On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 02:31 PM, Gene wrote:

Are you talking about the read aloud mode or some other aspect of use?

-
Yes.  What seemed to me to be the core element of the original post was this, "But I can not figure out how to make this program read a webpage or a word docuemnt. (sic)"

To be perfectly honest, given the whole context given, and then learning afterward that the original poster was sighted, I do not believe a screen reader is the best way to get the result he appears to be looking for.  Read-aloud modes seem to be a far better tool for the desired task/outcome.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit

"Be Yourself" is the worst advice you can give to some people.

       ~ Tom Masson

Hi,

Mouse and touch interaction and navigation are always in our radar i.e. there were issues on GitHub in the past, and I did an all-nighter bac in May to bring improved mouse and touch interaction support for parts of Windows 11 user interface (it was both fun and a frustrating experience, to tell you the truth). At the moment our primary input scenario is the keyboard, followed by braille display hardware. But I do recognize the potential of mouse and touch interaction and have been a vocal advocate for improving the user experience for touchscreen users (me included). My enthusiasm for touchscreens became the reason for creating Enhanced Touch Gestures add-on back in 2013 (and I've been buying touch-capable laptops since), and the potential of mouse interaction was perhaps the biggest reason for maintaining Golden Cursor for some time (I'm no longer maintaining Golden Cursor, by the way). In fact, the upcoming version of Windows App Essentials add-on will include support for improved mouse and touch interaction scenarios in an upcoming change to Windows 11 Version 22H2.

Another possible reason for my enthusiasm for touchscreens (and mouse interaction to some extent) is that I had low vision until I lost my sight in my teens. Perhaps this experience helped me think in terms of spatial dimensions, drawing me to screen exploration techniques and helping me adjust easily to touch-enabled devices. I joined NVDA project after hearing a demo of NVDA running on a Samsung tablet with a preview build of Windows 8 installed in 2012, and like many, I was impressed with touch support on iOS and Android.

Cheers,

Joseph

Hi Joseph,

 

I have never had sight, but I have always loved Window-Eyes ability to let you move the mouse pointer on the screen either to the PC, or by lines, words, chars, or even pixels.

 

No other screen reader to my knowledge has ever achieved that.

 

Not only that, with Window-Eyes, the mouse was always “live” so you didn’t have to go into a special mode to read around it.

 

Oh yes, there was a lot that Window-Eyes had that no screen reader has touched yet.

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 22 December 2022 16:40
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does NVDA read a webpage or a word document ?

 

Hi,

Mouse and touch interaction and navigation are always in our radar i.e. there were issues on GitHub in the past, and I did an all-nighter bac in May to bring improved mouse and touch interaction support for parts of Windows 11 user interface (it was both fun and a frustrating experience, to tell you the truth). At the moment our primary input scenario is the keyboard, followed by braille display hardware. But I do recognize the potential of mouse and touch interaction and have been a vocal advocate for improving the user experience for touchscreen users (me included). My enthusiasm for touchscreens became the reason for creating Enhanced Touch Gestures add-on back in 2013 (and I've been buying touch-capable laptops since), and the potential of mouse interaction was perhaps the biggest reason for maintaining Golden Cursor for some time (I'm no longer maintaining Golden Cursor, by the way). In fact, the upcoming version of Windows App Essentials add-on will include support for improved mouse and touch interaction scenarios in an upcoming change to Windows 11 Version 22H2.

Another possible reason for my enthusiasm for touchscreens (and mouse interaction to some extent) is that I had low vision until I lost my sight in my teens. Perhaps this experience helped me think in terms of spatial dimensions, drawing me to screen exploration techniques and helping me adjust easily to touch-enabled devices. I joined NVDA project after hearing a demo of NVDA running on a Samsung tablet with a preview build of Windows 8 installed in 2012, and like many, I was impressed with touch support on iOS and Android.

Cheers,

Joseph

I can't tell you exactly what Window-eyes offered compared with other screen-readers but I am not convinced that some, perhaps a good deal of your opinion is the result of not knowing some more obscure features in JAWS.  There is a command to move the JAWS cursor in very small increments.  I haven't used it for perhaps over a decade and I learned about it a long time ago.  And of course, you can move by line and word and carachter using the JAWS cursor.

You may prefer the Window-eyes mouse being separate and using separate commands.  I much prefer learning one set of navigation commands that work for the pc cursor and the mouse.  Once I know one set of commands, I know both.

The NVDA cursor may not be able to be moved by pixel, but you can move it by line, word and character or to the top and bottom of the screen.  If you know screen review commands and object review commands in NVDA,  you can move the mouse to the position you set screen review or the object navigator.

My point is not to just discuss Window-eyes compared with other screen-readers.  I'm writing because if people believe something is limited, incorrectly, they won't look for how to do things that can be done.  I think the matter should be further discussed.

Gene

Hi Joseph,

 

I have never had sight, but I have always loved Window-Eyes ability to let you move the mouse pointer on the screen either to the PC, or by lines, words, chars, or even pixels.

 

No other screen reader to my knowledge has ever achieved that.

 

Not only that, with Window-Eyes, the mouse was always “live” so you didn’t have to go into a special mode to read around it.

 

Oh yes, there was a lot that Window-Eyes had that no screen reader has touched yet.

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 22 December 2022 16:40
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does NVDA read a webpage or a word document ?

 

Hi,

Mouse and touch interaction and navigation are always in our radar i.e. there were issues on GitHub in the past, and I did an all-nighter bac in May to bring improved mouse and touch interaction support for parts of Windows 11 user interface (it was both fun and a frustrating experience, to tell you the truth). At the moment our primary input scenario is the keyboard, followed by braille display hardware. But I do recognize the potential of mouse and touch interaction and have been a vocal advocate for improving the user experience for touchscreen users (me included). My enthusiasm for touchscreens became the reason for creating Enhanced Touch Gestures add-on back in 2013 (and I've been buying touch-capable laptops since), and the potential of mouse interaction was perhaps the biggest reason for maintaining Golden Cursor for some time (I'm no longer maintaining Golden Cursor, by the way). In fact, the upcoming version of Windows App Essentials add-on will include support for improved mouse and touch interaction scenarios in an upcoming change to Windows 11 Version 22H2.

Another possible reason for my enthusiasm for touchscreens (and mouse interaction to some extent) is that I had low vision until I lost my sight in my teens. Perhaps this experience helped me think in terms of spatial dimensions, drawing me to screen exploration techniques and helping me adjust easily to touch-enabled devices. I joined NVDA project after hearing a demo of NVDA running on a Samsung tablet with a preview build of Windows 8 installed in 2012, and like many, I was impressed with touch support on iOS and Android.

Cheers,

Joseph

Sorry for coming back to this so late, I haven’t looked at the list for a while.

 

Yes, Object Nav doesn’t even cut it for the mouse like review that Window-Eyes offered.

 

Even flat screen review doesn’t work nearly so well unfortunately.

 

And no, JAWS isn’t there with proper mouse like review either. I miss Window-Eyes for its almost literal screen review mode.

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Russell James
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2023 1:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does NVDA read a webpage or a word document ?

 

Hi Steve

 

Thanks for your post!

 

I use the GW micro vocalize and window eyes screen readers for many years and the accessibility provided by the mouse was very helpful to me!

 

When I started using nvda I began to discover issues with mouse support and started reporting these and learned that this was not a high priority

 

I still depend on these features everyday and continue to report related issues and recently realize that many of the new issues were coming from Firefox nightly and I'm trying to help identify and report those problems before they become issues for the stable Firefox browser.

Fortunately the developers at Mozilla are making this a priority and are working hard to resolve and collaborate.

 

Since using the Google TalkBack screen reader on Android and the explore by touch feature I now like to call this explore by mouse.

I really like to have the ability to randomly access the content on the screen using the mouse cursor.

I have never had the patience to access all the content on the screen that I wasn't interested in Reading

 

Russ

 

On Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 5:37 AM Steve Nutt <steve@...> wrote:

Hi Joseph,

 

I have never had sight, but I have always loved Window-Eyes ability to let you move the mouse pointer on the screen either to the PC, or by lines, words, chars, or even pixels.

 

No other screen reader to my knowledge has ever achieved that.

 

Not only that, with Window-Eyes, the mouse was always “live” so you didn’t have to go into a special mode to read around it.

 

Oh yes, there was a lot that Window-Eyes had that no screen reader has touched yet.

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 22 December 2022 16:40
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does NVDA read a webpage or a word document ?

 

Hi,

Mouse and touch interaction and navigation are always in our radar i.e. there were issues on GitHub in the past, and I did an all-nighter bac in May to bring improved mouse and touch interaction support for parts of Windows 11 user interface (it was both fun and a frustrating experience, to tell you the truth). At the moment our primary input scenario is the keyboard, followed by braille display hardware. But I do recognize the potential of mouse and touch interaction and have been a vocal advocate for improving the user experience for touchscreen users (me included). My enthusiasm for touchscreens became the reason for creating Enhanced Touch Gestures add-on back in 2013 (and I've been buying touch-capable laptops since), and the potential of mouse interaction was perhaps the biggest reason for maintaining Golden Cursor for some time (I'm no longer maintaining Golden Cursor, by the way). In fact, the upcoming version of Windows App Essentials add-on will include support for improved mouse and touch interaction scenarios in an upcoming change to Windows 11 Version 22H2.

Another possible reason for my enthusiasm for touchscreens (and mouse interaction to some extent) is that I had low vision until I lost my sight in my teens. Perhaps this experience helped me think in terms of spatial dimensions, drawing me to screen exploration techniques and helping me adjust easily to touch-enabled devices. I joined NVDA project after hearing a demo of NVDA running on a Samsung tablet with a preview build of Windows 8 installed in 2012, and like many, I was impressed with touch support on iOS and Android.

Cheers,

Joseph

Hi,

 

The problem though is that the JAWS cursor doesn’t move the mouse. So you still end up having to route the mouse, one extra keystroke, before you can click.

 

The invisible cursor can be tethered  to the mouse though I believe, so that’s probably the closest we’ll get.

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2023 3:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does NVDA read a webpage or a word document ?

 

I can't tell you exactly what Window-eyes offered compared with other screen-readers but I am not convinced that some, perhaps a good deal of your opinion is the result of not knowing some more obscure features in JAWS.  There is a command to move the JAWS cursor in very small increments.  I haven't used it for perhaps over a decade and I learned about it a long time ago.  And of course, you can move by line and word and carachter using the JAWS cursor.

You may prefer the Window-eyes mouse being separate and using separate commands.  I much prefer learning one set of navigation commands that work for the pc cursor and the mouse.  Once I know one set of commands, I know both.

The NVDA cursor may not be able to be moved by pixel, but you can move it by line, word and character or to the top and bottom of the screen.  If you know screen review commands and object review commands in NVDA,  you can move the mouse to the position you set screen review or the object navigator.

My point is not to just discuss Window-eyes compared with other screen-readers.  I'm writing because if people believe something is limited, incorrectly, they won't look for how to do things that can be done.  I think the matter should be further discussed.

Gene

On 1/10/2023 4:37 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi Joseph,

 

I have never had sight, but I have always loved Window-Eyes ability to let you move the mouse pointer on the screen either to the PC, or by lines, words, chars, or even pixels.

 

No other screen reader to my knowledge has ever achieved that.

 

Not only that, with Window-Eyes, the mouse was always “live” so you didn’t have to go into a special mode to read around it.

 

Oh yes, there was a lot that Window-Eyes had that no screen reader has touched yet.

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 22 December 2022 16:40
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Does NVDA read a webpage or a word document ?

 

Hi,

Mouse and touch interaction and navigation are always in our radar i.e. there were issues on GitHub in the past, and I did an all-nighter bac in May to bring improved mouse and touch interaction support for parts of Windows 11 user interface (it was both fun and a frustrating experience, to tell you the truth). At the moment our primary input scenario is the keyboard, followed by braille display hardware. But I do recognize the potential of mouse and touch interaction and have been a vocal advocate for improving the user experience for touchscreen users (me included). My enthusiasm for touchscreens became the reason for creating Enhanced Touch Gestures add-on back in 2013 (and I've been buying touch-capable laptops since), and the potential of mouse interaction was perhaps the biggest reason for maintaining Golden Cursor for some time (I'm no longer maintaining Golden Cursor, by the way). In fact, the upcoming version of Windows App Essentials add-on will include support for improved mouse and touch interaction scenarios in an upcoming change to Windows 11 Version 22H2.

Another possible reason for my enthusiasm for touchscreens (and mouse interaction to some extent) is that I had low vision until I lost my sight in my teens. Perhaps this experience helped me think in terms of spatial dimensions, drawing me to screen exploration techniques and helping me adjust easily to touch-enabled devices. I joined NVDA project after hearing a demo of NVDA running on a Samsung tablet with a preview build of Windows 8 installed in 2012, and like many, I was impressed with touch support on iOS and Android.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

Steve Nutt via groups.io wrote:

Yes, Object Nav doesn’t even cut it for the mouse like review that Window-Eyes offered.

Steve, do you know of any recorded demos of this? Either audio or video with audio? I haven't touched WinEyes in about 25 years, and don't remember this feature.

Luke

Window-eyes had two review modes, the WE Cursor and the mouse pointer.  But the Mouse pointer was, in essence, screen review that moved the mouse as you moved around the screen.  It was similar to the JAWS cursor and, Window-eyes had the ability to move by clip.  I don't remember just what that was and I don't recall if you might see something way you wouldn't in ordinary movement but my recollection is that it was largely a way to move faster through the screen.  The JAWS cursor and the Mouse Pointer would both see the same or very similar things.

Which people liked to use was largely a matter of preference.  Window-eyes screen review allowed you to use the numpad and had its own commands while in JAWS, the JAWS cursor used the same commands as you would use in an editor for movement, control home, control end, etc. 

Gene

On 4/25/2023 3:51 PM, Luke Davis wrote:

Steve Nutt via groups.io wrote:

Yes, Object Nav doesn’t even cut it for the mouse like review that Window-Eyes offered.

Steve, do you know of any recorded demos of this? Either audio or video with audio? I haven't touched WinEyes in about 25 years, and don't remember this feature.

Luke