am so passionate about the Golden Cursor. Nobody seems to know about it, and I cannot get information to contact the developer. However, The Golden Cursor makes it so easy to use point and click, that people could do a job where the mouse is needed even 5 percent of the time. Key commands rule for the blind, but I am trying to get people to know that the Golden Cursor could get people out of a jam at least 10 percent on the job. Please everyone, email me off line at:

Jesusloves1966@...

I will show you all that Golden cursor can do, and why we should be talking about this add on a lot. As you read, if you are on the job, and need to access the screen with the mouse, you can save that position in Golden cursor, and you can go right to that spot over and over to do your job. I am using the Golden Cursor litterly to do my job. This is what I want people to know. The Golden cursor is so over-looked. It gives people much better access concerning using the mouse, just being able to save mouse positions on the screen, and going right back to them. I run into situations everyday where Golden Cursor enables me to do something that I would need sighted help to do. Key commands and object navigation will not work 100 percent of the time, so using the Golden Cursor allows me to keep my job! This is why I want to get people's attention about this. Please give it a try.

Just go to the add on page and install Golden Cursor, and read the little bit of how to use it. You just will not believe what you can do with using the mouse when and if you have to.

I will do a diminstration, and I will put the recording on this site, and the NVDA add on sight, because people must know what the Golden Cursor can do. It could litterly allow someone to do many jobs that they could not do without it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Lenron
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 9:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I love being able to use the mouse for certain things, it's awesome. I

think as long as we don't put ourselves in a certain box we will be

fine. I reall need to try this golden curser

 

On 2/3/17, Dennis L <dennisl1982@...> wrote:

> I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s

> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes

> mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the

> screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with

> mouse

> keys.

> earlier, David Moore, wrote:

> Hi all,

> There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to

> be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using

> navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object

> review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when

> I

> can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse

> pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I

> can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to

> the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites

> me

> when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a

> sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer

> and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive

> technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need

> to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited

> about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor

> for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to

> just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do

> something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you

> feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as

> the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted

> friends

> can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a

> third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is

> to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be

> researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made

> by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person,

> not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get

> excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move

> the

> mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have

> a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use

> key

> commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your

> mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes

> sense.

> I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw

> then.

> I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a

> difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be

> happy.

> Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference.

> I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen

> if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I

> can

> hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my

> mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want

> to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel

> like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just

> memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of

> what

> those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone.

> I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the

> icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you

> think

> about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job

> done. Take care, guys,

> David Moore

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for

> Windows

> 10

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse

> to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click

> command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key

> would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that

> command

> performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other

> cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the

> shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's

> all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and

> it

> clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that

> information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all,

> this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key

> combination.

> On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

> I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such

> commands are given.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands

> may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the

> move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse

> command is numpad slash.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel <mailto:tsiegel@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This

> will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I

> believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual

> focus movement.

> On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

> In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a

> phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.

> That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

> Gene

> There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using

> object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being

> described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done

> with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds

> something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as

> I

> understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to

> something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation

> and

> screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users

> and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

> If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move

> the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move

> the

> mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing

> so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the

> command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the

> object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return

> point.

> I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing

> so

> is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use

> it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object

> navigation and screen review to advantage.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Antony Stone <mailto:antony.stone@...>

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I

> think

> we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to

> move

> the mouse pointer around.

> The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

> object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

> Antony.

> On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

>> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

>> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

>> pixels.

> --

> All generalisations are inaccurate.

>                                                    Please reply to the

> list;

>                                                          please *don't* CC

> me.

> John

 

 

--

Lenron Brown

Cell: 985-271-2832

Skype: ron.brown762

 

 

 





Gene
 

For technical reasons I don't understand, screen navigation doesn't see things in some programs that object navigation does.  The interesting thing about NVDA key b is that it reads as though you were in object review and you gave NVDA the command to reat every object.  that is my understanding of what Michael Lee told me in a discussion awhile ago.  At times, even when I use object review manually, I miss something and if I think I might be missing something, or perhaps at times just to see if something unexpected happens in a program that isn't fully accessible from the keyboard, I'll try NVDA key b.  At times I find something I missed when doing manual object navigation. 
 
As you describe, but not in these terms, if you stop the reading where you hear something read you want to work with, what you are actually doing is stopping the object navigation on the object you want to work with.  You can then set the mouse to the object and use the Golden Cursor if you wish. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 4:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

Hi David,


I have just taken a liking to the word "tool box" you mentioned in this thread. Let me list what I use to keep pace with the screen on my computer.


First, I use Golden cursor.


Second, I use the review modes.


Third, I use the add-on called Objpad


The forth instance of use is rather a method. If I am not able to scroll down along the screen where I wish to place either the reviews and/or Golden cursor, or even Objpad, I simply press NVDA plus B, listening carefully what is read to me. As soon as I hear a desired element and/or item pronounced, I, for instance, press NVDA plus Shift plus M, in order to place the mouse pointer to the current navigator object (being the position at which I stopped reading by pressing NVDA plus Shift plus M). Afterwards, I can do the following:


I can either bring up Golden cursor, and/or save the position, or even I can operate the position I have previously stopped at by placing the mouse pointer to the current navigator object, so as to handle it on the spot. I have played in that way as far as VLC Media Player is concerned.


I simply want to say that I will use whatever I can. Let my tool box be a fully blown beach ball!


On 2/5/2017 2:38 AM, David Moore wrote:

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John

 





The Gamages
 

Hello,
 
Having followed this thread for some time, I can see uses for the golden cursor in conjunction with other NVDA navigation modes, it could be particularly good for unlabelled graphics with sighted help I suppose, I do find the keystrokes you mention to be particularly clumsy using a normal keyboard however, NVDA key plus shift plus M is not at all easy to do, especially if listening for a particular place in a read out , could there be another way of doing this? on a laptop it is probably not a problem if using the caps lock as a moderator key.
 
Best Regards, Jim.
 

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

Hi David,

 

I have just taken a liking to the word "tool box" you mentioned in this thread. Let me list what I use to keep pace with the screen on my computer.

 

First, I use Golden cursor.

 

Second, I use the review modes.

 

Third, I use the add-on called Objpad

 

The forth instance of use is rather a method. If I am not able to scroll down along the screen where I wish to place either the reviews and/or Golden cursor, or even Objpad, I simply press NVDA plus B, listening carefully what is read to me. As soon as I hear a desired element and/or item pronounced, I, for instance, press NVDA plus Shift plus M, in order to place the mouse pointer to the current navigator object (being the position at which I stopped reading by pressing NVDA plus Shift plus M). Afterwards, I can do the following:

 

I can either bring up Golden cursor, and/or save the position, or even I can operate the position I have previously stopped at by placing the mouse pointer to the current navigator object, so as to handle it on the spot. I have played in that way as far as VLC Media Player is concerned.

 

I simply want to say that I will use whatever I can. Let my tool box be a fully blown beach ball!


On 2/5/2017 2:38 AM, David Moore wrote:

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John

 





Gene
 

Make the caps lock key another NVDA key.  If you do this, you won't find the command difficult.  It doesn't matter if you are using the laptop or desktop layout.  there is a check box in the NVDA key settings dialog that will do this in either layout.  I use the caps lock key as the NVDA modifier regularly.  I hate using insert down arrow for read to end.  I use caps lock down arrow.. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

Hello,
 
Having followed this thread for some time, I can see uses for the golden cursor in conjunction with other NVDA navigation modes, it could be particularly good for unlabelled graphics with sighted help I suppose, I do find the keystrokes you mention to be particularly clumsy using a normal keyboard however, NVDA key plus shift plus M is not at all easy to do, especially if listening for a particular place in a read out , could there be another way of doing this? on a laptop it is probably not a problem if using the caps lock as a moderator key.
 
Best Regards, Jim.
 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

Hi David,

 

I have just taken a liking to the word "tool box" you mentioned in this thread. Let me list what I use to keep pace with the screen on my computer.

 

First, I use Golden cursor.

 

Second, I use the review modes.

 

Third, I use the add-on called Objpad

 

The forth instance of use is rather a method. If I am not able to scroll down along the screen where I wish to place either the reviews and/or Golden cursor, or even Objpad, I simply press NVDA plus B, listening carefully what is read to me. As soon as I hear a desired element and/or item pronounced, I, for instance, press NVDA plus Shift plus M, in order to place the mouse pointer to the current navigator object (being the position at which I stopped reading by pressing NVDA plus Shift plus M). Afterwards, I can do the following:

 

I can either bring up Golden cursor, and/or save the position, or even I can operate the position I have previously stopped at by placing the mouse pointer to the current navigator object, so as to handle it on the spot. I have played in that way as far as VLC Media Player is concerned.

 

I simply want to say that I will use whatever I can. Let my tool box be a fully blown beach ball!


On 2/5/2017 2:38 AM, David Moore wrote:

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John

 





Rob
 

Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I hate using insert down arrow for read to end. I use caps lock down arrow..
I like ins+down arrow because you can do it with one hand. If you do caps+down arrow you need two hands.


Gene
 

Many people, particularly those with smaller hands would, I think find this uncomfortable.  My hands aren't small but I very much dislike the unnatural contortion of executing such a command with one hand.  Perhaps there are keyboards where the insert is closer to the down arrow.  On a standard size keyboard, the command is not a natural configuration of the hand. 
 
Also, I think people with carpal tunnel syndrome would also find this painful.
 
Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Rob
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I hate using insert down arrow for read to end.  I use caps lock down arrow..

I like ins+down arrow because you can do it with one hand. If you do caps+down arrow you need two hands.




Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

 

I'm thinking of using the caps lock key because there are times when my right hand hurts. I injured it from years of overuse and the doctor thought I probably had carpal tunnel. I do a lot of knitting and I used to use the slate and stylus for taking notes or writing grocery lists. I realize this doesn't relate to NVDA but I'm just saying that it's a good idea for me to use the caps lock key.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 5:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Make the caps lock key another NVDA key.  If you do this, you won't find the command difficult.  It doesn't matter if you are using the laptop or desktop layout.  there is a check box in the NVDA key settings dialog that will do this in either layout.  I use the caps lock key as the NVDA modifier regularly.  I hate using insert down arrow for read to end.  I use caps lock down arrow.. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 7:29 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hello,

 

Having followed this thread for some time, I can see uses for the golden cursor in conjunction with other NVDA navigation modes, it could be particularly good for unlabelled graphics with sighted help I suppose, I do find the keystrokes you mention to be particularly clumsy using a normal keyboard however, NVDA key plus shift plus M is not at all easy to do, especially if listening for a particular place in a read out , could there be another way of doing this? on a laptop it is probably not a problem if using the caps lock as a moderator key.

 

Best Regards, Jim.

 

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 10:35 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Hi David,

 

I have just taken a liking to the word "tool box" you mentioned in this thread. Let me list what I use to keep pace with the screen on my computer.

 

First, I use Golden cursor.

 

Second, I use the review modes.

 

Third, I use the add-on called Objpad

 

The forth instance of use is rather a method. If I am not able to scroll down along the screen where I wish to place either the reviews and/or Golden cursor, or even Objpad, I simply press NVDA plus B, listening carefully what is read to me. As soon as I hear a desired element and/or item pronounced, I, for instance, press NVDA plus Shift plus M, in order to place the mouse pointer to the current navigator object (being the position at which I stopped reading by pressing NVDA plus Shift plus M). Afterwards, I can do the following:

 

I can either bring up Golden cursor, and/or save the position, or even I can operate the position I have previously stopped at by placing the mouse pointer to the current navigator object, so as to handle it on the spot. I have played in that way as far as VLC Media Player is concerned.

 

I simply want to say that I will use whatever I can. Let my tool box be a fully blown beach ball!

 

On 2/5/2017 2:38 AM, David Moore wrote:

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John

 




 

On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 07:14 pm, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
You don't really have to have sight in order to learn to use the mouse when needed.

 Amen to that!!  As laptops with touch screens become more common the ability to make an ordered traversal of the screen with your fingertip with NVDA mouse tracking on is an excellent way to get an overview of what's there.

I've taught clients how to use the mouse and mouse pad to do "quick and dirty" reads of a screen.  For my grad student clients this proved to be a very efficient way to decide whether a web page they'd found in a search actually had content of potential interest or could be ignored.  When speed of review is of the essence knowing "blind mousing techniques" can increase this significantly.

It's just another arrow in the quiver.  I'm certainly not saying that everyone should use it, but I will say that everyone should be aware of it and, if they find that they're spending a lot of time "brute force tabbing" their way around a page trying to get a sense of what's actually on it that they might want to consider learning another method.  Whether they like or use the mouse method is entirely a personal choice, but you can't make an informed choice without giving something a go, and for more than 2 minutes when it takes a bit of skill development to perfect your technique. 
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



The Gamages
 

Hello Gene,
 
I’ve probably been under a missapprehension for years here, are you saying that I can use the caps lock as an NVDA modifier and still use it for it’s original purpose as a caps lock in, for instance, a word processor? when I think about it it is used in conjunction with other keys for the NVDA modifier, I’ve probably been thick in this instance for years, but I bet I’m not the only one, so I will take it on the chin if it clears up for people like me, what was probably obvious to others.
 
Best Regards, Jim.
 

From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
Make the caps lock key another NVDA key.  If you do this, you won't find the command difficult.  It doesn't matter if you are using the laptop or desktop layout.  there is a check box in the NVDA key settings dialog that will do this in either layout.  I use the caps lock key as the NVDA modifier regularly.  I hate using insert down arrow for read to end.  I use caps lock down arrow.. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
Hello,
 
Having followed this thread for some time, I can see uses for the golden cursor in conjunction with other NVDA navigation modes, it could be particularly good for unlabelled graphics with sighted help I suppose, I do find the keystrokes you mention to be particularly clumsy using a normal keyboard however, NVDA key plus shift plus M is not at all easy to do, especially if listening for a particular place in a read out , could there be another way of doing this? on a laptop it is probably not a problem if using the caps lock as a moderator key.
 
Best Regards, Jim.
 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

Hi David,

 

I have just taken a liking to the word "tool box" you mentioned in this thread. Let me list what I use to keep pace with the screen on my computer.

 

First, I use Golden cursor.

 

Second, I use the review modes.

 

Third, I use the add-on called Objpad

 

The forth instance of use is rather a method. If I am not able to scroll down along the screen where I wish to place either the reviews and/or Golden cursor, or even Objpad, I simply press NVDA plus B, listening carefully what is read to me. As soon as I hear a desired element and/or item pronounced, I, for instance, press NVDA plus Shift plus M, in order to place the mouse pointer to the current navigator object (being the position at which I stopped reading by pressing NVDA plus Shift plus M). Afterwards, I can do the following:

 

I can either bring up Golden cursor, and/or save the position, or even I can operate the position I have previously stopped at by placing the mouse pointer to the current navigator object, so as to handle it on the spot. I have played in that way as far as VLC Media Player is concerned.

 

I simply want to say that I will use whatever I can. Let my tool box be a fully blown beach ball!


On 2/5/2017 2:38 AM, David Moore wrote:

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John

 





Rob
 

The Gamages" <james.gamage@btinternet.com> wrote:
Ive probably been under a missapprehension for years here, are you saying
that I can use the caps lock as an NVDA modifier and still use it for its
original purpose as a caps lock in, for instance, a word processor?
Sure you can. If you want to use the caps lock for its original purpose, just hit it twice in rapid succession.


john s
 

Jim, yep, you can still use the Capslock key as it is normally used.


earlier, The Gamages, wrote:

Hello Gene,
 
I’ve probably been under a missapprehension for years here, are you saying that I can use the caps lock as an NVDA modifier and still use it for it’s original purpose as a caps lock in, for instance, a word processor? when I think about it it is used in conjunction with other keys for the NVDA modifier, I’ve probably been thick in this instance for years, but I bet I’m not the only one, so I will take it on the chin if it clears up for people like me, what was probably obvious to others.
 
Best Regards, Jim.
 
From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
Make the caps lock key another NVDA key.  If you do this, you won't find the command difficult.  It doesn't matter if you are using the laptop or desktop layout.  there is a check box in the NVDA key settings dialog that will do this in either layout.  I use the caps lock key as the NVDA modifier regularly.  I hate using insert down arrow for read to end.  I use caps lock down arrow.. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
 
From: The Gamages
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 7:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
Hello,
 
Having followed this thread for some time, I can see uses for the golden cursor in conjunction with other NVDA navigation modes, it could be particularly good for unlabelled graphics with sighted help I suppose, I do find the keystrokes you mention to be particularly clumsy using a normal keyboard however, NVDA key plus shift plus M is not at all easy to do, especially if listening for a particular place in a read out , could there be another way of doing this? on a laptop it is probably not a problem if using the caps lock as a moderator key.
 
Best Regards, Jim.
 
From: Dejan Ristic
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 10:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

Hi David,

 

I have just taken a liking to the word "tool box" you mentioned in this thread. Let me list what I use to keep pace with the screen on my computer.

 

First, I use Golden cursor.

 

Second, I use the review modes.

 

Third, I use the add-on called Objpad

 

The forth instance of use is rather a method. If I am not able to scroll down along the screen where I wish to place either the reviews and/or Golden cursor, or even Objpad, I simply press NVDA plus B, listening carefully what is read to me. As soon as I hear a desired element and/or item pronounced, I, for instance, press NVDA plus Shift plus M, in order to place the mouse pointer to the current navigator object (being the position at which I stopped reading by pressing NVDA plus Shift plus M). Afterwards, I can do the following:

 

I can either bring up Golden cursor, and/or save the position, or even I can operate the position I have previously stopped at by placing the mouse pointer to the current navigator object, so as to handle it on the spot. I have played in that way as far as VLC Media Player is concerned.

 

I simply want to say that I will use whatever I can. Let my tool box be a fully blown beach ball!

On 2/5/2017 2:38 AM, David Moore wrote:

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [ mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John

 


John


The Gamages
 

#Thanks for that, I bet more people than me have lerned something.


Best Regards, Jim.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 5:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

The Gamages" <james.gamage@btinternet.com> wrote:
I’ve probably been under a missapprehension for years here, are you
saying
that I can use the caps lock as an NVDA modifier and still use it for
it’s
original purpose as a caps lock in, for instance, a word processor?
Sure you can. If you want to use the caps lock for its original purpose,
just hit it twice in rapid succession.


Gene
 

If you set the caps lock to be used as an NVDA key, to use it as a caps lock key, press it twice quickly to change it's status.  It toggles as usual if you press it twice quickly.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

Hello Gene,
 
I’ve probably been under a missapprehension for years here, are you saying that I can use the caps lock as an NVDA modifier and still use it for it’s original purpose as a caps lock in, for instance, a word processor? when I think about it it is used in conjunction with other keys for the NVDA modifier, I’ve probably been thick in this instance for years, but I bet I’m not the only one, so I will take it on the chin if it clears up for people like me, what was probably obvious to others.
 
Best Regards, Jim.
 
From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
Make the caps lock key another NVDA key.  If you do this, you won't find the command difficult.  It doesn't matter if you are using the laptop or desktop layout.  there is a check box in the NVDA key settings dialog that will do this in either layout.  I use the caps lock key as the NVDA modifier regularly.  I hate using insert down arrow for read to end.  I use caps lock down arrow.. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
Hello,
 
Having followed this thread for some time, I can see uses for the golden cursor in conjunction with other NVDA navigation modes, it could be particularly good for unlabelled graphics with sighted help I suppose, I do find the keystrokes you mention to be particularly clumsy using a normal keyboard however, NVDA key plus shift plus M is not at all easy to do, especially if listening for a particular place in a read out , could there be another way of doing this? on a laptop it is probably not a problem if using the caps lock as a moderator key.
 
Best Regards, Jim.
 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2017 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

Hi David,

 

I have just taken a liking to the word "tool box" you mentioned in this thread. Let me list what I use to keep pace with the screen on my computer.

 

First, I use Golden cursor.

 

Second, I use the review modes.

 

Third, I use the add-on called Objpad

 

The forth instance of use is rather a method. If I am not able to scroll down along the screen where I wish to place either the reviews and/or Golden cursor, or even Objpad, I simply press NVDA plus B, listening carefully what is read to me. As soon as I hear a desired element and/or item pronounced, I, for instance, press NVDA plus Shift plus M, in order to place the mouse pointer to the current navigator object (being the position at which I stopped reading by pressing NVDA plus Shift plus M). Afterwards, I can do the following:

 

I can either bring up Golden cursor, and/or save the position, or even I can operate the position I have previously stopped at by placing the mouse pointer to the current navigator object, so as to handle it on the spot. I have played in that way as far as VLC Media Player is concerned.

 

I simply want to say that I will use whatever I can. Let my tool box be a fully blown beach ball!


On 2/5/2017 2:38 AM, David Moore wrote:

I keep saying that the more tools you have at your disposal, the more you can do. Let us say, on the job, that you can do 90 percent of what you need to do with key commands. I have used the mouse to do the other ten percent. Ten percent on the job is a lot. If the blind keep being told that they do not need the mouse at all, they will not know that they can do certain tasks on the job ten percent of the time, and they might not be able to do their job. The mouse does have a crutial use in cases where one's job depends on it. Golden Cursor makes it so easy to work with the mouse, that someone might be able to do their job. This is how important the Golden Cursor is. This is why I am so passionate about it. A blind person might be able to use the mouse even 2 percent that will allow them to keep their job. That is important. The mouse pointer can access controls that object review will never find on the screen. Pointing and clicking with the touch pad or mouse, can enable me to access web sites that I could not access any other way. I am not saying that one way is better than another way. We will indeed use key commands 90 percent of the time. However, in my personal and work life, being able to control the mouse and point and clicked has gotten me out of jams 10 percent of the time. Why don't people want every tool in their tool box they can have, just in case they might need that tool 1 percent of the time. That 1 percent might make a difference if you can do something at work or not. I am just saying that it is good if you can include the mouse in your tool box, in case you might need it at a crucial time. The Golden cursor is the best way that I have been able to find where you can use the mouse pretty good. The Golden Cursor allows a windows user to use the mouse pretty good. Try it for yourself, before you make a judgement. Even JAWS added the feature to be able to move the mouse and hear what is under the mouse. Sometimes, maybe at work, that is the only way you might be able to access something so you can keep your job. Therefore, it is worth keeping that mouse option hidden in your tool box, and you might be using it more than you think if you need to access a very important control on a page, your job might depend on it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

You are assuming that review modes see everything the mouse sees.  Unless you have done enough comparison to know that is an unsupported assumption.  I don't assume that every thing in every program that can be moved to with a mouse can be moved to using various review modes.  While I don't need to use a mouse to use the programs I use and review modes allow me access to what I want, I have no basis to assume that I won't find a program where I can see things with a mouse I can't otherwise.  Also, some links on the Internet require a mouse to activate them.  I haven't played with a mouse on a web site but having a mouse may make working with this or that site to do something possible, if cumbersome.

 

Gene

------ Original Message -----

From: Dennis L

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 7:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I have no problem using the key navigation. I see no need for a mouse.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of john s
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 5:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I don't mind moving the mouse pointer when I have to and I use Window Eyes mouse keys to do so.  Otherwise, I don't care where something is on the screen as long as I can get to it, first with keystrokes and then with mouse keys.


earlier, David Moore, wrote:

Hi all,
There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 
I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Travis Siegel
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?
 

In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

 
 
On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Travis Siegel

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

 

 

On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

 

Gene

 

There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation. 

 

If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point. 

 

I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Antony Stone

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

the mouse pointer around.

The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

Antony.

On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

> I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

> the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

> pixels.

--

All generalisations are inaccurate.

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.

 


 

John